Maybe THIS is why CD sales are down...

[Gulliver]

Originally posted by Jeebus:

Originally posted by Gulliver:

Don't forget - people still download music from the net! That's why CD sales are down... down... down...

According to whom?

According to my intuition.

 

Originally posted by Jeebus:

Cd sales aren't down, last I checked.

Say this to Craig.

[doug osborne]

Actually, concert ticket sales have hit record levels for each of the last three years in the US: Major concert ticket sales revenue in North America skyrocketed nearly 20 percent, making 2003 the fifth consecutive year to hit record levels .

 

Of course, the top tours were charging astronomical prices, and I don't know how these stack up adjusted for inflation.

 

I know how hard it is for local acts and small clubs these days - my experience here goes back to the disco era when one-by-one all the clubs started replacing bands with DJs. This issue has been discussed here before.

 

Record sales are rebounding quite well, too. the more files get traded, the more CDs get sold.

 

Would Todd Runtgren's Something Anything, Stevie Wonder's Innervisions, or Marshall Crenshaw's first album been any better if they would have brought in other musicians?

 

Like any other creative issue, this is a matter of how well an artist produces their art, and if it is true to their intent and inspiration, not the technology or specific workflow.

[Anderton]

<

 

They were all working with some pretty excellent engineers and (except for Todd) producers.

[Anderton]

Here's the story I have on CD sales...down for three years, now rebounding (AP story with dateline LA).

 

<< U.S. album sales declined annually in the three years following 2000, the biggest year since Nielsen SoundScan began tracking U.S. music

sales. In 2001, sales were down 3 percent. The next year, sales dropped 11 percent. Last year, until September, sales were down 8.5 percent, but

the pickup in sales at the end of the year narrowed the total decline for 2003 to less than 4 percent.

 

[For 2004] overall U.S. music sales -- CDs, legal downloads, DVDs -- rose 9.1 percent in the first three months of the year over the same period in 2003, according to Nielsen SoundScan.

 

Album sales were up 9.2 percent. Sales of CDs, which represent 96 percent of album sales, rose 10.6 percent. For the first time since 2000, two recording artists -- Norah Jones and Usher -- managed to sell more than 1 million copies of their albums in a single week. >>

[doug osborne]

down for three years, now rebounding

Roughly the same as in the early '80s between disco and the CD boom, in the early '60s between Elvis and the Beatles, in the early '20s between radio and the electrical recording/record album era.

 

All eras of technology and art being out of balance at the same time.

[Foot]

Maybe the problem doesn't lie with modern production/recording methodology (live/group vs multi-tracked/quantized/auto-tuned/edited). I personally like some pretty stiff, computerized music (Tangerine Dream) alongside old "live" albums (Ramones).

 

I'd suggest part of it is a lack of originality. Or at least a noticeable difference. I can't speak about Usher (don't think I've even heard him, wouldn't know it if I did) but Norah Jones is a break from artists like 50 Cent and Eminem (Not knocking 'em though. I happen to dig Wu-tang and Jurassic 5 a lot). What she's doing isn't really original, but it is very different from what saturated the mainstream prior to her success. So many labels are following the "tried and true" rather than taking chances. There's a similar trend in movies now, with all the remakes.

 

Also, I'd like to suggest a more taoist view. Sales cannot climb forever. They must fall to rise and rise to fall.

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by Doug Osborne:

Actually, concert ticket sales have hit record levels for each of the last three years in the US: Major concert ticket sales revenue in North America skyrocketed nearly 20 percent, making 2003 the fifth consecutive year to hit record levels .

Right. REVENUES are up, attendance is down. Ticket prices are totally ridiculous, in other words.

[Archer]

Originally posted by Anderton:

I wonder if it has anything to do with fewer and fewer groups recording together in studios and creating a Musical Experience as opposed to assembling a collection of tracks with the "look and feel" of music. Maybe recordings record something other than just audio...maybe there's a "sub-carrier" that contains more of the essence of what music is about.

 

A lot of music sounds like there's a hole in the middle of it where's something's missing. And people don't like that. They want to hear a bunch of humans having a shared musical experience, not a reasonable facsimile.

 

It's like the difference between riding through the countryside in a car, and looking at a video taken by a camcorder in a car riding through the countryside. You may see the same basic stuff, but the experience is not at all the same.

