lovesinger Posted January 4, 2002 Posted January 4, 2002 [quote]Originally posted by strat0124: [b]Lovesinger....is the picture you posted you?[/b][/quote] No way, Doc! It's a glamour shot of Harry Potter's super rich creator in a witching promotional pic. The original's here: http://www.time.com/time/poy2000/rowling.html . Here's another untouched. [img]http://www.cliphoto.com/potter/rowling1.jpg[/img] -- Music has miracle potential --
In Christ Posted January 4, 2002 Posted January 4, 2002 :( Magical and 'rold, you know very little of Christ, so please don't act like you do by judging. Jesus is "not" a tolerant man, however He will let anyone go to Hell if they so desire. But no one who conducts themselves in a unholy manner, "willfully", will be allowed into Heaven, or "Gods Dwelling". Just one good reason is, the angel formally known as Lucifier displayed the kind of damage that can be done by "loose cannons". Lucifier led 1/3 of Gods beloved angels to turn against Him, never again. So if you want to do whatever, hey go for it. God established this free society buy His own hand so that people could choose and I for one think it's great that man has the right to choose how he conducts his life. Call me what you will no sweat, I'll even give you some pointers on how to sin properly, the next time you look at or watch something pornagraphic you may as well go pick-up some chick to bang instead if "Rosie". Because its the samthing. The "wages" will be paid either by you or by Christ, your choice. And don't get hung up on the word sin, it just means to "miss the mark" or to not live up to the standard that has been put into place by the one that makes our hearts beat and or lungs breathe. All of us will be judged by the same standard. Its just that some of us will have an advocate to testify that we tried. Roman and Greek mythology are farces and don't come close to telling us how we got here. But the Bible is the "most" historically confirmed book on the planet. Second only to some of Homers work, you know that greek guy. Not Simpson, :p Even science is coming to grips with this, man is made up of mostly carbon or (dirt in laymans' terms) and water, "from the dust of the earth". "Big Boom Theory confirmed", or maybe the effects of light exploding onto the scene at approx. 10,000 mi. per sec. at the command, " Light Be". Anyway I always say it is easier to join the whiners then to see something wrong and see to it personally that something is said or done to change it. In Christ, James John 3:16 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. (ASV) Jamey
lovesinger Posted January 4, 2002 Posted January 4, 2002 Blessings, James. I appreciate your tough-love strength. -- Music has miracle potential --
rold Posted January 4, 2002 Posted January 4, 2002 [quote]Originally posted by jbtiffee@netzero.net: [b] :( Magical and 'rold, you know very little of Christ, so please don't act like you do by judging. [/b][/quote] Well, I by no means had any illusions on who *doesn't* hold the monopoly on judging, but I'd have to say, by FAR, I've seen more judging in the "church of christ" than I have anywhere else. [quote][b] Jesus is "not" a tolerant man, however He will let anyone go to Hell if they so desire. [/b][/quote] Well, that's assuming a "hell" even exists :rolleyes: Just because you and others believe it does, doesn't make it so. Also, from what I have read, Jesus was a MUCH more tolerant man than those who live their lives hosting radio and TV talk shows slandering and blasting practically everything Left and anything "unChristian", with their followers burning children's books for being inspired by a different religion, and blowing up abortion clinics. Tell me, James, where do you guys draw the line on hipocracy? [quote][b] But no one who conducts themselves in a unholy manner, "willfully", will be allowed into Heaven, or "Gods Dwelling". Just one good reason is, the angel formally known as Lucifier displayed the kind of damage that can be done by "loose cannons". Lucifier led 1/3 of Gods beloved angels to turn against Him, never again.[/b][/quote] Back to the fairy tale from hell, eh? Sorry dude - I don't subscribe to that nonsense. [quote][b]So if you want to do whatever, hey go for it..[/b][/quote] Thank you.. :D [quote][b]God established this free society buy His own hand so that people could choose and I for one think it's great that man has the right to choose how he conducts his life. ..[/b][/quote] Um, no - HUMAN BEINGS (you know - the ones who you could actually have a CONVERSATION with) created this society. If it were up to the church, you really think man could conduct himself the way he wanted? Shall we revisit the Inquisition for a historical lesson here? [quote][b]Call me what you will no sweat, I'll even give you some pointers on how to sin properly, the next time you look at or watch something pornagraphic you may as well go pick-up some chick to bang instead if "Rosie". [/b][/quote] You know - that reminds me of the whole "free yourself by joining God" garbage the church taught. What kind of freedom do you have if you can't even let your THOUGHTS be free? [quote][b] Because its the samthing. The "wages" will be paid either by you or by Christ, your choice. And don't get hung up on the word sin, it just means to "miss the mark" or to not live up to the standard that has been put into place by the one that makes our hearts beat and or lungs breathe. All of us will be judged by the same standard. Its just that some of us will have an advocate to testify that we tried.