Maybe THIS is why CD sales are down...

[Anderton]

I wonder if it has anything to do with fewer and fewer groups recording together in studios and creating a Musical Experience as opposed to assembling a collection of tracks with the "look and feel" of music. Maybe recordings record something other than just audio...maybe there's a "sub-carrier" that contains more of the essence of what music is about.

 

A lot of music sounds like there's a hole in the middle of it where's something's missing. And people don't like that. They want to hear a bunch of humans having a shared musical experience, not a reasonable facsimile.

 

It's like the difference between riding through the countryside in a car, and looking at a video taken by a camcorder in a car riding through the countryside. You may see the same basic stuff, but the experience is not at all the same.

 

And maybe this is the problem people have with digital audio: It has allowed this type of music to become commonplace, and they're confusing the medium with the way that it's being used.

[fuzz]

word...

[Mats Olsson.]

I think you are right.

 

Then there's all the editing, quantization, looping, autotuning and heavy limiting squeezing the last remaining life out of the music.

 

15 year old cd's sound better than what we have now. The technology is more evolved now but it is not often used right.

 

Recording & mixing music is not equal to using a word processor, still the same concept of thinking is often applied. It makes me sad.

[halljams]

I dunno.

I agree to a certain point for sure.

But the public has barley got an attention span anymore due to media bombardment and television.

Vancouver B.C. is a prime example imo of how a city rich in culture and talent, as a whole basically could care less about live music.

There are LOTS of great players there, or were.

Consider the generation, they want video games, techno, ecstasy, easy quick entertainment.

 

I know there are facets that really can and do appreciate live music, but not many in the places i have lived and been and played.

 

Most likely this is due to the Majors progressive lack of concern for developing bands and going for the throat for big sales.

Look at Nashville, have you ever heard such garbage in your life. Sure there are a couple good things here and there, same in pop.

But it ain't happenin.

I think another 5 or so years need to go by for some people to start to open their eyes.

In the mean time, we can develop some new approaches to making music.

[Brakka]

Originally posted by Anderton:

I wonder if it has anything to do with fewer and fewer groups recording together in studios and creating a Musical Experience as opposed to assembling a collection of tracks with the "look and feel" of music. Maybe recordings record something other than just audio...maybe there's a "sub-carrier" that contains more of the essence of what music is about.

 

A lot of music sounds like there's a hole in the middle of it where's something's missing.

Is it overdubbing and isolated tracks that make the hole? Does the guitar need to be in the drum mics at the same time as the drums?

 

And who are you working with to design the plug-in to fix this?

[realtrance]

I really do think this is an issue. I remember noticing it quite distinctly when Bruce Springsteen came out with two albums simultaneously, "Lucky Town" and "The Human Touch," one recorded with a band, one with all parts played by Bruce and layered/multitracked together.

 

Both good albums, but you can really tell which one is played by a band playing together, and which one is the "artificial" band.

 

There's a group dynamic in all sorts of ways that's simply not replicable with digitally cut-and-paste performances.

 

rt

[Gulliver]

Originally posted by realtrance:

I really do think this is an issue. I remember noticing it quite distinctly when Bruce Springsteen came out with two albums simultaneously, "Lucky Town" and "The Human Touch," one recorded with a band, one with all parts played by Bruce and layered/multitracked together.

 

Both good albums, but you can really tell which one is played by a band playing together, and which one is the "artificial" band.

 

There's a group dynamic in all sorts of ways that's simply not replicable with digitally cut-and-paste performances.

 

rt

When Kit Watkins records his solo albums, then there is no need for the "real band". His style is different, electronic, and it fits the overall concept of one man band just perfectly. So it all depends on the style AND the player who stands behind all his "cut-and-paste performances", IMO.

 

Also it always puzzles me when people complain about "too much editing" in contemporary music, yet the very same people are ready to enjoy movies (like Matrix, for instance) that basically are an editing paradise (or hell, depends on your point of view) and are almost completely artificial, so to speak.

 

Personally I don't care whether the CD is recorded by a one musician or a bunch of them. If the music is interesting - it's all that matters to me.

 

Don't forget - people still download music from the net! That's why CD sales are down... down... down...

[Barandine Vondenger]

wednesday april 14th

over 192 hits on my nobodie site at one web page with stats.

127 page views at another just this month alone. I have many, many sites, not all with stats so the numbers ain't exact at all.

actual and (amazingly)downloads(when stat are working) exceed each months prior record almost doubled.

no one is buying any'ting though. I offer to sell my stuff, only no takers. ahahaha!