 

And maybe this is the problem people have with digital audio: It has allowed this type of music to become commonplace, and they're confusing the medium with the way that it's being used.

I somewhat disagree. It's true that (IMHO) that a lot of newer music has the life edited out of it but I think a lot of regular music listeners are ok with that. I say that because their is over edited and non-over edited music and both are selling well (or are downloaded a lot). If the general public was very dissatisfied with the over edited stuff there is plenty of really good stuff easily available.

 

it may be that music has became so much easier to create and share (sales and downloads) and so much is available that most folks don't really see music as much of an art as, say, a painting. There is no way to share a painting, in all it's original beauty, as there is with music and I believe that many have mistaken the CD and it's digital contents as the actual art. The musical experience has been cheapened even though without it it would be instantly missed by every person in our society if it disappeared.

[RABid]

I can only accurately say why I dont buy as many CDs.

 

90 percent of what I bought was old material anyway. Now I have it. I already own 700+ CDs. I dont really need anything else.

 

Too much crap being marketed. Product demos sound better than a lot of music that is released for sale. I hate buying a CD for a good song and find that it is the only good song.

 

XM Radio. I used to buy CDs because local radio only played the same country, gospel and oldies songs over and over. I would blindly buy jazz, electronic and Latin music hoping to get lucky and make a good purchase. Now I have 120 stations in my office and in my car. I hardly listen to my CD collection anymore. So why add to it?

 

Robert

[doug osborne]

...Ticket prices are totally ridiculous, in other words...QUOTE]

 

Can't argue there. My ass would have been in a seat for McCartney, for example, if the tickets would have been anywhere near affordable. Believe me, I tried to pull some favors and got nowhere.

 

Clair Bros/Showco report record profits, adjusted for inflation.

 

Numbers of guitars sold have increased at about 5%/year for the last five years according to NAMM.

 

Some are figuring out how to prosper in this down time.

 

Some are figuring out how to make great art even in this time of the devaluation of craftsmanship and artisanship.

[phaeton]

Another interesting note to add to the "record/music/media companies are taking the safe road vs. the innovative road"..

 

I read an interview with the frontman of the Violent Femmes, and he stated that a record label they were on refused to release any of their recorded material for over 4 years. The stuff was already recorded, mixed, mastered, the album covers and artwork was finalized. Everything for about 3 albums was set, and I believe there was even a bunch of copies sitting in warehouses just waiting for the go-ahead to hit the stores.

 

But the company refused to release them, and gave no explanation. Maybe because in the early 1990s, suddenly the Femmes' music wasn't what the execs thought would sell (which is a really stupid assumption, if you think about it)

 

Whether you like the VF or not, you can't deny that their music isn't bullshit. It's the real deal- real tunes made by real ppl that really believe in them.

[YourMotherShouldKnow]

Originally posted by Doug Osborne:

...Ticket prices are totally ridiculous, in other words...QUOTE]

 

Can't argue there. My ass would have been in a seat for McCartney, for example, if the tickets would have been anywhere near affordable. Believe me, I tried to pull some favors and got nowhere..

Hey Doug , I paid $300 for 2 of us to see McCartney. Very good seats. It was easily worth it.

 

There are a lot of distractions for kids these days. X-box looks really cool. Internet stuff. Dumb TV. They discover sex and cocaine in like 7th grade now.

 

I don't see many significant new artists out there. I like U2's last album. Sting's new one is very good. These guys have been around forever. Norah Jones and Sarah Maclachlan. Norah isn't doing anything deep but I like her. Sarah Maclachlan is probably my favorite modern artist. Tool/A Perfect Circle are significant but too dark for me to really get into. Incubus is close but not quite there for me.

 

I think we're spinning into an artistic Dark Age. No one speaks out against the CRAP that's coming through the speakers. Privately, I think most people realize it's CRAP and are afraid to say so.

[Desdinova]

"Is it overdubbing and isolated tracks that make the hole? Does the guitar need to be in the drum mics at the same time as the drums?" Well this hits the nail on the head. When you listen to music, you HEAR the drums with the guitar, not in separate spaces, so this is a factor that figures into the "vibe" of things, that "it" factor.

 

I think the "problem" is simple. Music used to be created for the art of it, and if it sold, or if a record company could make a buck.. they would. The paradigm now is to design the band, the act, the tour and THEN go find ACTORS to play the parts.

