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When Jazz Ruled the World


ElmerJFudd

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Donald Fagen had said that his favorite jazz was before the mid-60s. After that jazz became too modal for him, and musicians focused too much on technique and scales and not enough on melody. I have to agree that I prefer the older jazz.

 

Jazz got too sophisticated for the layman and the average consumer just can't comprehend that clever stuff. That's why jazz declined in the market. ELP and Yes ran into that too.

 

Though my mind is somewhat open... ( I like Bill Evans, Monk, Thad and Mel, Sonny Rollins, Trane, Miles with Herbie etc) as time passes and I hear the emphasis of younger players on patterns, which usually are not felt as melodic, I increasingly find myself appreciating the older cats... including Louis Armstrong. As much as I love Coltrane.. lesser players imitating his devotion to a book Like Slonimsky's patterns.. is not such a good idea. Why? Because Melody is boss.

You don't have ideas, ideas have you

We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement

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Fashion makes it hard to be serious about integrity in Jazz, powers that want to be want simple music, in a way. It should be normal quality Jazz is celebrated as one of the ost important forms of music, without betraying itself to games of plagiarism or succumbing to bowing hip but useless technology.

 

I've started to want 4 DVD's about the (old) history of Jazz, which is interesting thus far. Beautiful music

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... as time passes and I hear the emphasis of younger players on patterns, which usually are not felt as melodic, I increasingly find myself appreciating the older cats.... ...Why? Because Melody is boss.
Thanks for saying that. You put into words what I sometimes have difficulty expressing or explaining to other jazz lovers. I can construct unusual changes and off-beat lines, but that doesn't make them listenable or entertaining or emotionally engaging. But I can become overcome with emotion listening to a Louis Armstrong recording, especially when he sings a verse then takes a solo on trumpet. And it's actually fun to play Herbie Hancock's "Watermelon Man' or Joe Zawinul's "Mercy Mercy Mercy" on keys. I used to play Grover Washington's "Mister Magic" on sax. That was an emotional high too. It's all good and it's all jazz.
These are only my opinions, not supported by any actual knowledge, experience, or expertise.
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This thread really hits home: I have twin (age 16) boys, juniors in high school, who have made all kinds of all-state bands, all star junior jazz bands, etc. One plays sax and piano (he's already playing solo jazz piano gigs at local country clubs and high end restaurants), the other plays trumpet (and plays with the Cincinnati Youth Jazz Orchestra) and guitar. We also play together in a rock pop band (mainly horn-oriented material).

 

We just did a campus tour yesterday at the Cincinnati College Conservatory of Music, a well respected school for the arts.

 

Of course, they were both excited about the possibility of continuing their jazz studies... until I asked them if they would be happy moving to NY/LA/Chicago and making $50k per year... living barely above poverty level.

 

Our home studio has 12 guitars (mainly Gibson Historics), a Korg Krome, Hammond SK1, a newer Yamaha edrum kit, and a nice, new PA/mixer; ie, a great setup for all but the most discriminating musician (I've had a very good career in the investment business).

 

My point to them was: there's no chance I would have been able to afford all that nice stuff had I chosen a "career" in music.

 

Why not choose a career making good money, and see if that doesn't get you 99% of your life's goals?

 

I have played in hobby bands since '87, and have had a blast doing so, and they have WAY more talent than I have... but, sooner or later, reality sets in.

 

Sorry to hijack but I'm absolutely interested in any and all thoughts, comments, advice, criticisms, etc.

 

 

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My point to them was: there's no chance I would have been able to afford all that nice stuff had I chosen a "career" in music.

 

Why not choose a career making good money, and see if that doesn't get you 99% of your life's goals?

Excellent advice from a parent's perspective. However, your sons could possibly be great enough musicians to have rewarding "careers" in the music business too.

 

My advice would be allowing them to pursue their music education to the fullest extent and if possible, obtain a minor degree in another area of interest/study.

 

There are lucrative careers in the music business that go beyond playing in bands and being stage performers. :cool:

PD

 

"The greatest thing you'll ever learn, is just to love and be loved in return."--E. Ahbez "Nature Boy"

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Of course, they were both excited about the possibility of continuing their jazz studies... until I asked them if they would be happy moving to NY/LA/Chicago and making $50k per year... living barely above poverty level.

I'm curious where, or how you came up with that $50K figure? You think it's possible to move to any of those areas and make $50K/year playing full-time doing local gigs?

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Therein lies the real problem: what kind of parent would I be if I limited my kids (in any way, not just music)? Where do I draw the line between reality and "chasing you dreams"?