[/b][/quote] So you are saying because the monkey in the sky says it's so, the rest of us DIDN'T try to be good people? You know, James, everyone who knows me on these forums knows that I usually approach these kinds of discussions with some decency and restraint. But while I see your band of lunatics holding public children's books burnings, stirring up hate in the public to the point where the minions have an "excuse" to bomb medical clinics, preach hate towards homosexuals, feminists, self-declare your religion as the one that should shape our countries' freedoms, I'm sorry but - I don't even have so much of an INKLING to be decent in discussing this. :D [quote][b]Roman and Greek mythology are farces and don't come close to telling us how we got here. [/b][/quote] If you want to talk about farces, start with your own. [quote][b]But the Bible is the "most" historically confirmed book on the planet. [/b][/quote] Confirmed by what? By who? You bring me the slightest HINT of evidence Moses parted the sea, or Jesus turned water into wine and turned a loaf of bread into 5000, perhaps I'll reconsider my stance. But at this point, I don't see ANY reason to. [quote][b]Second only to some of Homers work, you know that greek guy. Not Simpson, :p Even science is coming to grips with this, man is made up of mostly carbon or (dirt in laymans' terms) and water, "from the dust of the earth". "Big Boom Theory confirmed", or maybe the effects of light exploding onto the scene at approx. 10,000 mi. per sec. at the command, " Light Be".[/b][/quote] Can you point me to a fragment of REAL science that accepts the theory that some being in the sky commanded all of this to happen? (And I don't mean Christian Science) [quote][b]Anyway I always say it is easier to join the whiners then to see something wrong and see to it personally that something is said or done to change it. In Christ, James[/b][/quote] Wise words - maybe you should spread them through the various churches and "Christian" talk show hosts - might make the world a more peaceful place to live.. :) meh
RobT Posted January 4, 2002 Posted January 4, 2002 'rold no body is arguing with you man. You have a right to believe what you want. Most of the fellow Christians on this forum and in real life will readily admit that there have been terrible atrocities committed in the 'name' of God. This is a fact of in other religions also. As far as absolute proof. I can't offer that. There are many books and online references to biblical archeology. Many historical events in the bible have been chroniceled in 'secular' documents from the coinciding time period. Egyptian hieroglyphics document the Jewish rebellion and exodus from Egypt. As far as having a conversation with GOD I do believe that that is what prayer is called. I think the mistake that many people make is lumping what one person does who belongs to a particular group together with the whole. Kind of like racism. I am a Christian and I don't agree with a lot of what is said in a lot of pulpits and by televangelists every day. You can't assume a monolithic view of any group. Whether is a group who is associated by what they believe or by skin color. Reminds of Sept 11, 2001. I grew up in a city with a heavy Lebanese, Chaldean, North African and Arabic population. Some of them are Christian, some are various Muslim denominations. I really prayed that NO INNOCENT one of them would suffer prejudice, hurt or repercussions because of what happened that day. I wonder how many other Americans could truly say the same. Is the world a perfect place? No. Do bad things happen to good people? Sometimes. Is GOD the cause of it all? No. As someone else on this thread stated sin is defined as missing the mark. There is a whole lot of that going on in the world. As one of my favorite bumper stickers says: 'Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven' RobT RobT Famous Musical Quotes: "I would rather play Chiquita Banana and have my swimming pool than play Bach and starve" - Xavier Cugat
Magical Pig Posted January 4, 2002 Posted January 4, 2002 What bothers me about devoutly religious people is that they state their BELIEFS as if they were FACTS. It isnt a FACT that God did this or God did that, but simply what you have decided to BELIVE IN. You cant PROVE to me or anyone else that God exists or ever did or said any of the things youre saying. And the problem is that alot (NOT ALL MIND YOU) of these people convince themselves so completely that theyre willing to intrude into the lives of others based on what they have been told their UNPROVEN deity wants. If you would just leave other people alone and practice your religion it would be a much better world. As for the witchcraft and satin worship thing being a reason to burn childrens entertainment, thats so stupid its laughable. Its the exact same thing as the Taliban blowing up 1500 year old Buddha statues because they thought it somehow went against their religion. I live a good, moral life and try to treat people like I want to be treated, if I die and find out their is a God, and he wants to punish me for not jumping through what I see as illogical hoops all my life, then so be it. I'll flip him off, and pack my bags for the 'ol H-E-double hocky sticks and go hang out with the other 5 trillion (give or take a zillion) people that will be there. According to the Talking Heads, Heaven is a place where nothing happens. Sounds kinda boring to me.... ;) [ 01-03-2002: Message edited by: Magical Pig ] Scott Benson www.syborgstudios.com
