Christian musicians - interesting link

[lovesinger]

[quote]Originally posted by Magical Pig: [b]If you dont want to discuss it anymore thats fine with me, but I'm not trying to be adversarial, unless you consider someone who has a different view of things as such. ...[/b][/quote]Big guy, maybe you read another post, not mine...if mine, I invite you to read it again. I'm all for discussing it {I'm a slowish Bible Method typist, too..you know: the "seek and you shall find" technique :) ) I just thought added insight about in what way I'd gladly keep sharing to make sure it's quality and not a quirky jousting tournament ad infinitum just for argument exercise. I look forward to sharing.

[Magical Pig]

[quote]Originally posted by lovesinger: [b] And if we spent time with every nit that's picked like these we'd have little time or energy to do what we need to do to make our own lives productive..... if you find fault with me saying that, keep living and discover how some people specialize in wasting your precious life with endless debating when they're not in quest for any greater understanding....... but it is more "Magical" than anything ever connected with that word ever could be. [ 01-05-2002: Message edited by: lovesinger ][/b][/quote] Sorry, I thought thats what the above statement was implying. And by the way, my screen name is a reference to a part in Frank Zappas "Joes Garage" album where Joe is yelling "MAGICAL PIG!" while having sex with a automated kitchen appliance that looks like cross between an industrial vacuum cleaner and a chrome piggy bank with marital aids stuck all over it. I enjoy the sick twisted humor... :)

[Chip McDonald]

I don't know where this thread is currently careening to, but I thought I'd pass along that last night I saw a huge tour bus parked in front of a church that said... "JEWS FOR JESUS" I don't understand anything anymore....

[rold]

No worries, Chip - neither do the rest of us :D

[Tedster]

Oh, this thread is just meandering along like a big ol' river. I think everyone with an artistic bent perhaps ponders things of a philosophic or spiritual nature. Musicians are passionate folks, or at least a lot of them, and it's good to ponder the meaning of life (and beyond) in polite company, as long as folks can refrain from name calling. This thread has been for the most part very refreshing...quite polite. Surprisingly polite, in fact.

[lovesinger]

[quote]Originally posted by Chip McDonald: [b]I don't know where this thread is currently careening to, but I thought I'd pass along that last night I saw a huge tour bus parked in front of a church that said... "JEWS FOR JESUS" I don't understand anything anymore....[/b][/quote] Chip, in case you're serious (I wouldn't think a man of your awareness hadn't heard of them) historically Jewish believers at large have not believed that Yeshua ha machia (Jesus the Messiah, of Nazareth) was/is the promised savior of Jewish prophecy. Some do _ that's them. Seems they're somewhat ostracised by believers in traditional Judaism. Several Messianic Jews, as they're referred to, have told me their traditional Jewish parents had funerals for them when they professed faith in Jesus Christ to proclaim they were "dead" to the family and no longer a son or daughter. Someone else (maybe Lee) may give you a better perspective on this from having grown up in the Judaic tradition.

[techristian]

How do I know that Jesus is real? I owe my very being to the navigator of my destiny. That is how I know. Feeling empty, when I was 18, I tried T.M. and a few other things that I don't want to brag about. I experienced an OUT OF BODY experience,(or just dreamed that I did) and shortly after was on a psychiatric ward. I was hospitalized for ,more than 2 weeks when they told my mother that I would be institutionalized. To make a long story short, she prayed for me and I was out of the hospital and on the road to recovery 2 weeks later. The next year I built my first PAIA synthesizer. That was 1975. Since then I have never spent a day in the hospital. I have held down a full time job for the last 27 years. I have seen great things. I have learned great things, and I suspect that I will be shown many more things. I was "born again" in 1982 and since then our music has been on satellite TV and DCTALK recorded our song. I have produced 2 music videos, BUT IF I EVER GET TO BELIEVE THAT IT WAS BY MY OWN STRENGTH I KNOW THAT I CAN BE EASILY REDUCED TO THAT BABBLING MAN OF 28 YEARS AGO. Jesus did it all, and if you don't believe it just wait a few more years to see what he has in store for me and the music world next. http://musicinit.com

[Charlie-brm]

[quote]Originally posted by Chip McDonald: [b]I don't know where this thread is currently careening to, but I thought I'd pass along that last night I saw a huge tour bus parked in front of a church that said... "JEWS FOR JESUS" I don't understand anything anymore....[/b][/quote] Not to be confused with "Jews LIKE Jesus" "That's what that red-neck said, as he hit the hardwood floor, they don't make Jews like Jesus anymore." (Kinky Freedman)