I believe GENERAL real music sales are down because of MARKETING.

a genuis could sell poop to babies.

a ga MARKETING WHIZ could sell ice cream to dead folkes.

a MARKETING GENIUS could sell my homegrown recordings to gazillions of folkes.

i wish i was a marketing genius. how do I get folkes to buy my stuff when they already get it free? they done proved to me they want some; stats show it .

how do you get folkes to buy?

understanding ECONOMICS an'MARKETING thats how.. ahahaha!

[Monkey Mouse]

It would also help to have at least 4 to 6 solid songs on a 12 track album. at least compared to the 1 good song, 2 mediocre songs, and 9 horrible songs on a typical 2004 album.

[Sylver]

Of course there is something missing!

 

Quite a few things IMO.

 

As Craig said, it's a vibe thang. If there are no musicians feeding off of each other, the vibe will be missed.

 

Matts listed over-processing. Most new things sound squashed to me too.

 

Mike bleed has GOT to be a factor as Brakka pointed out.

 

Analog recordings sound better too, IMO. No, I'm not an analog snob, I have a PC DAW. But there is a warmth to analog recordings that is missing from the digital stuff. Maybe I should start looking for some of that dusty analog gear that people are off loading these days.

 

I think the fact that musicians are so worried about impressing other musicians that the parts they play need to be perfect. Parts are so punched in or over-practiced that they have no life and no spontinaity. For the most part, I think that most musicians don't stretch, don't reach, and don't take chances. Music is way too safe. Most of my musical heros weren't safe. Music that breaks new ground and changes what "pop" is is frequently edgy and adventurous, and sometimes downright irreverent.

 

Add all of those together with the fact that the musicians performing are frequently not even a band and have little or no experience actually playing together and it's a pretty good formula for cardboard, cookie cutter music.

 

Then again, maybe we are just getting old.

[Botch.]

I'd have to disagree, because along with CD sales, live music is also dying on the vine. I think fewer and fewer people can be satisfied with music by itself; it has to be accompanying an action movie, or an interactive video game, or the pursuit of some tail in some garishly-lit club.

 

Young people today can't be sufficiently entertained by simple things anymore. Take a kid to the Grand Canyon and he wants to sit in the car and play Nintendo.

 

Plus, speaking as one of the few pure music lovers left, I don't hear a hole in highly-edited music (if its good), I get just as much out of a BT record as I do out of a Beatles record.

 

Flame suit, check!

[AudioMaverick]

For me, there are a few things affecting why I don't buy much, anymore:

- Time to casually enjoy listening to music

- The popular music styles that are being pushed, today

- Those DirecTV music channels

- Today's general sound over the last 10+ years

 

I think I am reaching that age where I am more discriminating in my choices of listening material. The stuff of the last 10 years are falling off of my preferred choices. And, I am wearing out my old favorites from the 70s and 80s. I am hoping this is just a phase I am going through.

 

As for loops in music... If I can repeat the word "redundant" in time with a song for more than 5 seconds, I am on to a different song. This is happening more often. I even hear this on my local jazz station.

 

I really enjoy tracking a live performance of the main instruments over layering. The cut just comes off with a better "toe-tap" feel. Adding filler tracks is a different story.

[doc taz]

Originally posted by Botch.:

Young people today can't be sufficiently entertained by simple things anymore. Take a kid to the Grand Canyon and he wants to sit in the car and play Nintendo.

No wonder I'm a rabbit in Chinese astrology. Not that I necessarily believe in that stuff, but it does seem to reflect my disdain for certain current cultural norms.

 

Here's a description from one Chinese Astrology site that seems (somewhat) to fit me:

 

"The well-mannered Rabbit/Cat is diplomatic, easygoing, refined, and a devoted friend. Detached and aloof, the Rabbit flees personal upheaval and disruption. These souls excel in the fine arts, and are highly creative. Well grounded and ever virtuous, Rabbits shun risk and emotional entanglements, choosing security, and quiet stability. Business partners extraordinare, peaceful and contented Rabbits possesses quiet sensuality and the gift of self-preservation. Sensitive and easily hurt, the private Rabbit keeps their own council and is highly sought after for their advice. The ethical Rabbit needs a loving and unselfish partner who makes very little demands on their time and privacy. Cats gather strength during the breaking dawn hours they rule, between 5:00am - 7:00am.