RobT Posted January 4, 2002 Posted January 4, 2002 [quote]Originally posted by Magical Pig: [b]What bothers me about devoutly religious people is that they state their BELIEFS as if they were FACTS. It isnt a FACT that God did this or God did that, but simply what you have decided to BELIVE IN. You cant PROVE to me or anyone else that God exists or ever did or said any of the things youre saying. [/b][/quote] Granted a lot of devout religious folks come off as arrogant. But faith requires confidence and assurance even in the worst of times. To some Christian denominations my life may not be one that is 'saved all the way'. To other's I might seem a bit extreme. I make the effort to follow what Jesus taught and not what man has taught. That's a denominational difference. Some Christian brethern can rub folks the wrong way. People rub people the wrong way Christian or not. No one can disprove or has disproven the existance of God either. One either believes in something greater than one's self or one does not. The belief system one accepts is based on one's life experience and acceptance of what is and isn't truth. All I'm saying is don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Your going to believe what you want. [quote]Originally posted by Magical Pig: [b] According to the Talking Heads, Heaven is a place where nothing happens. Sounds kinda boring to me.... ;) [/b][/quote] David Byrne - Theologian ?!? That sounds kinda scary to me ..... [img]http://www.duhspot.com/users/smiley/s/cwm/cwm/eek2.gif[/img] RobT Famous Musical Quotes: "I would rather play Chiquita Banana and have my swimming pool than play Bach and starve" - Xavier Cugat
Tedster Posted January 4, 2002 Posted January 4, 2002 Yep, I'm sure the Talking Heads had some unique insight into that. I like the way Rob T (BTW, how's the Matchbox thing going? :D ) put it. I'm the same way, to some denominations I'm on the slippery slope, and to others, I'm on a maybe more shallow slope :D . (Warning, public profession of faith follows) Okay, the Tedster acknowledges Christ as his personal Savior. That said, I'm extremely human, and I screw up a lot. I know I swear. I have a drink occasionally (so did Jesus, they accused Him of being a "winebiber"). I'm probably guilty of (at least in my thoughts) breaking every one of the Ten Commandments. I'd like to think my heart's in the right place, though, and with a little help from on high, that will be forgiven. The thing I always wonder about is that Jesus, a Jew, came and hung out with sinners...and violently denounced the "Holy Rollers" of the day...the Pharisees...the main guys in organized religion. They were the "Televangelists of the day" (although I'm sure some of their hearts were in the right places). The Pharisees went around pointing their fingers at sinners. Basically Jesus said it's what's in your heart, and the Pharisees' hearts were "full of old bones and decay"...while outwardly appearing righteous. Jesus didn't come to start a new religion...he came to fulfill an old one. "Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine"
Magical Pig Posted January 4, 2002 Posted January 4, 2002 [quote]Originally posted by Tedster: The thing I always wonder about is that Jesus, a Jew, came and hung out with sinners...and violently denounced the "Holy Rollers" of the day...the Pharisees...the main guys in organized religion. They were the "Televangelists of the day" (although I'm sure some of their hearts were in the right places). The Pharisees went around pointing their fingers at sinners. Basically Jesus said it's what's in your heart, and the Pharisees' hearts were "full of old bones and decay"...while outwardly appearing righteous. Jesus didn't come to start a new religion...he came to fulfill an old one.[/QB][/quote] That is a great point! I appreciate your thoughtful point of view. It was denouncing the money changers in the temple (scumbags making money off the church) that really got him into shit if I'm not mistaken. If Jesus was around today, he'd surely hang out with sinner musician types! And the Talking Heads reference was just a joke- hence the "winky smiley face" do-hicky. That IS a great song, though..... Scott Benson www.syborgstudios.com
RobT Posted January 4, 2002 Posted January 4, 2002 [quote]Originally posted by Magical Pig: [b] If Jesus was around today, he'd surely hang out with sinner musician types! And the Talking Heads reference was just a joke- hence the "winky smiley face" do-hicky. That IS a great song, though.....[/b][/quote] Yeah I'm sure he would too. I think a lot of folks sitting in pews would be VERY surprised. I got the Talking Heads joke [img]http://www.theunholytrinity.org/cracks_smileys/otn/realhappy/xxrotflmao.gif[/img] My reply was meant to be just as tongue-in-cheek. No offense or slam was meant to ya' Magical Pig. Hopefully none was taken. RobT [img]http://www.freakygamers.com/smilies/s2/contrib/ruinkai/biggrinhat.gif[/img] [ 01-04-2002: Message edited by: RobT ] RobT Famous Musical Quotes: "I would rather play Chiquita Banana and have my swimming pool than play Bach and starve" - Xavier Cugat