[lovesinger]

[quote]Originally posted by techristian: [QB]...I tried T.M. and a few other things that I don't want to brag about. I experienced an OUT OF BODY experience,(or just dreamed that I did) and shortly after was on a psychiatric ward. I was hospitalized for ,more than 2 weeks when they told my mother that I would be institutionalized. To make a long story short, she prayed for me and I was out of the hospital and on the road to recovery 2 weeks later.QB][/quote] [url=http://www.oakparkcog.org/btalk6.htm]You beat Nebuchadnezzar by 6 Years and 48 weeks[/url] ! :D :D BUT IF I EVER GET TO BELIEVE THAT IT WAS BY MY OWN STRENGTH I KNOW THAT I CAN BE EASILY REDUCED TO THAT BABBLING MAN OF 28 YEARS AGO. [/B][/QUOTE]Reminds me that Nebby tried TM too ... "Terrific Me", just before he went to the grasslands with the oxen. :) God Bless you, brother.

[strat0124]

Kinky Friedman had a great local hit in Tejas "They don't make Jews like Jesus anymore", although it was a fab song, the protestant movements around the state raised Cain, and had it banned for a bit. I am Christian, but believe tolerance is primo. The fundamentalist folks I know make no bones about their LACK of tolerance that don't believe as they do. Maybe thats where some non Christians and Christians alike get turned off, not even counting the Televangelists that drive big Pink Cadillacs. Having said that its also important that others who claim a tolerant view to actually do so, with religeous views. All the "I am ......., Accept me", applies except a Christian view. U2 and Bob Marley are the only ones I can think of who talk openly about God in the mainstream and don't get hammered about it.

[lovesinger]

[quote]Originally posted by Magical Pig: [b]I like discussing things like this with people...who dont agree with me because its interesting to me to see what makes other people tick, and what theyre thinking.[/b][/quote]Hi again, Scott -- it's been a busy weekend, and thanks for the previous invite to chat. As promised here's a start for our interchange (of course all can chime in). It's a part of (and link to) a larger page divulging some of what makes us tick that you may have never heard before. It tends to shed light on the personalness of it all and its many benefits to you/me the INDIVIDUAL Christ trust-er, contrary to the 'herd mentality' and 'head in the sand' feeling some have about where we're coming from. Tell me whatcha think. And briefly aside to recording: how's your HD24 workin for you? And do you use it mostly for live location jobs as your home page suggests or studio tracking as well? >>------> [quote] [url=http://members.aol.com/augusteen/Godless.html]"It has been said by someone that \'the proper study of mankind is man.\' I will not oppose the idea, but I believe it is equally true that the proper study of God\'s elect is God; the proper study of a Christian is the Godhead. The highest science, the loftiest speculation, the mightiest philosophy, which can ever engage the attention of a child of God, is the name, the nature, the person, the work, the doings, and the existence of the great God whom he calls his Father. [/url] There is something exceedingly improving to the mind in a contemplation of the Divinity. It is a subject so vast, that all our thoughts are lost in its immensity; so deep, that our pride is drowned in its infinity. No subject of contemplation will tend more to humble the mind, than thoughts of God... But while the subject humbles the mind, it also expands it. He who often thinks of God, will have a larger mind than the man who simply plods around this narrow globe... The most excellent study for expanding the soul, is the science of Christ, and Him crucified, and the knowledge of the Godhead in the glorious Trinity. Nothing will so enlarge the intellect, nothing so magnify the whole soul of man, as a devout, earnest, continued investigation of the great subject of the Deity. And, while humbling and expanding, this subject is eminently consolatory. Oh, there is, in contemplating Christ, a balm for every wound; in musing on the Father, there is a quietus for every grief; and in the influence of the Holy Ghost, there is a balsam for every sore. Would you lose your sorrow? Would you drown your cares? Then go, plunge yourself in the Godhead's deepest sea; be lost in his immensity; and you shall come forth as from a couch of rest, refreshed and invigorated. I know of nothing which can so comfort the soul, so calm the swelling of billows of sorrow and grief, so speak peace to the winds of trial, as a devout musing upon the subject of the Godhead. [/quote] Peace, Love and success, friend.