 

"The nature of Wood is to expand. Wood symbolizes imagination, creativity, and idealism. Its moderate nature is devoted to goodwill, charm and beauty. People born under this element possess high moral ethics; and show exceptional self-confidence. Wood natives understand the value of things and their interests are expansive and eclectic. The expansive nature of Wood, (Much as the great Sequoia tree in the northwest) brings cooperation and an ability to do things on a grand scale. Progressive thinking and generosity allow those influenced by the Wood element to develop large projects and leadership ventures. The proclivity of Wood is to move upward and outward, and to penetrate through. The Wood element brings authority, compassion and natural presence to each of the signs. Wood's physical organs are the Liver and gallbladder; it's flavor is acidic/tart. Wood's color is Green and corresponds to the season of Spring and wind."

 

the site I got it from (makes extensive use of Java applets)

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by Anderton:

It's like the difference between riding through the countryside in a car, and looking at a video taken by a camcorder in a car riding through the countryside. You may see the same basic stuff, but the experience is not at all the same.

Great analogy. Yes, I do get the general feeling these days that people are looking at everything through a camera lens and don't really want to see what's behind it. And yes, between that and the hypercompression trend, today's CD's have become pretty much unlistenable and unmoving for the most part.

 

Trouble is, like Botch said, live music is dying too. It's as if people are realizing that recordings are unsatisfying but they've gotten used to the ultra-slick productions, warped sense of space and time, airbrushed and plastic-surgery-enhanced faces on videos, perfectly autotuned voices, etc. and they find it hard to adjust to and appreciate real time and real people. To make matters worse, the sound at live clubs has been getting worse and worse, as sound guys are usually cranking the volume and compression up to levels that are comparable to CD's.

 

And yeah, I don't "blame" digital recording per se, because it's certainly possible to record digitally without resorting to any of that stuff (we do), but never before has it been so possible to manipulate our experiences and what's depressing is not so much that it CAN be done, but that so many people conclude that it SHOULD be done.

 

The degree to which we've sunk to a culture of artifice and illusion at the expense of anything substantial has been depressing me heavily lately on many levels, and that's a big one. About the only hope I have is burnout. The amount of artifice in our lives is increasing at such a rapid and ever changing pace, that it's gotta end somewhere and soon. People are already suffering in huge numbers from depression, ADD and anxiety disorders, and finding out that the shrinks don't always know how to cure it. Eventually they've GOTTA come around to realizing that real experiences and relationships, meaningful work (not just work for profit), spiritual/philosophical life are and have always been the only things that really matter... not fantasies invented by marketing moguls and propped up by technology.

 

Unfortunately right now seems to be the deepest state of denial the world's ever been in, because the illusion-makers are better at their craft and have better weapons than they ever have had. We do have the tools to fight back, but as of this moment we mostly aren't using them.

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by Dr. Taz:

No wonder I'm a rabbit in Chinese astrology. Not that I necessarily believe in that stuff, but it does seem to reflect my disdain for certain current cultural norms.

Yeah, I'm a rabbit too as is one of my bandmates. And both of us fit the description.

[Jeebus]

Originally posted by Gulliver:

Don't forget - people still download music from the net! That's why CD sales are down... down... down...

According to whom? Cd sales aren't down, last I checked.

[phaeton]

Unfortunately right now seems to be the deepest state of denial the world's ever been in, because the illusion-makers are better at their craft and have better weapons than they ever have had. We do have the tools to fight back, but as of this moment we mostly aren't using them.

 

Lee i agree 100% with everything you've said, and i've seen this too. And to a certain degree, i wonder if people choose (even if they don't consciously see the difference between "real" and "fake") all the artificialities because they're afraid of something. Of what, i don't know. Maybe if i were a television drone i'd feel the same way. I see the way television (and media in general) tends to pump you full of all sorts of insecurities and foster a feeling of "i want to be just like X". It floors me how so many people are so oblivious to this and yet it is so apparent to me. If i didn't have the rare odd person to mention this also, i would seriously think i were imagining it.

 

Or maybe they're just afraid of life in general.

[Barandine Vondenger]

Originally posted by Monkey Mouse:

]It would also help to have at least 4 to 6 solid songs on a 12 track album. at least compared to the 1 good song, 2 mediocre songs, and 9 horrible songs on a typical 2004 album.]

hey hey steamboat willie!

easy how you go on about 2004. theys lots of good songs on that twenty-one track disc.