 

CCM made it very clear that majoring in performance (on any instrument) and minoring in another field is doable "if you don't like sleep".

 

Their interest (again, 16 yr olds lol) is strictly in performance... at this time.

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Just speaking hypothetically: I have no actual idea what a jazzer could make in those cities.

 

Feel free to correct/enlighten me... I'm happy to get accurate info... even at the expense of me sounding foolish lol.

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"The average Trumpet Player in New York City, NY makes $60,782"

 

If you're a first-call person that has a hit Broadway show, maybe. Those gigs are very hard to come by, especially if you're new in town and don't have connections. Most Broadway musicians start out as subs on shows, a rather thankless but necessary part of breaking into that scene. And there is trouble right now with the union's pension fund. Those who've been working shows their whole lives are looking at a very different retirement picture unfortunately.

 

If you're talking about playing jazz in local clubs and making $60K/year, I have a bridge in Brooklyn you may be interested in!

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I am a full time pro musician .

Those figures you provided, must be for a trumpet player in a major symphonic orchestra!

The median dollar amount did not say "jazz musician" either.

It has gotten increasingly more difficult to make a living in music, for me and many other older musicians I know.

Teaching becomes almost a guaranteed necessity. I do not teach... wish I could.

 

The missing aspect is maybe this: Music as a career has to almost drag the rational mind into the musician web..... I was compelled to be a musician.

Whatever talents your boys have beyond music, OUGHT to be encouraged.

If one of them strongly resists, I can relate. I resisted as a kid.

 

So to list attributes needed

 

Education in both music... composition, teaching various instruments, instrumental performance

Education in fields other than music... eg broadly speaking.. "computers".

If one of them has a knack for a trade, by all means, it should be encouraged.

Avoiding or curtailing drug and alcohol is always a preferable route, as they have more minuses than gains.

 

Then there is depth of Interest in music. Full time music, for me, means for a teen incredible amounts of enjoyable and directed study. I loved playing scales as a teen,,

only high interest in music, can account for that. IMO intense interest in the fundamentals of music are necessary... and this cannot be encouraged by you... but ought to be observed by you in the boys. You cannot force interest in music discipline.

Fundamentals are well known in a conservatory, but

Sight reading

sight singing

counterpoint

composition

minimum of 5 + hours of practice per day

ear training through transcribing solos, compositions

 

If you observe deviation from this... then a fine part time career in music, is a wise choice.

Full time music in 21 st century is for the rarest of musicians. Toward the end of my career, it has been a tough road.

The boys can have a career in other avenues while enjoying music part time.

You cannot force any of this... just observe the degree of intensity of interest

if a boy is playing 8 hours a day... you may have a genuine musician on your hands!

 

But this is not intended to discourage anyone.. I respect people with dual careers too.

You don't have ideas, ideas have you

We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement

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I just had this conversation with a drummer who makes his living playing music, not teaching or anything else. He said the same thing that other pro musicians have said to me before: "If I could do anything else, I would."
These are only my opinions, not supported by any actual knowledge, experience, or expertise.
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Thank you!

 

 

I forgot this.. There is a tendency among the young, to play a little guitar, and a little bit of keys, and drums, and spend lots of time on computer based music, like sequencing, sampling, Ableton etc.

 

The problem with this, is lack of great intensity on one area. Eg composing, or a specific instrument.

The tricky part of this, is some of the best musicians I know of, play 10 instruments

including Stevie Wonder, arguably a genius.

So it might be hard to observe the distinction between a dabbler and a person with great drive and talent for music.

The musicians I knew who played multiple instruments, ALSO were well on their way towards mastering one instrument; or composing.

There is nothing wrong with exploring 10 instruments including Fruity Loops, Ableton and so on. But there is a big difference between a very strong musician doing this and your average millennial doing this.

In earlier stages of development, a player will jump around from one instrument to another. This is a positive thing, as the player is having a nice time discovering a deep connection. But if after a few years, they are still not powerfully magnetized by one instrument or instrument family ( woodwinds, or keyboards ) , I don't know, sounds more like insufficient depth of intensity, that is needed to be a professional.

 

As long as drug culture is not too present, I think it is a great thing for a youngster to be drawn to music, while at the same time, towards eg athletics or science.

You don't have ideas, ideas have you

We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement

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I read Donald Fagen's comment about his favorite jazz being from pre 1965. I considered it for a minute but didn't agree...

 

I think after 1965 jazz broke out of the box in sometimes interesting ways.