[Uh Clem]

[quote]It's been said that THE PROBABILITY that all of the systematically ultra-complex life that we presently know from microcosm to macrocosm assembling itself from a random cosmic collection of subatomic particles, elements and energy in the unmeasurably ultra-huge area we call "space" into celestial bodies occupying their own domains, and gravitational (like solar) planetary system "neighborhoods", materials and zoological tissues (skin, hair), then those tissues combining into thriving humano-animal-beings dynamically interdependent and sustained by the other similarly awesome enviro-systems ----is the same probability that a bunch of parts thrown up in the air will somehow become a car. [/quote] Some logician out there chime in - I'm pretty sure that there's a term for this kind of improper logic that I can't think of right now. At any rate, you have, at best, presented a case that the universe is not a random set of events which does not neccessarily imply God as the explanation. "I cannot understand this, therefore it must be supernatural". That is a fairly easy approach, but it is overly simplistic. If I, having been isolated all my life, finally ran across a car, would my only choices for explanation of its existance be: "these parts were thrown into the air and made a car - fabulous" or "how wonderful, God made this car"? What you have is [b]faith[/b] (Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.) - it is fundamental to religion. This cannot be argued successfully with Logic (but, maybe with ProTools ;) ) and there is certainly no material proof. You have to want to have the faith to have it - you may even need to have it - it is a leap from the comfort of logic and proof that you have to make in our own mind. I'm perfectly commfortable, for the time being, not knowing if there are aliens, ghosts, lucky numbers, Gods, telepaths, magic audio cables, ruins of Atlantis, vortices in Sedona, crop circles, reincarnates, time travelers, true Elvis sightings, a second gunman, dream goblins, and dozens of other bits of conjecture - don't laugh, there are people who earnestly believe in this stuff. It could all be real - I have no way of disproving any of it...or proving any of it.

[ViLo]

[quote]Originally posted by stevepow: [b] Some logician out there chime in - I'm pretty sure that there's a term for this kind of improper logic that I can't think of right now. At any rate, you have, at best, presented a case that the universe is not a random set of events which does not neccessarily imply God as the explanation. "I cannot understand this, therefore it must be supernatural". That is a fairly easy approach, but it is overly simplistic. If I, having been isolated all my life, finally ran across a car, would my only choices for explanation of its existance be: "these parts were thrown into the air and made a car - fabulous" or "how wonderful, God made this car"? What you have is [b]faith[/b] (Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.) - it is fundamental to religion. This cannot be argued successfully with Logic (but, maybe with ProTools ;) ) and there is certainly no material proof. You have to want to have the faith to have it - you may even need to have it - it is a leap from the comfort of logic and proof that you have to make in our own mind. I'm perfectly commfortable, for the time being, not knowing if there are aliens, ghosts, lucky numbers, Gods, telepaths, magic audio cables, ruins of Atlantis, vortices in Sedona, crop circles, reincarnates, time travelers, true Elvis sightings, a second gunman, dream goblins, and dozens of other bits of conjecture - don't laugh, there are people who earnestly believe in this stuff. It could all be real - I have no way of disproving any of it...or proving any of it.[/b][/quote] Hummmm..........

[Magical Pig]

lovesinger,(do you actually sing love songs, nothing but lovesongs?) ;) The only thing that quote needs is a IMHO. I fear we'll have to agree to disagree cause that all sounds like propaganda to me or at best, the statement of someones opinion. Much of it just seems laughable to me. But like I said before, If it helps you do want you gotta do and be a happier person, thats great. Just be aware that everyone is different, and what works for one doesnt work for another. So what seems like the cats pajamas to you may be completely ridiculous to others. As far as the HD24 goes, I have only used it for location recording so far because my nuendo rig does everything I need in the studio. But its been great so far. Certainly better than luging around 3 XT20s and changing 3 tapes every 35-40 minutes. I would highly recommend it.

[rold]

[quote]Originally posted by Magical Pig: [b]lovesinger,(do you actually sing love songs, nothing but lovesongs?) ;) .[/b][/quote] hmm....I think I'd rather have him singing love songs than singing "Youre going to hell, you sinner.." and dementing the minds of his congregation :p :D [quote][b] The only thing that quote needs is a IMHO. I fear we'll have to agree to disagree cause that all sounds like propaganda to me or at best, the statement of someones opinion. Much of it just seems laughable to me. But like I said before, If it helps you do want you gotta do and be a happier person, thats great. Just be aware that everyone is different, and what works for one doesnt work for another. So what seems like the cats pajamas to you may be completely ridiculous to others..[/b][/quote] Very well said, dude! Peace, Harold

[vintagevibe]

These posts are mostly useless. You can't have a productive argument with a Christian (or any BELIEVER" for that matter. They are true believers. Truth, evidence and reality are no match for their beliefs. Truth is never found by first deciding to believe something and then trying to make reality fit your believe. Truth is found by opening your mind and heart and senses to the creation on all its levels and trying to understand it. If you have to believe any scripture you will also have to disbelieve anything that threatens your belief and you will therefore be required to close your mind and heart to anything that doesn't fit your belief system. What you end up with is people who believe the world is 6000 years old. You can't reason with the "scripture worshipers".