"Circa 2004" that is.. ahahaha!

[Hanshananigan]

Lots of interesting comments!

 

I've seen mention before about live music losing it's crowd. Can someone qualify what that means?

[hard truth]

I think most of the blame for the public's declining interest in music should be directed at radio, MTV and other outlets. In the old days (pre-1971 or so) a DJ could play a record that he liked and give it exposure. As a result cool, quirky songs became hits. When radio became more "professionalized," with more centralized corporate control and the use of marketing tools for programming (such as focus groups), radio music became more safe and homogenous.

 

Look at the charts from the fifities and sixties and you'll see novelty songs, music from other cultures, rock 'n roll and older styles all on the same list. Today's commercial radio stations would never play such a variety or so much oddball music. No wonder most people find today's music uninteresting.

 

The sterile recording techniques cited by Craig Anderton may be detrimental to some genres of music. But there's also plenty of music where the interest is not generated by the interaction between musicians, yet its still exciting music. I don't think that recording techniques are a major cause for the public's general lack of interest in music. There's plenty of good music out there. The problem is that most people aren't exposed to it. Musicians should help spread the word that there is a lots of good music out there available on college and community radio.

 

Also I do think that competition from other forms of home entertainment is significant. Now the consumer can choose to play a video/computer game, surf the web, choose from hundreds of TV channels, and watch almost any movie ever made on DVD. Its not like (and probably never will be again) the 1960's when there was a huge number of people at approximately the same age (teens-early twenties) with limited home entertainment options and an exciting new media format, the stereo LP.

[videoeditor1]

Apologies for not reading the whole thing, sorry if I'm repeating anything...

 

1. I agree witchya Craig. One big reason why I am predominantly a LIVE guy.

 

2. See 1 above.

[fantasticsound]

Originally posted by Gulliver:

...Also it always puzzles me when people complain about "too much editing" in contemporary music, yet the very same people are ready to enjoy movies (like Matrix, for instance) that basically are an editing paradise (or hell, depends on your point of view) and are almost completely artificial, so to speak...

This is not at all a fair comparison.

 

In movie production, editing is a finely honed skill that is accompanied by the talents of the cinematographer, director, and several other professionals. The editor's job is to make cuts that not only work visually, but support the timing of each scene and from one scene to another.

 

Editors in music production are supposed to be strict technicians. It is not their place to edit any way other than connecting pieces in the correct time. They have no control over the actual content, and the creative people rarely spend much time adjusting content to enhance edits.

 

Editing in audio is almost a mechanical function as opposed to the huge leeway afforded visual editors in movie and television production.

 

This ain't apples and oranges. It's apples and beef.

 

I would agree with Craig if it weren't for the huge popularity of modern R&B, Pop, and Rap. I hear lifeless creative and production in most of these genres, yet the public eats it up.

 

Me, I've been enjoying music that is an anachronism, even when it's been produced by heavy hitters. The Dixie Chicks' Home, Oh, Brother, Where Art Thou?, Johnny Cash's last American Recordings. These are albums that, whether or not they were recorded as a band or in pieces sound like a collaboration.

 

One of my favorite albums, Rhythm, Country & Blues, was the brainchild of the pres. of Mercury Records. He felt Country and R&B both represented systems in which a great song was paired with a great singer, a first rate studio band and you went in and recorded it as a live collaboration. The one dud, IMO, on that album hammers home the point that live collaboration works. The Reba McEntire/Natalie Cole cut was the only one in which the singers recorded separately, at different times in different places. It kinda lays there. That is, when the two of them don't sound like egotistical divas trying to one-up each other.

 

In stark contrast, every other track evokes the cohesiveness Craig speaks of. One of the finest, of an entire album of great recordings, is the Sam Moore (Sam & Dave) - Conway Twitty cut of Rainy Night In Georgia. The end of the song is Sam and Conway cutting up and improvising. Several weeks after they recorded their vocals, Conway died. The track stands as a beautiful, joyous epitaph of Conway, and conveys spectacular images of two great talents really enjoying the work of recording together.

 

Anyone who wants to understand what Craig described should get this album and listen to it from start to finish.

[fantasticsound]

Oops! I forgot to mention..

 

In addition to great songs, singers and musicians, it takes a visionary producer to tie up all the elements into a cohesive package. On Rhythm, Country & Blues that job went to the incredible, Don Was.

[YourMotherShouldKnow]

This is an interesting topic...

