Christian musicians - interesting link

[Rog]

It's okay ... you can all stop ranting now, I just disproved the existence of god - sorry christians, you were wrong. You may go now. :D

[In Christ]

quote by Lee Say what? I think you really need to study other religions before you say such things. Most other religions do give an accounting of "where we have been", Buddhism included. (and BTW for those who are not aware, Buddhism is not a "religion" per se, it's a philosophical doctrine, and one can be a Buddhist and also follow a specific religion. You can be a Buddhist Christian and Buddhists will have no problem with this, although Christians probably would ). -------------------------------------------------------------- Well out of fairness I did not reply till I reread the encyclopedia and did some searching to see if I could find any "viable" means by which we got here according to Buddism. And guess what, NOTHING. But hey if you give me the reference as to how you derived. And as far as the "Buddist Christian" is concerned. -------------------------------------------------------------- The fundamental doctrine of Manichaeism is its dualistic division of the universe into contending realms of good and evil: the realm of Light (spirit), ruled by God, and the realm of Darkness (matter), ruled by Satan. Originally, the two realms were entirely separate, but in a primal catastrophe the realm of Darkness invaded the realm of Light, and the two became mixed and engaged in a perpetual struggle. The human race is a result and a microcosm of this struggle. The human body is material, therefore evil; the human soul is spiritual, a fragment of the divine Light, and must be redeemed from its imprisonment in the body and the world. The path of redemption is through knowledge of the realm of Light imparted by the succession of divine messengers that includes Buddha and Jesus and ends in Mani. With this knowledge the human soul can conquer the carnal desires that perpetuate its imprisonment and so ascend to the divine realm. "Manichaeism," Microsoft® Encarta® Encyclopedia 99. © 1993-1998 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. -------------------------------------------------------------- Jesus said He is the "way" and that "none" come to God but by me. So Budda does not figure into that equation. -------------------------------------------------------------- The 4th-century theologian St. Augustine was a Manichaean for nine years before his conversion to Christianity. He subsequently wrote polemics against the movement, which was also condemned by several popes and Roman emperors. "Manichaeism," Microsoft® Encarta® Encyclopedia 99. © 1993-1998 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. -------------------------------------------------------------- To further my asertion that you can not be a "Buddist Christian", Christ taught that there is no other God than Jehovah. Yet Budda is considered "divine being", making it impossible to believe in the two coexisting. Not to mention the Father God, whom Jesus speaks of is "very" personable and knowable. Sorry, that "boat don't float". -------------------------------------------------------------- It is sometimes said that Theravada Buddhism, is atheistic, but this is not so. The gods are real, but they are not ultimate. The ultimate reality, or Holy Being, is the impersonal cosmic order. A similar concept is found in ancient Greek religion, in which cosmic destiny (see Fates) seems to have been superior to even the high gods. In the Mahayana Buddhism of China and Japan, the Buddha himself was transformed into a divine being, although the connection with the historical Buddha became very tenuous. The many Buddha figures of Asia are cosmic beings. "God," Microsoft® Encarta® Encyclopedia 99. © 1993-1998 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. :D

[Lee Flier]