[rold]

>> You can't reason with the "scripture worshipers". << Particularly when those scriptures contradict themselves and have been "editted" and ammended to fit cultural norms.. ;)

[techristian]

I could have taken the same approach that I took 14 years ago. Back then (in the BBS DAYS) I had a thread going for over a month with over 250 messages. Back then we took the approach of proving God with SCIENCE. We discussed everything from GRAVITY bending LIGHT, TIME AND SPACE to trying to reason how the first single cell animal could possible develop 4 entire systems in a single mutation. This argument usually stops all "scientists" cold. How could the first living organism develop all 3 systems 1) Reproduction 2) Respiration 3) Digestion All at once? From a RANDOM mutation? Remember that these are entire SYSTEMS with HUNDREDS OF CELLS in each. You need more faith to believe that this could happen all at once than I need to believe in a designer. If any one of the 3 are removed the organizm will not be sustainable. But of course we're not going to talk science this time. Let me put it another way. How many "levelheaded" athiests believe in E.T. ? Dan http://musicinit.com

[techristian]

Correction.....I meant hundreds of MOLECULES in each system. Not CELLS. There are single celled creatures. 14 years is rough on the memory. Dan

[Tedster]

"Everybody believes in something. I believe I'll have another beer." Well, I'm not sure who originated the above quote, but it is in part correct. Everybody believes in something, even atheists, agnostics, what have you. Everyone has a system of beliefs about the origin of things (some form of "religion"), be it based upon scientific observation or ancient writings. And, "scientific observations" about the things that happened eons ago are largely conjectural. Scientists will tell you "We believe thus and such based upon such and thus", but it really can't be substantiated completely, and many top notch scientists spend the bulk of their time disagreeing with other top notch scientists about their conclusions. I posted earlier about my views on a "literal interpretation of the Bible".

[D. Gauss]

[quote]Originally posted by Chip McDonald: [QB]I thought I'd pass along that last night I saw a huge tour bus parked in front of a church that said... "JEWS FOR JESUS" [QB][/quote] they are somewhat more popular than that other fringe group: "Christians for Crucifixion" -d. gauss

[Uh Clem]

[quote]Originally posted by techristian: [b]... This argument usually stops all "scientists" cold. How could the first living organism develop all 3 systems 1) Reproduction 2) Respiration 3) Digestion Dan http://musicinit.com [/b][/quote] This is another application of an incorrect assumption or assertion being used to build evidence for a case where no real evidence exists. Spontaneous development of the three systems you mentioned above is not part of any theory in science and I'm guessing there were no geneticists, biochemists, or biologists on your old BBS to help clear that up. The first replicating molecules were most likely RNA. RNA is a nucleic acid similar to DNA. In laboratory studies it has been shown that some RNA sequences have catalytic capabilities. Most importantly, certain RNA sequences act as polymerases -- enzymes that form strands of RNA from its monomers. This process of self replication is the crucial step in the formation of life. This is called the RNA world hypothesis. This could be called reproduction - realize at this point, these were only complex molecular chains and not really plants or animals with the more complex systems in place you describe. So the simple answer to your question is that those systems did not necessarily come about all at once. There are some pretty good explanations for this early life development along with fossil evidence to support them. It is a difficult field of study and no doubt the experts don't all agree on some of the fine points, so it is no wonder that a "musicians" forum may not provide the most in depth answers to the complex question you propose. What an aetheist and ET have to do with this is not clear. [ 01-08-2002: Message edited by: stevepow ]

[Uh Clem]

[quote]Originally posted by Tedster: [QB ...and many top notch scientists spend the bulk of their time disagreeing with other top notch scientists about their conclusions. [/QB][/quote] Really? What a coincidence: I was on an Acoustical Physics BBS where these guys were discussing [i]Acoustic Radiation of a Free-Flooded Piezoceramic Shell[/i] - and don't get me started on that - at any rate, they commented that "audio guys" didn't know squat about accoustics and were merely lucky to produce any recorded music worth a listen. They felt that many top notch audio engineers spend the bulk of their time disagreeing with other top notch audio engineers about... religion :eek: :p :D [ 01-08-2002: Message edited by: stevepow ]

