Covering horns on keyboard

[WesG]

Outkaster - wow, the minute you started talking, the intro from "Buffalo Soldier" popped into my head.

 

A trick for playing horn parts that I recently discovered is that sometimes a REAL fast portamento can help get that bend up/fall that some horn sections do. This really depends on the part, but if you think it out ahead of time, it can work. And is the only way I can control note bends when my other hand is playing clavinet or organ. A quick, quiet grace note placed right, just before the "money notes" set the direction and distance of the portamento glissandi.

[Jon G]

I like the Korg synths for brass sounds, seems to blend in with a band better for me. Yamaha used to be not as good but have improved with the later versions of the Motif/Montage. I know guys that prefer Roland synths. I used to use a converted Roland brass section sample from their old CD ROM library on my Kurzweil K2000 in combination with a brass sound MIDIed from an old Korg synth module. Worked well for many years.

 

I think it helps to have at least one horn in the band. I used to double horn lines with the sax player in a band I was in - it seemed a little more authentic. A blues rock band I play in now - the singer does NOT like fake brass so if I have to, I'll play horn lines with an organ sound on my Electro.

[mate stubb]

I think it helps to have at least one horn in the band.

 

+1000. I used to get a very decent sound playing heads in a jazz quartet with a sax player. I would use a solo trumpet on my old JV-80. I didn't do solos on it though it sounded good enough in unison with the real horn.

[Quai34]

Hi,

I've been covering Brass a lot during the past 3 years in 3 different bands and I will try to give you some inputs.

A) Alternative Rock Band

1) First, make sure you explain to them what has already been said, that Horns section are built from different lines, with intervals that are usually completely different from the keyboards ones, especially, 4th, 5th, octave and so on and that, even if you find a great patch, it's going to take you a lot of time to play it right, using your two hands, with pitch bend and so on, thus, you won't be able to do your usual duties as a keys player....

If they are ok with that and/or if you all agreed that you will do your best but still keep the most important parts as a keys player, then go for it, you will have made them fully aware of the limitations that you have on keys and then, they won't have high expectations and won't be disappointed.....In fact, anytime I do that in my bands, they think it's like a real one....Well, I don't, but you understand the trick.

2) The first time I played Horns in my Alternatve Rock band (Weezer, tragically hips, black submarine etc....), it was when I finally convinced them to play Sledgehammer.... They accept it because:

a) I got the Shukahachi sound perfectly nailed between the Emu sample on my Stage 2 layered with the Emu one from the Proteus and the one from the D50....

b) I got the very good brass sound from Nord, the baritone/Sax horn split that was used on the program and they loved it, telling me that it was exactly the right sound.

c) The drummer's girl friend was a big fan of this song....

Well, I don't know which one helped the most but coming from guys who were playing for years without any keys, it was big for them....

Conclusion 1:

If you do the little trick I said and if they really want to do the song, they will do like the girls and their pals and whoever are with them on the dance floor, they will not put shit on you, they will even compliment you on your "perfect " sound....You might finally be the only one to think that it's way far from perfect....

Conclusion 2:

Coming from the Shukahachi story, if you start the song with a very good keys/synth/organ/piano part, they will stick to the first impression, the first feeling, and like the crowds, they will feel that you are good with the brass part.

3) Second song that I played brass in was also with them, Radar Love.... I did a layer with Nord samples plus Emu samples plus XV5080 samples.... And because I followed the bass part, again, another layer, thus, very "realistic", at least for the band members and the public... And it was a special request...And I had no duties during the bridge on keys, so both hands available for the horn line....

B) Classic Rock Band doing also R&B stuff

1) James Brown, I feel good.

I'm lucky enough to have taken lessons in brass arrangements and harmony in France from a guy who had done Berkley music school in Boston and had worked with Quincy Jones as a teacher, the school he was running was even, BMS of Paris....Then, for this one, I just thought first about how I would arrange it even before trying to find a good sound. Then, when I was ok with it, both hands, 4th and fifth, Octaves and 5th etc, well, change of position/arrangement for each "padapadapada"... I started to listen to each samples on my Nord, ditto on my XV and ditto on my Emu.... Anytime I have one that is close, I try it with the second, then with the third, etc....Yes, if takes a lot of time but even after a pure big band who played it one hour before us at our last gig, we were not ridiculous a all. Same thing for "My own way to rock, Burtons Cummings"

 

Of course: for all of them, the brass is ALWAYS on Control pedal and if I could find a sample that does the "decrescendo lines/Fall down line" in volume and pitch like a real horns, I use it under a straight one and manage it with the pedal...Then it feels like there is some players who did this fall down and some who just kept the note tight....It works very well....