lovesinger Posted January 4, 2002 Posted January 4, 2002 [quote]Originally posted by Tedster: [b]Yep, I'm sure the Talking Heads had some unique insight into that. I like the way Rob T (BTW, how's the Matchbox thing going? :D ) put it. I'm the same way, to some denominations I'm on the slippery slope, and to others, I'm on a maybe more shallow slope :D . (Warning, public profession of faith follows) Okay, the Tedster acknowledges Christ as his personal Savior. That said, I'm extremely human, and I screw up a lot. I know I swear. I have a drink occasionally (so did Jesus, they accused Him of being a "winebiber"). I'm probably guilty of (at least in my thoughts) breaking every one of the Ten Commandments. I'd like to think my heart's in the right place, though, and with a little help from on high, that will be forgiven. The thing I always wonder about is that Jesus, a Jew, came and hung out with sinners...and violently denounced the "Holy Rollers" of the day...the Pharisees...the main guys in organized religion. They were the "Televangelists of the day" (although I'm sure some of their hearts were in the right places). The Pharisees went around pointing their fingers at sinners. Basically Jesus said it's what's in your heart, and the Pharisees' hearts were "full of old bones and decay"...while outwardly appearing righteous. Jesus didn't come to start a new religion...he came to fulfill an old one.[/b][/quote] Go TED!! :) Go TED!! :) Go TED!! :) Go TED!! :) And I love the way you did Talking Heads sarcasm with a no-smiley simple sentence! :D -- Music has miracle potential --
strat0124 Posted January 4, 2002 Posted January 4, 2002 To Lovesinger......I'm a sucker for Redheads...thanks for the pic..... To all: Ole Sigmund knows the truth....now. Down like a dollar comin up against a yen, doin pretty good for the shape I'm in
SFOracle Posted January 4, 2002 Posted January 4, 2002 If Jesus were around (physically) today, what would his message be? Who are the pharisees of our society? Who are the sinners and outcasts? I can't judge, but I am sure there are many who claim to be doing things in His name that He would rebuke today and many of the overlooked or dispised "sinners" whom He would choose to associate with and direct His message to. One thing I am sure of is that His message and His life would, just as it did 2000 years ago, confront us all and cause us to examine our prejudice and assumptions. The other thing I am certain of is we wouldn't be able to write Jesus off as just a good person; some sort of Mother Theresa/Ghandi type teacher, sage or even a prophet (This isn't my logic, C.S. Lewis said this much better). Jesus made some bold and controversial statements. He wasn't executed just because he made a scene at the temple. He was executed because he claimed to be the Son of God. The Jews understood this claim; he was crucified for blasphemy, not for causing a disturbance. It is clear from the gospel accounts that Jesus had no political aspirations - the Kingdom of God that he preached was clearly a spiritual, not a political concept. That is why the Romans were not willing to execute him. Pilot was willing to flog Him and release Him, but the pharasees insisted on crucifying Him. If He were a threat to the peace, the Romans or Herod, the pupet king would have arrested him, not the pharasees. Some might argue that we don't know what Jesus actually said, only what his followers wrote years later. If you consider that almost all of the deciples were either killed or imprisoned for extended periods of their lives for their beliefs, you have to wonder why 12 seemingly rational people would be willing to suffer and/or die for a system of beliefs that they knew to be a fraud. The only other extra-biblical references to Jesus were from a Jewish historian Josephus, and as Jesus' mission was not political in nature, He didn't warrant much mention by Josephus. So with no one to dispute what the gospel writers recorded, and as 3 of the 4 were eye witnesses to the events with no motivation to lie or recant - even when facing execution, I'll accept what they recorded as being historically accurate. Jesus was either who He said He was, or a fraud. A good man doesn't claim to be God - even Jesus said "why do you call me good? There is none good but God" (sorry my paraphase). The Gospel of Mark is a thematic study of how Jesus revealed himself, first as as man, then as a rabbi, then as a prophet, then as the Messiah and finally as the Son of God. Mark chose to record specific events that illustrated this. Jesus enjoyed tremendous popularity until he made the final claim to be the Son of God and the ONLY way to salvation. How is it that a crowd, which on what we celebrate as Palm Sunday was willing to make Him King, five days later demanded He be crucified? They understood His claims as well. That is what the Gospel message continues to do today; it presents you with a choice. The Man is the Message; accept it or reject it, it's up to you. Our country is not the only thing to which we owe our allegiance. It is also owed to justice and to humanity. Patriotism consists not in waving the flag, but in striving that our country shall be righteous as well as strong: James Bryce