 

There is a LOT of great music out there. It's not on the radio, it's not on MTV, it's in garages and bars and nightclubs around the world, and it's on the Internet. You have to sift through a lot, but it's out there.

 

Music sales have dropped in large because the large majority of what is being produced for commercial consumption is not music, but rather "entertainment." Janet is an entertainer, Britney is an entertainer. These folks do not tout themselves as musicians, but as personalities. They are building careers, that is the goal. If making some music along the way helps, that's fine. When you just listen to these performers, on a CD, something is obviously missing. There are some good tunes, but by and large, the CD is just a souveneir for those that can't make it to (or afford) the big show.

 

On the other side of the coin are people like Jennifer Love Hewitt. Now STOP laughing. She was making music long before she was an actress. It's her passion, and if she had her way, that's all she would do. But alas, the "actress" gig pays the bills and allows her to record every now and then. But you can hear her passion for the music in the material even if it's not your cup-o-tea. It has the "it" that Britney will never have.

 

So the bottom line, until record companies go back to making music, instead of creating entertainers, CD sales will be down. It's not a reflection of the artists out there, its a reflection of what the record companies choose to promote.

[phaeton]

Can I also note that this is the most participation i've seen out of Chief Anderton in a single thread. I wish we could have more of this, but I also understand his plight all too well...

 

[doug osborne]

quote:

---

Originally posted by phaeton:

Can I also note that this is the most participation i've seen out of Chief Anderton in a single thread. I wish we could have more of this, but I also understand his plight all too well...

 

[Nawledge]

I think Botch hit the g-spot, I would only add

how many more songs can people take about 'sex drugs & rock and roll, hoes drugs and thugs.

[seclusion]

I remember going to see Montley Crue back in like 89... Ya their stuff rocked and sucked at the same time, but there was something there. The studio work was cool, but live, they were so burnt on whatever that they totally sucked tuna. The singer had to be propped up in the corner sitting down. I think the approach used to be get a good track in the studio. That is where everyone would hear your flaws. So most would go in serious. Then live go kill the shit out of it and party on. Well now it's party on at every stage. In the studio you can pay an intern $5000 to goof with your crap and moosh it into something. I think a lot of people are not taking music serious nowadays in the studio... 1-2 takes and move on instead of getting a great track down once and not f%ckin it. But hey what do we know, how many of us are famous???

Later

Bri

[theblue1]

I think you're on to something, Craig.

 

When I need inspiration these days I flip on the oldies station (the real oldies station, with 50's doo wop and R&B). Or I listen to my somewhat extensive (and legit) collection of 20-60's jazz and blues. Does a high-VBR mp3 of Duke Ellington or the Coasters sound as good as a nice Japanese vinyl pressing... mmm, maybe not. But it sure as heck sounds a lot better than the pablum on ClearChannel and Infinity.

[Anderton]

<>

 

Yup, still am! Also, got really sick right after getting back from Europe, where I also sprained my ankle, and have been cranking out the EQ Frankfurt report...but I missed that I couldn't participate while I was over in Europe, so I'd kinda like to make up for lost time.

[BP3]

Like Drew stated earlier, I also tend to work more in the live music arena. First touring, second in broadcast, and for the past 4+ years doing live remote recording for DVD video.

 

If the bands are good, it's the best situation for me. The immediate gratification of a live performance plus the control of a studio mix. I almost never encounter a situation where I have to overdub or autotune a performance. Maybe a quick edit on a part, but beyond that, it's simply trying to capture a live event and mix it to put it in it's best light. 5.1 is well suited to capture the feel of a live event and place the listener in the position of being there.

[Bonedog]

I'd have to agree with Desdinova. I too haven't bought very many CD's as of late mainly because there's nobody worth supporting as "major" label acts go. The people that are getting signed to the majors are not musicians and I think that sucks. Now it's like A&R reps walk through highschools and look for the cutest chick with the best tits and tightest ass. Then it's like "Hey...Arvil (or whomever) would you like a record deal". That's like all of this American Idol bullshit. I don't think you should be turned into a superstar because you like to sing in the shower or were in the school choir.

 

Why the public gets off on this stuff is beyond me and blows my mind. 50 Cent's career for example is based on the fact that he was a crack dealer that got shot 9 times. He's a shit rapper, you can't even understand the guy...but oh yeah, that's cool because he took a shell to the face. If Britney and Christina (who I think actually has a great set of pipes) weren't doing music they'd be doing porn. J-lo should go back to being just an actress, she didn't completely blow at that.