 

Keith Jarrett was obviously doing some interesting things in the early 70's. His Rhodes/ Fender organ un accompanied improv on " What I say" from Miles Davis LIVE EVIL is still one of my favorite performances by him. Jarrett battled inferior gear to create one great example of spontaneous composition... if you haven't heard it, check it out. It happens late in the track.

 

Jarrett also sparkled on the Keith Jarrett / Gary Burton album, Solo Concerts and Belonging on ECM. I was less than excited by his Standards group.... I preferred much ( but not all ) of his work in the 70's.

 

Another recording actually from 1980 that floors me is Bill Evans " Last Waltz" recorded live at the Keystone Corner during the last week of his life. Last Waltz indeed.

 

Bill plays - literally- like it's the last time he will ever play. It's not the sedate Village Vanguard Bill Evans, though I love that too. He plays like the all time heavyweight champ of piano, taking on all comers. A recording not to be missed.

 

As I said in an earlier post, a lot of pioneers emerged in the 70's. Some under the category of fusion jazz, which I certainly wasn't opposed to at the time.

 

I thought the 70's was a good healthy time for jazz. While I was going to the University of Oregon in the mid 70's they would bring in the top jazz talent literally every week. I saw Chick, Weather Report, McCoy Tyner, Art Blakey, George Benson.... the full list will eventually come back to me. They brought in just about every mane jazz group during that period.

 

That was my real music school.

 

 

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I read Donald Fagen's comment about his favorite jazz being from pre 1965. I considered it for a minute but didn't agree...

 

I think after 1965 jazz broke out of the box in sometimes interesting ways.

 

Keith Jarrett was obviously doing some interesting things in the early 70's. His Rhodes/ Fender organ un accompanied improv on " What I say" from Miles Davis LIVE EVIL is still one of my favorite performances by him. Jarrett battled inferior gear to create one great example of spontaneous composition... if you haven't heard it, check it out. It happens late in the track.

 

Jarrett also sparkled on the Keith Jarrett / Gary Burton album, Solo Concerts and Belonging on ECM. I was less than excited by his Standards group.... I preferred much ( but not all ) of his work in the 70's.

 

Another recording actually from 1980 that floors me is Bill Evans " Last Waltz" recorded live at the Keystone Corner during the last week of his life. Last Waltz indeed.

 

Bill plays - literally- like it's the last time he will ever play. It's not the sedate Village Vanguard Bill Evans, though I love that too. He plays like the all time heavyweight champ of piano, taking on all comers. A recording not to be missed.

 

As I said in an earlier post, a lot of pioneers emerged in the 70's. Some under the category of fusion jazz, which I certainly wasn't opposed to at the time.

 

I thought the 70's was a good healthy time for jazz. While I was going to the University of Oregon in the mid 70's they would bring in the top jazz talent literally every week. I saw Chick, Weather Report, McCoy Tyner, Art Blakey, George Benson.... the full list will eventually come back to me. They brought in just about every mane jazz group during that period.

 

That was my real music school.

 

 

My taste in jazz and music in general, is growing more in an omni direction ...

By saying I like Louis Armstrong etc, that did not mean I don't like Freddie Hubbard.

 

But I am replying because you mention the incomparable Bill Evans. i listened to the performance you suggested, shortly before his passing; I wanted to thank you. Every time I think I have the general idea of a great player, a newly discovered recording proves me limited. That recording of Bill Evans is awesome for me.

He was one of a kind. A Fantastic imagination and ability to play what he imagines. Or whatever it is that the greats do when incredible music comes through them.

Very cool.

 

You don't have ideas, ideas have you

We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement

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Donald Fagen had said that his favorite jazz was before the mid-60s. After that jazz became too modal for him, and musicians focused too much on technique and scales and not enough on melody. I have to agree that I prefer the older jazz.

 

Jazz got too sophisticated for the layman and the average consumer just can't comprehend that clever stuff. That's why jazz declined in the market. ELP and Yes ran into that too.

 

Just because it is sophisticated and clever doesn't mean it cannot be appreciated by a wider audience. But, on the other hand, market success is often a poor measure of quality. IMHO bands like Snarky Puppy and EST showed what jazz could be at their times and the future will bring even more electronica and dance music influences, loops etc. Improvisational music which is still very danceable - just like the "old times jazz".

Rock bottom bass

Fakebook Pro Sheet Music Reader - at every gig!

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If Jazz ruled the world.......every day would be the first day of spring

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Yamaha: CP4, DGX-620, DX7II-FD-E!, PF85, DX9

Roland: VR-09, RD-800

 

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