In Christ Posted January 5, 2002 Posted January 5, 2002 I applaud you all :) for having level heads and for thinking. Magical, man I hear ya. The only way I know the wind is real is because I have stood in it. But how could I explain the wind to someone who has lived indoors all their lives? All my attempts fall short and I am left to try and convince that soul to come outside and see for yourself. And I will tell you from experience that one moment in the presence of God is greater than all my past experiences, combined. And as an ex-rock lead singer that used to indulge in "wine, women, and song". I've lived "the life" and there is NO and I mean NO comparison. There is a completeness that comes that can be found no where else. So some christians tend to get over zealous to get others to "come outside and experience the wind. Oh and something else, just because you went to church does not mean you "felt the wind". And I won't get in to why or a bunch of theology. My point was to try and give you a view from the christian point as to why we can be so stubborn about this subject. Because I have spent the better part of 15 yrs. studying and trying to find fault with the Bible teachings. And like most others who unbiasedly approach the bible looking only for truth have found it to stand up to all my scrutiny. Orson Wells, a lover of history, spent 20 yrs of his life trying to historically prove that the Bible was historically inept. But rather found it to be one of the most sound historical documents in existance. And that Jesus Christ was the most significant man to ever live. And Mr. Wells started his search just as sceptical as 'rold ;) . And 'rold Jesus himself said, by four different literal witnesses publishing writings not knowing of the others efforts, that there is a heaven to gain, and a hell to shun. And the thought that everyone is going to heaven means that heaven is just as screwed up as this place. And you know what? No one else can explain how this incredible place we call earth and you wonderful people got here on it. It's all theory, but I'm telling you I have stood before the "wind" and I will DIE for Him. In Christ, James John 3:16 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. (ASV) Jamey
lovesinger Posted January 5, 2002 Posted January 5, 2002 [quote]Originally posted by jbtiffee@netzero.net: [b]I applaud you all :) for having level heads and for thinking. Magical, man I hear ya. The only way I know the wind is real is because I have stood in it. But how could I explain the wind to someone who has lived indoors all their lives? All my attempts fall short and I am left to try and convince that soul to come outside and see for yourself. And I will tell you from experience that one moment in the presence of God is greater than all my past experiences, combined. And as an ex-rock lead singer that used to indulge in "wine, women, and song". I've lived "the life" and there is NO and I mean NO comparison. There is a completeness that comes that can be found no where else. So some christians tend to get over zealous to get others to "come outside and experience the wind. Oh and something else, just because you went to church does not mean you "felt the wind". And I won't get in to why or a bunch of theology. My point was to try and give you a view from the christian point as to why we can be so stubborn about this subject. Because I have spent the better part of 15 yrs. studying and trying to find fault with the Bible teachings. And like most others who unbiasedly approach the bible looking only for truth have found it to stand up to all my scrutiny. Orson Wells, a lover of history, spent 20 yrs of his life trying to historically prove that the Bible was historically inept. But rather found it to be one of the most sound historical documents in existance. And that Jesus Christ was the most significant man to ever live. And Mr. Wells started his search just as sceptical as 'rold ;) . And 'rold Jesus himself said, by four different literal witnesses publishing writings not knowing of the others efforts, that there is a heaven to gain, and a hell to shun. And the thought that everyone is going to heaven means that heaven is just as screwed up as this place. And you know what? No one else can explain how this incredible place we call earth and you wonderful people got here on it. It's all theory, but I'm telling you I have stood before the "wind" and I will DIE for Him. In Christ, James[/b][/quote]Broken down .... made plain .... and AWESOMELY SPOKEN !!!! WOOoooooooooooooooooooo!!! I salute you, sir. - and amen. -- Music has miracle potential --
Magical Pig Posted January 5, 2002 Posted January 5, 2002 [quote]Originally posted by jbtiffee@netzero.net: [b]I applaud you all :) for having level heads and for thinking. Magical, man I hear ya. The only way I know the wind is real is because I have stood in it. But how could I explain the wind to someone who has lived indoors all their lives? All my attempts fall short and I am left to try and convince that soul to come outside and see for yourself. And I will tell you from experience that one moment in the presence of God is greater than all my past experiences, combined. And as an ex-rock lead singer that used to indulge in "wine, women, and song". I've lived "the life" and there is NO and I mean NO comparison. There is a completeness that comes that can be found no where else. So some christians tend to get over zealous to get others to "come outside and experience the wind. James[/b][/quote] Thats cool, I wasnt going to get into what I believe, because I feel its just my beliefs, you know what I mean? But I do believe there is a God of sorts. When you think about it, we are forms of energy, and energy cant be destroyed, but just changes form. So in some way we really have to be immortal or have a soul or what ever you want to call it. I concider myself agnostic, and love life, and get just as much out of it as you do. Seeing how all the "pro God religious type guys" got to post links, please check this one out- Feel free to answer some of the questions presented.... So you want to convert me?- http://www.angelfire.com/ky/agnosticism/convert.html Scott Benson www.syborgstudios.com
Dogfur Posted January 5, 2002 Posted January 5, 2002 :p :p [url=http://www.landoverbaptist.com]www.landoverbaptist.com[/url] :p :p C'mon...Just do it... Woof!