Same thing for the sample, thy to find one that work with the filter opening with the velocity...All in all it gives you a very good alternative to a real brass section....

Enough anyway to have my Calssic Rock Band considering that the best songs we have are the ones where I do a lot of brass section....Plus Piano and Organ of course as well....

So, when they ask me to play these songs just with keys, because the time for the set up is short and I have the time to bring only the stage 2 for example, I simply refuse to play them due to the amount of time I spent on them....It's all or nothing....

 

C) Bruno Mars:

It's more the rhythm that is important on a song like Uptown funk.

Fist, don't play it just with one note on the upper register. Play it with full chords. Yes, at the tempo and on a weighted keyboard you really have to be precise but cool at the same time otherwise you feel/sound rigid in your playing....

But be on the tempo, your are the upper groove that responds to the beat groove given by the bass....Guitar is doing the gimmick straight, not the pure groove....

Same solution, Nord plus Roland only this time, but two Nord Samples, well, 3 layers, but I worked on the rhythm and making sure I was really in place first before looking for sounds....

Final conclusion:

Listen to the song, decide which approach is the key to the realism of the song:

Approach one, quality of Samples?

Approach 2, quality of playing arrangement?

Approach two, accuracy of rhythm and horn in time?

Then, you could decide which one works best like the 3 examples I gave to you and done....

Ok, a real Tower of Power section has all of them: Quality of sound, of playing, of beat on time....But remember the first trick, explain them.....blablabla, thus lower expectations....

That's it

Sincerely

 

[Quai34]

To add songs which I have spent a lot on brass, Further up on the road by Eric Clapton and John Mayer....

The ones that I will have to find a lot of time and that I son spider my next big challenge for brass AND keys and strings parts are:

September

Let's Groove, both by EWF

Holidays.

Get into the groove, both by Madonna, k owing that I would like to do the live version where brass are more present but also a lot of percussions...

Chic, LE Freak and Good Times....These are part of the new Funk/Dance band that I've Just started, like the OP, two glory at the front, one bass, one guitar, one drum one bassist....Girls might help on some little parts on Keytar of I cannot manage all at conce....

That's it....

You spend a lot of time, 3/5 to even 7 hours for the all set up per song but when you got it, well, that sounds good....and at 7 players, if the girls are hot and sing well, they won't pay attention too much at your brass and will pay you the 1500$/2000$ per gig for 3 hours....

Sincerely

[stoken6]

I'd love to see a "divisi" feature in hardware on a board that intelligently splits notes in a chord among "players"/voices. So if you play one note, three voices play it: trumpet/tenor/bone. A three note chord gets divided up among the players appropriately. Two notes - trumpet on top, others below. This would add a lot to the realism.

 

I know this is available in software - can VAST do this kind of thing?

 

Cheers, Mike.

[WesG]

It'd be even more awesome if you could request, say, Glenn Miller and it would take "CEGBb" and turn it into something like C G Bb E bone/tenor/trumpet/clarinet with alto playing the tenor part up and octave, alto doubling trumpet, and another trumpet doubling clarinet.

[AnotherScott]

back in the 70s and early 80s, musicians would ooh and aah the studio keyboard cats who could take synthesis one step closer to the real thang. I'm thinking of some Eagles song where they talk about taking TWO whole days to synthesize the sax line. Instead of hiring Tom Scott. hmmm.

 

It was Don Henley, 'All She Wants to Do is Dance.' I remember the article in Keyboard about how they kept inserting MIDI pitch bend events until it sounded right. It still didn't sound very good, IMO.

This reminds me of an interview where the producer (?) of Bowie's Suffragette City commented that everyone thought there was brass on that that song, but it was synth (Moog, I think). Listening to it now, sure, it's synth. But if you heard in 1972 when synths weren't widely known to be able to do these kinds of sounds, I can see thinking brass.