 

I wanna know what happened to signing bands that were sluggin it out, touring across the country in a shitty van. How about the bands that an A&R rep saw at their 2nd show ever and there was a lineup going halfway down the street? I think that the majors are doing it to themselves because it's pretty evident that the public will buy and like whatever is shoved down their throats which I believe is the case with all of this manufactured music and artists (sorry, entertainers). Maybe people are getting a little sick of the fake plastic world of music. I really think that if the music industry gets back to being about music moreso than sex and fake tits sales might pick up, but hey what do I know....I'm just guessing.

 

Scott

[Jedi]

I didn't get the chance to read the whole thread, but my theory is simple.

 

There aren't many good songs being promoted on the major media outlets. You have to look for good songs/songwriters these days.

 

Lincoln Ross

Dead Black Jedis

[fantasticsound]

Desdinova and Bonedog,

 

While the scenario you laid out has happened on occasion, I believe you're buying into the music business legend.. and that's exactly what it is. A legend.

 

While the business always continues to become more slick in creating media sensations, there has never been a time in the music business when record companies, as an industry, made music for the love of it. A few individuals, sure. The bulk of the biz? No way. They're out there (and have been) to make money.

 

This goes back before there WAS a recording industry. Before that, music publishing spit out as many hits as possible on paper. Since then, it's always the same thing. Sure, there are people making or recording music for the love of it. But most are out there for fame and fortune. Music talent is simply their means to that end.

 

It's not romantic. It's business. It's not new, unless we're talking geologic time.

[Bonedog]

Originally posted by fantasticsound:

Desdinova and Bonedog,

 

While the scenario you laid out has happened on occasion, I believe you're buying into the music business legend.. and that's exactly what it is. A legend.

 

While the business always continues to become more slick in creating media sensations, there has never been a time in the music business when record companies, as an industry, made music for the love of it. A few individuals, sure. The bulk of the biz? No way. They're out there (and have been) to make money.

 

This goes back before there WAS a recording industry. Before that, music publishing spit out as many hits as possible on paper. Since then, it's always the same thing. Sure, there are people making or recording music for the love of it. But most are out there for fame and fortune. Music talent is simply their means to that end.

 

It's not romantic. It's business. It's not new, unless we're talking geologic time.

I certainly don't dispute the fact that the music business is in fact that....business. What I'm saying is that they control who gets all the promotion and just what kind of promotion (ie. the angle they are going for). I therefore think that it's their own fault for all of the dribble that's on the airwaves/MTV. My point is that MAYBE people (the general public) are getting sick of it (and probably without actually realizing) and as a result they are choosing not to buy.

 

I do think that the whole download thing is to blame as well. Most people don't ever realize that they are breaking copyright laws when they dupe a cd. I've had people come up to me (I play in a band that has put out 3 indie discs) and say how much they like the new disc. When I say "thanks for picking it up" I have actually gotten, "oh no, I just burned it from my friend". It's fucking insane!

[Phil B]

Originally posted by Bonedog:

I too haven't bought very many CD's as of late mainly because there's nobody worth supporting as "major" label acts go. The people that are getting signed to the majors are not musicians and I think that sucks. Now it's like A&R reps walk through highschools and look for the cutest chick with the best tits and tightest ass.

I think you're right from the perspective of radio and MTV, but there is lots of great, great music out there today. It just takes a little more work to find it because you don't have DJs to help you dig it up anymore. But, with message boards on the 'net, they probably aren't that necessary from a consumers point of view, anyway. I'd put the albums of Wilco, The Flaming Lips, Beck, Radiohead and Bob Dylan's and Paul Simon's most recent albums (nothing against their older stuff, of course, I'm just saying they've "still got it") against the best of any era and those are all major label releases. And who cares about the majors anyway? We don't have to be limited to what they're pushing anymore than someone who appreciates fine food has to limit themselves to eating McDonald's.

[Bonedog]

I know there is a lot of great music out there. Don't get me wrong, I still buy a fair amount of indie discs and discs from small labels. I even like some of the major label stuff. When people say that "CD's aren't selling" I assume they must be talking about the majors. I don't think that the people who legitamtely like a band because of the bands music (true fans) are gonna stop buying those discs. What I mean is, (and I can really only speak for myself) if I'm a Flaming lips or Phish fan, I'm always gonna buy their stuff because I like them for the fact that they are smoking bands. If I buy the discs has nothing to do with how they are recorded (though in almost all cases the indie stuff actually breathes a little cause it often isn't hypercompressed).