Jerry, Thanks for your sincere response. [quote]Originally posted by Tusker: [b] Lee: Thanks for providing a passage for us to look at. Wow, you don't pick some esoteric passage do you. This has to be one the central passages in scripture.[/b][/quote] Yes, I deliberately picked one that was as straightforward and unambiguous as I could think of, not to mention one that I figured most people would know. I'm not interested in getting into a big estoteric discussion and breaking down every word into tiny pieces. :D [quote][b] Let me recap some of the assumptions around our dialogue. It's not my purpose to convert you or anyone to a Christian point of view. Nor is it to cast doubt on anybody's beliefs that are important to them. However, it is my purpose to "make room" for multiple points of view, including the Christian one. [/b][/quote] I accept that premise. I have not gotten the impression from you that you're trying to "convert me" and I appreciate that. [quote][b]This is why I asked you: How do we know what we believe we know? My question to you is more focused....I should have probably phrased thus: If we believe that the God of the bible is immoral, how do we know what we know?[/b][/quote] First of all, I should be clear that I never have said I believe that the God of the Bible is immoral. I haven't really drawn any conclusions about the God of the Bible other than that I don't relate to him much. That others do is pretty plain, so I'm asking how they do. As for "how we know what we know", you are kind of presuming that if we don't trust every word in the Bible then we have no way of knowing anything about God. From a strictly Christian point of view I can see where you'd ask the question that way, but in fact there are lots of ideas man has had about God at various times and places, the Bible being only one of them. That's why I asked MY original question of "How do you know the Bible is really the last word as opposed to something else?" What I personally believe is that God speaks to each of us in a way we can understand. There are other people's representations of God here and there, too, which may or may not resonate with us because God has spoken to each of us in a different voice. From that perspective I see a lot of "truth" in the Bible but I don't take it literally as historical fact or a completely accurate representation of God. I don't think that detracts from it at all, either, contrary to what you might think. I feel that every "earthly" representation of God is, in fact, not entirely accurate by default. I accept the fact that each of us carries a little bit of God, a little bit of the truth, and that by talking to others we can hopefully piece together more bits. But when it comes to spiritual matters I find that the process of learning and questioning is more important than drawing conclusions. Your mileage may vary of course. But the point is: I haven't drawn any conclusions about the God of the Bible. That particular representation just doesn't speak to me particularly well, that's all. So I'm talking to others who relate to the God of the Bible, trying to find out how it is they relate to him. [quote][b]First of all, if we believe (as some do) that Men made it up (not God) it is highly unlikely that Men would make up an immoral God to persuade people to commit to.[/b][/quote] On the other hand, the people of that time and place may well not have considered that type of behavior immoral. Let's not forget that the Near and Middle East in Biblical times weren't very pleasant. There were lots of little tribes of people competing for a VERY small amount of fertile land relative to the population. If you couldn't secure some of that fertile land, you were screwed because the surrounding area was desert. So, anyone who was powerful in warfare, and displayed an ability to compete successfully for territory, was respected. Military leaders were practically worshipped. It follows that such a people would represent God as being somebody who'd be happy to open up a can of whoop-ass on enemies of his people, not to mention anyone who disobeyed him. This is not too dissimilar to how a great soldier-king would have behaved, and been admired for. So I don't, as I said, believe that God is immoral just because I think the representation of him in the Bible is not entirely accurate. I have to run right now so I'll post this and respond to the rest later... --Lee

[Tusker]

Thanks for your post, Lee. I appreciate your candor and willingness to discuss things. :) [quote]Originally posted by Lee Flier: [b] First of all, I should be clear that I never have said I believe that the God of the Bible is immoral. I haven't really drawn any conclusions about the God of the Bible other than that I don't relate to him much. .............. [/b][/quote] I accept that, Lee. :) You didn't use that phrase exactly. I believe the original phrase you used was: [quote]Originally posted by Lee Flier: [b]Some of the stuff God supposedly does in the Bible amounts to just "venting" so far as I can see - just getting pissed off and throwing his weight around. [/b][/quote] At which point I asked you which of behaviors irked you specifically and that dialog led us to this passage we have been discussing. I do believe that God as portrayed in the Bible is a compassionate God with good and loving behaviors, so it was important for me to understand how someone could come to an alternate view based on a reading of the same material. Based on the passage you have cited, I personally don't see a [i]"venting"[/i] God, a [i]"pissed-off"[/i] God, or a [i]"throwing his weight around"[/i] God. I am not asking you to convince me that the God of the Bible is badly behaved. However if you choose to do so, I am willing to listen, reason and learn. [quote]Originally posted by Lee Flier: [b]As for "how we know what we know", you are kind of presuming that if we don't trust every word in the Bible then we have no way of knowing anything about God. [/b][/quote] I am not presuming that at all. I am not using this issue of the morality of God as portrayed in the bible to speak to people's beliefs about God in general. I am only saying that if one makes assertions about God's morality (or bad behavior) as portrayed in the bible, it's reasonable to discuss those [i]specific[/i] views based on the same source from which one derived those assertions. Regards, Jerry

[Philip OKeefe]

Gee, only five hundred and some odd posts? I thought for a while there that this thread was on target to surpass the "is your music any good" and "96K" threads... but then this thread sort of just died. Oops, I just revived it. Or is that resurrected it? :eek: OH NO, WHAT HAVE I DONE? ;) :rolleyes: :D As long as you're all at it, you may as well stay on this thread instead of starting a new one. ;) [img]http://www.freakygamers.com/smilies/s2/contrib/navigator/usa.gif[/img] Phil O'Keefe Sound Sanctuary Recording Riverside CA http://www.ssrstudio.com pokeefe777@ssrstudio.com