[Dave Bryce]

[quote]Originally posted by techristian: [b]This argument usually stops all "scientists" cold. How could the first living organism develop all 3 systems 1) Reproduction 2) Respiration 3) Digestion All at once? From a RANDOM mutation?[/b][/quote] I'm not a scientist, nor can I answer that question. My response to questions like that is this - I just say "I don't know". I'm okay with accepting that there seem to be things that appear to me to be beyond the grasp of my simple human brain. I do not believe that just because something is beyond my understanding that it is not possible. Since we're asking questions, perhaps I might ask a few: According to the Bible, Adam and Eve were the first people on Earth - or so I have been led to believe is the case. They had two sons - Cain and Abel. In Genesis 4:8, Cain kills Abel. I won't even go into asking why God preferred Abel's offering of meat to Cain's vegetarian offering - that one has just never made sense to me...anyway, by my count, that leaves three people on the planet - Adam, Eve and Cain. Is this generally held to be correct? In Genesis 4:14, Cain says, "I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me". To whom was he referring? They can't be figments of Cain's imagination, because in Genesis 4:15, God answers Cain, saying " if anyone kills Cain, he will suffer vengeance seven times over". Who were these other people? Where did they come from? Or was God referring to Adam and Eve? It seems to me that there had to be some other people, because in Genesis 4:17, it says,"Cain lay with his wife, and she became pregnant". Where did she come from? Why wasn't she mentioned until this point? Now, I know that earlier on in the Bible (Genesis 1:27) it says that "God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them". God continues (in Genesis 1:28) to bless them and tell them to "be fruitful and increase in number". Does this refer to Adam and Eve, who don't seem to appear until Genesis 2:7 and Genesis 2:22 respectively? Or, were there people before Adam and Eve? Reading about Adam's creation in Genesis 2:7, I always interpreted that as indicating that he was the first man. Is this not the case? Weren't Adam and Eve the people that God created on the sixth day (Genesis 1:24 - 1:31)? I am sure that I am not the first person to ask these questions - how do those of you who believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible interpret this? I am not mocking anyone or anything - I just have never understood this, nor have I yet heard an answer that made sense to me. One more...the dinosaurs - what's the deal there? One gentleman told me that dinosaur bones/ fossils were created by Satan to shake man's faith in God and the Creation. Is this a commonly held response to this question? Always interested in theological discussions, dB [ 01-08-2002: Message edited by: Dave Bryce ]

[Tedster]

[quote]Originally posted by stevepow: [b] Really? What a coincidence: I was on an Acoustical Physics BBS where these guys were discussing [i]Acoustic Radiation of a Free-Flooded Piezoceramic Shell[/i] - and don't get me started on that - at any rate, they commented that "audio guys" didn't know squat about accoustics and were merely lucky to produce any recorded music worth a listen. They felt that many top notch audio engineers spend the bulk of their time disagreeing with other top notch audio engineers about... religion :eek: :p :D [ 01-08-2002: Message edited by: stevepow ][/b][/quote] HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Thanks Steve, what a hoot!

[rold]

damn - does this open the possibility of Cain's wife being Eve? Doh! So THAT'S what happened! It's all god's fault! You inbred humanity! You Bastard! :D

[fantasticsound]

[quote]Originally posted by lovesinger: [b] Chip, in case you're serious (I wouldn't think a man of your awareness hadn't heard of them) historically Jewish believers at large have not believed that Yeshua ha machia (Jesus the Messiah, of Nazareth) was/is the promised savior of Jewish prophecy. Some do _ that's them. Seems they're somewhat ostracised by believers in traditional Judaism. Several Messianic Jews, as they're referred to, have told me their traditional Jewish parents had funerals for them when they professed faith in Jesus Christ to proclaim they were "dead" to the family and no longer a son or daughter. Someone else (maybe Lee) may give you a better perspective on this from having grown up in the Judaic tradition.[/b][/quote] There is no such thing as a "Jew for Jesus." These are Christians, plain and simple. I don't care how they profess to live, believe, or pray. There is one fundamental difference between Jews and Christians. [b][i]Christians believe in Jesus as Savior, and Jews don't.[/b][/i] Therefore, a "Jew for Jesus," is by definition, a Christian. That said, Jews for Jesus has made it their mission to convert every Jew to Christianity. They have made deliberate attempts to evangelize to Jews using code words which don't sound like they're attempting to convert. Please do not use JFJ as an example of good Christians who are tolerant and respectful of other religeons. They're not. It's simply easier to convert Jews to Christianity when your church has the word Jew in it. Here is a link to a story in the Nashville Scene, involving Rev. Don Finto and the former rabbi of our temple, Rabbi Fuchs. It addresses some important points on attempts to convert non-believers, specifically, Jews. It also illustrates the arrogance that puts off so many of the agnostic and athiest posters here, as well as the non-affiliated spiritual people among us. I'm glad to say that Jews are supposed to live as an example, not actively convert non-Jews. It's a recognition that people will either, "get it,", or they won't. We must still live by the teachings of the Torah. One note; It's a long article to read. [url=http://weeklywire.com/ww/06-13-97/nash_cover.html]Sermon on converting Jews by Don Finto and response by Rabbi Stephen Fuchs.[/url] [ 01-08-2002: Message edited by: fantasticsound ]