[stoken6]

Both Henley and Bowie examples are great songs let down by the desire to use new technology for some reason. A real tenor (and real Hammond in 'All she wants...") would make a big difference.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[The Real MC]

I really prefer live horns. Emulating horn sections on keys is not easy and forget about emulating a solo instrument. Besides the open chords over two hands, there are a lot of subtle inflections that aren't obvious to a non-horn player. It amazes me the world of expression that a horn player can produce with just their embouchure.

 

The more you realize the expressions being used, the more evident it becomes that a keyboard with pitch/mod wheels just doesn't cut the mustard.

 

The same can be said for guitar, harmonica, violin, other instruments. Sure you can get those tones on a synth but getting the expressions is another story.

[eric]

There have been a few threads on this over the years. I'm kind of a purist, having played in a couple of horn-driven bands over the past several decades. My main band these days does not have horns and I will only selectively try and do horn sounds via keyboard (I have David Bowie's Let's Dance down pretty well). Otherwise I don't love emulating horns and will use analog brass and organ in some cases.

[El Lobo]

... there are a lot of subtle inflections that aren't obvious to a non-horn player. It amazes me the world of expression that a horn player can produce with just their embouchure.

 

The more you realize the expressions being used, the more evident it becomes that a keyboard with pitch/mod wheels just doesn't cut the mustard.

 

... Sure you can get those tones on a synth but getting the expressions is another story.

What he said. As a horn player who doubles on keys, I hafta say that there are lots of things that horn players do that keys can't emulate very well (and vice versa). I've read here things about pitch bend and mod wheels and such. Fact is, horn players can't bend pitch very much, but they do move it around a lot, use vibrato, etc. Too much pitch bend on keys doesn't sound right. And no instrument is perfectly in tune throughout its range so horn players use their ears to micro-tune their intonation as they go along. Keys don't do that which is one reason they don't sound like real horns. Horns also vary their attack and tongue some notes while they slur others - yet another way in which keys can't emulate horns. This is why it sounds better to have 1 real horn OR to re-arrange the horn parts so they sound like they are meant to be played on keys - synth, organ, whatever.

[Barryjam]

 

For me, the most useful knowledge came in the form of a book of Chicago transcriptions -- not a fake book, but note-for-note -- I got in the 1970s. A quick check of Amazon shows that you can still get that. Well worth playing through.

 

Can you share the title of the book? I want to make sure I have found the right one.

[bfields]

That may be the most helpful set of responses I've gotten to an internet forum post anywhere, ever. Thanks so much!

 

I experimented with a few ideas last night without a lot of success, but that's not too surprising--there don't seem to be any quick fixes. Something to keep working on for the longer term.

 

Meanwhile I'll continue mainly on keyboard patches. Thanks for the nudge to think a little more creatively about that, I've probably been passing up opportunities to make some of those parts a little more keyboard-y.

 

I'll hold off on new hardware for now. Though I should find a two-tiered stand at least--trying to copy the organ parts I hear is painful on the heavy action. No news to anyone else, I know, but I'm really just a pianist, so this is all new to me.

 

Anyway, it's all fun. Thanks again!

[ProfD]

I'm having trouble figuring out what to do with horn parts.

 

The only other hardware I have available to me right now is an Alesis QS-61...

Great advice has already been provided. The forum rocks.

 

It has been a long time since I've heard the samples in the Alesis QS. But, it should work by applying some of the tips mentioned here especially when it comes to mixing up different horn samples and synth brass for the sound and voicing/playing them properly.

 

The trick is not trying to recreate Tower of Power on a KB. It's coming up with a composite phat brass sound that gets the job done i.e. covers the part(s) while the crowd keeps on dancing.

 

[Tom Williams]

For me, the most useful knowledge came in the form of a book of Chicago transcriptions -- not a fake book, but note-for-note -- I got in the 1970s. A quick check of Amazon shows that you can still get that. Well worth playing through.

Can you share the title of the book? I want to make sure I have found the right one.

I apologize -- I meant "you can still get note-for-note Chicago transcriptions."

 

The one I had, which strangely re-scored the sax as 2nd trumpet, is probably long out of print. Its songs appear to be split among the two I found on Amazon, Volume 1 and Volume 2.

 

I think volume 1 will have some good examples of the technique -- I learned a lot from Beginnings, 25 or 6 to 4, and particularly Make me Smile.