 

My point is that the masses (the numbers) are buying (or I guess not buying) the stuff that is shoved down their throats, which is the major label stuff and not the unknown indie artists. I think we can all agree with that. I was just replying to the post that "maybe this is why cd sales are down". I think it has a lot less to do with vibe than it has to do with content or lack there of.

 

As always YMMV

Scott

[DC]

Originally posted by Nawledge:

...I would only add

how many more songs can people take about 'sex drugs & rock and roll, hoes drugs and thugs.

That's something I always really liked about Midnight Oil. I don't believe they ever released a song about love or drugs etc.

 

My big problem with todays music is the Smash-itus syndrome. Fleetwood Mac's last CD had some pretty decent tunes on it and the mastering just makes me ill to listen to it.

 

I think a lot of what has killed the club scene is the political correctness bit too. Most clubbers I've encountered smoked and drank and you're not suppose to do either in public anymore. Not that I'm condoning that behavior, but I sure miss the days when cops didn't mark people's tires to see how long they'd been in a club and the harrassing in general of drivers.

 

As far as the real band verses one guy doing all the parts, I think they can both be valid. I've done some great recordings with a bunch of other musicians but some of the songs I'm most proud of I played everything except for my partner's vox and the occational importing of a 'real' drummer and piano player. I just like good songs.

[Tedly Nightshade]

What's killed the club scene is shitty bands that are painful to listen to, and shitty, painful PAs (or good ones not run well), but the band attracts a big crowd for a while, and the club owner doesn't insist on something actually enjoyable for people who aren't part of that band's scene. The end result is, a whole lot of folks just do not take a chance on bands or clubs they don't know- you get burned almost every time. Or often enough that it's just not worth the risk.

 

I'm told there was a time when people might just drop in on a show from a band they'd never heard, just to have a good time and take a chance- that must be before my time, except for a very, very few intrepid scenesters I know who will try anything once. There's a couple in every town...

[Lee Flier]

Yeah, you nailed it Ted. My bandmate Lyle and I are rabid fans and love to go see other bands play when we're not playing. But even we don't wanna take a chance most of the time on somebody we haven't heard, especially if you have to pay a cover (which you do at most places), cuz it's just about always a painful experience.

 

But yes, there WAS a time, in my not very distant memory, when people WOULD just show up at a club to see whoever was there. Even longer ago, there was a time when people would regularly go to a club because the club 1) had a great sound system and 2) had real talent in the booking area and you could pretty much count on the fact that whoever was there wasn't going to suck.

 

I hate to say it, but most of these great clubs were able to build their reputations, hire the right talent, and weather the various ups and downs of the music scene only because they were funded by money from somewhere else... often drug or Mafia money. The Sunset Strip clubs like the Whisky, Roxy et al were all Mafia owned, and they were fantastic places to play and to see breaking bands. You gotta hand it to the Mafia, they know how to run a club.

[FULLREFUSAL]

Originally posted by Anderton:

I wonder if it has anything to do with fewer and fewer groups recording together in studios and creating a Musical Experience as opposed to assembling a collection of tracks with the "look and feel" of music. Maybe recordings record something other than just audio...maybe there's a "sub-carrier" that contains more of the essence of what music is about.

 

A lot of music sounds like there's a hole in the middle of it where's something's missing. And people don't like that. They want to hear a bunch of humans having a shared musical experience, not a reasonable facsimile.

 

It's like the difference between riding through the countryside in a car, and looking at a video taken by a camcorder in a car riding through the countryside. You may see the same basic stuff, but the experience is not at all the same.

 

And maybe this is the problem people have with digital audio: It has allowed this type of music to become commonplace, and they're confusing the medium with the way that it's being used.

with all Due respect Craig, Anyone with ears and knows Sales are down due to record companies releasing and promoting mostly disposable crap..You know this too man...There is a lot of Great stuff out there but it's not promoted...People are hip to it and with peer to peer we can try before we buy...We are choosing to buy only a little less (which is astounding to be due to the lack of substance released by the majors) no matter what the labels say. Maybe they will get a clue. They should or it could be their end.