rold Posted January 5, 2002 Posted January 5, 2002 You know, I think it's great that all you religious dudes have found your place in life and answer to a higher power, (whether it exists or not), I really do. I have no problem with each of you having beliefs that differ from mine, live and let live. Where I draw the line is when those beliefs become intrusive, offensive, and/or start limiting non-believers' freedoms. When there's the "have you heard the good news?" knock at your door, when someone at your party takes every opportunity possible to tell everyone "how good their life has become since...", when religious beliefs hit the political scene and otherwise acceptable legislations change and EVERYONE's freedoms get affected, when people with different beliefs/races/sexual orientations/personal choices are shunned/spoken out against/murdered/beaten/enslaved/what have you, in the name of this god. When people's kids come home from the youth community centre crying and confused because some lunatic told them they were "sinners" and had to "repent", when the area's noise pollution rises because someone felt it necessary to set up a PA on the street corner and tell everyone they "are sinners and going to burn in hell", and when children are negatively affected by having their books burned over a differing opinion and the media is invited (among other things), my live and let live philosophy gets set aside. Believe what you want, practise as you will - as long as it doesn't disturb others' freedoms, peace of mind, liberties or lives in general, I really couldn't care less. ----------------------------- "An Eye for an Eye" will eventually turn everyone blind. [ 01-04-2002: Message edited by: 'rold ] meh
henrysb3 Posted January 5, 2002 Posted January 5, 2002 Our drummer in the mid seventies used to play around Buffalo and said one night someone requested Roland on the River. It became some kind of icon for us. I made a little label that just fits under the "ROLAND" on my keyboard - "ON THE RIVER". That's for you, Chuck, wherever you are. He not busy being born Is busy dyin'. ...Bob Dylan
lovesinger Posted January 5, 2002 Posted January 5, 2002 Love ya Harold, despite differing North Pole-South Pole spiritual perspectives. Just wanted to share FYI and for all still stuck there that "An Eye for an Eye" went out totally with Jesus whose new and permanent Royal Love administration fulfilled all and invalidated some of "the Law" eye for eye came from, just like we still drive autos but not 40 mph top speed Model T's. quick Christ quote -- 38 "You have heard that it was said, `Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' 39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. {Matthew 5: 38-40} Like other christian standards many of us don't live up to them, but with focus off a few high-profile personalities' errors and excesses, you'd be surprised how many do. I could tell you of many non-wimp Christians, me included, radical enough to believe the above for example, who were more than able to handle by themselves the wrongs done them, but "let God handle it" and got back 10 times more good than the wrondoers were trying to do them out of. So often without examining the source, those who "have a problem with" lay all newsworthy excessives' deeds on the faith itself. Do we lay Been Laden's [purposely misspelled] excesses on ALL of Islam? If so why not just barbarically blow em ALL away so we can ride to the top of our skyscrapers in peace? Absolutely not. thas all. thanks. and Happy New Year!!! -- Music has miracle potential --
Magical Pig Posted January 5, 2002 Posted January 5, 2002 Lovesinger, Can you answer any of the questions brought up in this link? http://www.angelfire.com/ky/agnosticism/convert.html How do you justify ignoring inconsistencies in your religion? Scott Benson www.syborgstudios.com
Tedster Posted January 5, 2002 Posted January 5, 2002 Hmmm...I think the key is in his last sentence "If you favor a literalist interpretation of the Bible, please email me..." A lot of those questions, and this is a very loose reply, can be based on the context of the rather primitive culture in which it was written, i.e., you explain something to people in terms they can understand. If you were a nuclear physicist, and traveled to a remote island off the coast of Borneo populated by primitive tribes, you wouldn't explain modern concepts in terms of equations. You'd simplify things greatly. However, when you look at Genesis, the order of creation seems very close to the order generally accepted by scientists today...first void...then creation of stars, creation of Earth, separation of the waters, creation of animals, and finally, creation of man. Some "literal interpretations of the Bible" believe that it must have happened in exactly seven 24 hour periods, and attempt to assign an age of the Earth at around 6 or so thousand years. To that I reply a hearty "HAW HAW HAW"...although, I