[Tedster]

Hey, Dave... Good questions, all... I believe (as I said before) the Bible...but I don't necessarily believe in the note-for-note literal interpretation of Genesis, as much of it is allegorical. Keep in mind that the first books were oral traditions, passed down from generation to generation until the time of Moses, when much seems to have been finally put in writing (probably after Moses' time). The Bible does refer to other humans during the period of Adam and Eve. Me, personally? I believe the importance of the whole Adam and Eve story is humans "becoming aware"...acquiring that elusive thing which is known to us as a conscience. That, to me, is far more important than just "Adam and Eve" being the "first humans". If this is true, it supports what is referred to as "evolution" (and those are very important quotes around "evolution") with the idea that it was an engineering advance to create a being that could determine "good from evil", which arguably is what separates us from other animals. Mind you, the above are just my own personal thoughts on the issue. As for dinosaurs, there is a reference (in the book of Job, I believe) as to God being He who created Leviathan...indicating some acknowledgement of huge beasts of some sort. Of course, according to the fossil record, humans didn't appear for millions of years after the dinosaurs became extinct, but could it be possible that, just as today, fossil skeletons became apparent even then? Who knows? I sure don't. Just more random thoughts at 2:30 am...

[Tusker]

Interesting question and answer session. More questions than answers, I think but perhaps that is a sign of health. My question is... why is it that almost any thread dealing with christian musicians or christian music devolves into a debate over beliefs. Could it be... the nature of these beliefs, the predisposition of the those who hold these beliefs, the predisposition of those who don't, or some other reason. I am enjoying this thread, and I am not suggesting we stop at all, just wondering why we behave so predictably? Or maybe my observation is not correct? Regards, Jerry

[Philip OKeefe]

[quote]Originally posted by Tusker: [b]Interesting question and answer session. More questions than answers, I think but perhaps that is a sign of health. My question is... why is it that almost any thread dealing with christian musicians or christian music devolves into a debate over beliefs. Could it be... the nature of these beliefs, the predisposition of the those who hold these beliefs, the predisposition of those who don't, or some other reason. I am enjoying this thread, and I am not suggesting we stop at all, just wondering why we behave so predictably? Or maybe my observation is not correct? Regards, Jerry[/b][/quote] Please note I've been absent for a significant length of this thread. ;) Look folks, I have my beliefs, and I make NO attempts to force anyone to accept them, NOR do I apologize for them. My intent was certainly NOT evangelical in nature in posting this thread - my LIFE needs to be my evangelism, or my words are meaningless. And my words will not convince anyone on matters of faith if they chose to believe otherwise. And I fully support and respect the rights of others to their own beliefs. Since such topics DO usually devolve into these sorts of predictable / pointless discussions where the irresistable force attempts to budge the immoveable object, I just tend to "drop out" at that point. But the original intention was not meant to start all of this. It was simply a post directing others with similar interests to a site I felt they may find interesting. If you're NOT interested, that's great and I respect that. I merely state my position and move on, and you can do the same, or just flat out ignore it. Those who agree are free to do so, as are those who disagree. But the intent was just to let people who may want to discuss Christian specific music issues / artists to a site where others ARE interested in those things... If that sort of thing isn't for you, I can't understand why you'd object in any way to a thread designed to move that sort of traffic somewhere else OTHER THAN here... But I do appreciate all the discussions, and I'm all for those - even when people DON'T all agree! ;) [img]http://www.freakygamers.com/smilies/s2/contrib/navigator/usa.gif[/img] Phil O'Keefe Sound Sanctuary Recording Riverside CA http://www.ssrstudio.com pokeefe777@ssrstudio.com