[mikegrijak]

OK, here is the deal as I see it:

 

It is all about the FEEL of what is being portrayed in the recordings we hear today vs. say, the 40's and 50's When you have a bunch of world class musicians all playing in the same room at the same time, as it was with the early Motown for example, that can never be duplicated laying down the parts one at a time as we do today for the most part. That is why I love the very early Beatles and Stones stuff over their later work; it literally sounds like there is a honest-to-goodness BAND playing! Same thing with Buddy Holly, Nat King Cole, Andrews Sisters, Benny Goodman ect. It is all about the interaction between several top musicians that are feeding off of each other and giving to each other at the same time from the first note to the last! This is what is missing in modern multitrack recording!

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by hard truth:

I think most of the blame for the public's declining interest in music should be directed at radio, MTV and other outlets. In the old days (pre-1971 or so) a DJ could play a record that he liked and give it exposure. As a result cool, quirky songs became hits. When radio became more "professionalized," with more centralized corporate control and the use of marketing tools for programming (such as focus groups), radio music became more safe and homogenous.

Well you certainly won't get any argument from me there. That is indeed a huge part of the problem.

 

There's plenty of good music out there. The problem is that most people aren't exposed to it. Musicians should help spread the word that there is a lots of good music out there available on college and community radio.

Not to mention file sharing.

 

Also I do think that competition from other forms of home entertainment is significant. Now the consumer can choose to play a video/computer game, surf the web, choose from hundreds of TV channels, and watch almost any movie ever made on DVD. Its not like (and probably never will be again) the 1960's when there was a huge number of people at approximately the same age (teens-early twenties) with limited home entertainment options and an exciting new media format, the stereo LP.

Unless people eventually burn out on sitting at home alone with their computers and TV's and recognize the intrinsic value of getting out and hanging with other real humans. Maybe even humans that haven't been perfectly "edited" with breast/penis enhancement, liposuction, etc...

[Tedly Nightshade]

There's a fair amount of people finding more magic in messing around with instruments on a strictly amateur, even play, level, than they are finding in live music or recordings.

 

Unless you really know where to look and have a healthy intuition, there's not much you're likely to find in live music or recorded that gives you those kicks.

[Phil B]

I definitely think that's part of the problem, Craig. In fact, can anyone name a truly timeless and indispensible song with synths and samples? There's got to be some, but I just can't think of any. One problem with digitally manufactured music (and the same with "special effect movies") is that they sound (or look) dated within a year. I don't know if its that musicians aren't playing a room together, or that there are less great artists making passionate music with a point of view. Or maybe it's the fact that so much is cleaned up in today's music that our brains can't fathom any emotional "truth" in it.

 

Whatever is going on, I don't believe it's downloading that's hurt the music industry. Look at a band like Wilco -- practically their entire core fan base has their new album even though it won't be officially released until June 22nd. One "fan" set up a website where those that have downloaded it can make a donation to charity. They've raised over $4,000 already. And I can't pretty much guarantee that practically all of that core fan base with buy a copy of the album when it's released. They make music with integrity and have developed a loyal following that can't wait to hear what Jeff Tweedy will sing to them next. The problem is the music. And I think you're on to something, Craig, that the "human element" may be missing in way too much of what's out there. I guess we'll see what happens when Lola and Leon release their first album.

[Anderton]

It's been brought up that the fact that music is done by one person doesn't mean it has to be problematic. As someone who does a lot of music by myself, I agree it's possible...but someone mentioned BT, and look at all the "guest artists" on his new CD. THAT is exactly what I mean: the thing may be edited to shreds, but it has input from other living, breathing human beings.

 

My tunes are a lot better because of the live playing that I do. It's not because I get to have the band fly over from Germany and play parts, but playing live just changes my outlook and I think it really improves what I do. Even using samples and loops from other people breathes life into tunes.

 

Still, I think the reason I get away with it is because what I do with my solo material is more "composition" rather than "playing," and in that context, it hopefully works. Still, the more input I have from others -- even if it's just sending a tune to a friend and getting comments -- the better the music is.

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by Hanshananigan:

I've seen mention before about live music losing it's crowd. Can someone qualify what that means?

Concert ticket sales and local music club attendance are down. WAY down. Any of us musicians who've been out there gigging for a long time have noticed that. There are a whole lot of reasons for this, but it's been steadily declining for the last 5-7 years and the past two have been absolutely dismal.