wasn't around 6000 years ago to verify. One must remember that the creation story is told relative to God's perspective...and the book of James states "To God a day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years is as a day"...implying time being a meaningless concept relative to eternity, therefore a period of 4.5 billion years is quite possible. Or more. Or less. Who knows? All these literal nitpicky arguments aren't what I base my faith on. I have no problem with what you believe, because you're entitled to your own opinion. My faith is based on the prophecy that occurred in the Old Testament, and the apparent fulfillment of that prophecy in the New Testament. I have a lot of trouble with some of the early books in the Old Testament...some were incredibly bloody, especially books like Judges and that early period where the Hebrews would go in and slaughter communities to the last man, woman, child etc. But, as I said, my own personal faith is based on prophecy and its fulfillment (more or less). Read Psalm 22, written about 500 years before the time of Jesus. I also find it absurd to the point of impossibility to believe that this universe can exist without an engineer. Systems, when left to their own, tend to detiorate toward chaos, not the other way around. Current scientific thinking seems to indicate that order sprang from chaos. Not without guidance and engineering. That and the fact that, regardless of how "absurd" it seems to non-believers, I happen to derive comfort from it. Far be it from me to try to convert anyone. Rather, if someone asks "Why do you believe what you believe?" I'll tell them, and let them make their own mind up. But, of course, no one will really know for sure until we die, right? "Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine"
RobT Posted January 5, 2002 Posted January 5, 2002 Tedster, loveslinger (I hope I spelled that right) and all the rest of the believers. I think that you have presented the evidence in the most loving and caring manner imaginable. A lot of evangelicals could take lessons from the belief ,strength of faith and compassion that has been expressed on this thread. I know that we all have our own things to work out in our walk of faith but I really pray that God continues to richly bless all of you in all your endeavors. Even you non-believers too ;) This has my vote for thread of the year. RobT RobT Famous Musical Quotes: "I would rather play Chiquita Banana and have my swimming pool than play Bach and starve" - Xavier Cugat
In Christ Posted January 6, 2002 Posted January 6, 2002 I will answer everyone, but rather than give you quick answers I will research for "scripture references". And I can tell you after a quick read that this person has a real shock coming. ;) In Christ, James John 3:16 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. (ASV) Jamey
lovesinger Posted January 6, 2002 Posted January 6, 2002 [quote]Originally posted by Tedster: [b]All these literal nitpicky arguments aren't what I base my faith on.[/b][/quote] ENTHUSIASTICALLY AGREED!!! And if we spent time with every nit that's picked like these we'd have little time or energy to do what we need to do to make our own lives productive. [quote]Originally posted by Tedster: [b]I also find it absurd to the point of impossibility to believe that this universe can exist without an engineer. Systems, when left to their own, tend to detiorate toward chaos, not the other way around. Current scientific thinking seems to indicate that order sprang from chaos. Not without guidance and engineering.[/b][/quote] It's been said that [b]THE PROBABILITY[/b] that all of the systematically ultra-complex life that we presently know from microcosm to macrocosm assembling itself from a random cosmic collection of subatomic particles, elements and energy in the unmeasurably ultra-huge area we call "space" into celestial bodies occupying their own domains, and gravitational (like solar) planetary system "neighborhoods", materials and zoological tissues (skin, hair), then those tissues combining into thriving humano-animal-beings dynamically interdependent and sustained by the other similarly awesome enviro-systems ----is the same probability that a bunch of parts thrown up in the air will somehow become a car. [quote]Originally posted by Magical Pig: [b]Lovesinger, Can you answer any of the questions brought up in this link? http://www.angelfire.com/ky/agnosticism/convert.html How do you justify ignoring inconsistencies in your religion?[/b][/quote](Let's see, how many times have I done this "live" face to face in the past 20 years? Now a cyber version.) Magical, I'd like to get back to you with a few replies (maybe by email) after I pray and get direction, but is it ok if I just cut to the chase? If you don't want to believe, you won't believe. Your potently pre-set anti-religion (read anti-christian) stance will convert the CLEAREST fact into a cross-twisted new argumentable "inconsistency". I've been there too many times to think otherwise. I don't need to pray about how to "answer points" -- I do that fairly easily today, TTL (thank the Lord). But there's some area of special importance to you, that will yield a garden of beautiful understanding if you/we go down that path together, and any other area we spend time in will just be exercises in futility. I didn't know it when I was younger, but I've learned through the years those are precious wastes of time. Still your interest, although now adversarial, is important enough (and your secure enjoyment of eternity surely is) that I'll answer directly to you the issues I'm led to, since Mr./Ms. browning's challenge is not on my agenda and my site replies will likely end up in his "Want to see the Most Common Answers I receive?"-link pile (if you find fault with me saying that, keep living and discover how some people specialize in wasting your precious life with endless debating when they're not in quest for any greater understanding). If this sounds mystically spooky it's not -- but it is more "Magical" than anything ever connected with that word ever could be. [b]It's what James [jbtiffee] in his post above called standing in the wind[/b], a GREAT analogy, and it's a transforming thing absolutely necessary to understand spiritual Jesus-things {like how much sense does it make to love and help someone who hates you? Only the specially strong love that way. P.S. __ notice I haven't lost my freedom, trashed my intellect or thrown out my music gear to go live in a commune? Indeed, when I gave it all to Christ, these things REALLY started to blossom}. Only then can you possess more than the head-religion many have who are missing out on the great riches in their spiritual back yard and garage. [ 01-05-2002: Message edited by: lovesinger ] -- Music has miracle potential --
Magical Pig Posted January 6, 2002 Posted January 6, 2002 If you dont want to discuss it anymore thats fine with me, but I'm not trying to be adversarial, unless you consider someone who has a different view of things as such. I felt that because in each of your statements you quoted scripture to support your belief, I'd post a link that raised questions on the other side of the discussion. I believe that alot of people with very strong "faith" stick their head in the sand and ignore anything that doesnt jibe with what they already think. I'm sure you probably think the same about me...Thats fine. I like discussing things like this with people (to a point, then my fingers get tired 'cause I type like a two fingered 4 year old) who dont agree with me because its interesting to me to see what makes other people tick, and what theyre thinking. Consider the topic closed if you want. We could segue into a similar type topic where people choose sides and are very reluctant to budge from their point of view, like high end audiophile cables. Would you spend a couple hundred dollars on a mic cable? Or do you think that the people who do are just convincing themselves it sounds better through some type of placebo effect? Seems to me alot of audiophile types are a bit looney. Any thoughts? Wow, I was just thinking, if I get talking to a devout christian audiophile, this thing could spiral out of control! Scott Benson www.syborgstudios.com
Magical Pig Posted January 6, 2002 Posted January 6, 2002 [quote]Originally posted by Tedster: [b]Hmmm...I think the key is in his last sentence "If you favor a literalist interpretation of the Bible, please email me..." But, of course, no one will really know for sure until we die, right?[/b][/quote] That reminds me of the first scene in Monty Pythons "Life of Brian" where Eric Idel, who cant quite hear what Jesus is saying cause he's so far back in the crowd, says to Brian's mother- " I think he said blessed are the cheese makers.." And a woman asks, "Whats so special about the cheese makers?" To which her husband (big nose) replies, "Its not meant to be taken literally, but refers to any makers of dairy products." I love that line....And your right, no one will REALLY know until we die, which is why I consider myself agnostic. Ok,Ok- stick a fork in me- I'm done... [ 01-05-2002: Message edited by: Magical Pig ] Scott Benson www.syborgstudios.com
Tedster Posted January 6, 2002 Posted January 6, 2002 HAHAHA...I loved that movie. A lot of Christians thought it quite blasphemous. I'd like to picture Jesus up on his throne watching it having a mighty laugh. (Monty Python Terry Jones "woman" voice): A HUNDRED POUNDS FOR A BLOODY CABLE? YOU MUST BE DAFT!!! "Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine"
ViLo Posted January 6, 2002 Posted January 6, 2002 PHIL, WHAT HAVE YOU DONE!!!............ The thread of the year!! :) !! HE'S COMING, MAKE MUSIC, GET READY!! ViLo [ 01-05-2002: Message edited by: ViLo ] Jesus Is Coming, Make Music, Get Ready!
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