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What Quincy was referring to?


ElmerJFudd
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Mr Fudd... How you doin?

So this thread refers to another recent thread about Quincy Jones?

The reason I ask, is the video above, only speaks of Ringo and Purdie. Without benefit of having read the Quincy Jones thread here., that I ignored or maybe quickly forgot... I will comment about my impressions/ reactions, mixed with a few actual experiences.

 

At first, I guess I resisted the ( mid sixties ) Beatles.. I mean they took away from me, in a sense, the music I loved. That is my mind as a teen.

As decades passed, I warmed up to their talents. The more time passed, the greater was my appreciation. So we see an arc, starting with reluctant acknowledgment of their somewhat talent natures... all the way to now.. where I have completely turned around.

 

Using the above arc, as applied to Ringo... I of course did not start out thinking too much of him... little by little I figured he is well, simple, and good enough..

 

Fast forward to my recently ( an old dog, learns a new trick ) meeting a guy who travels in those rock circles... He is an excellent rock bass player... as a matter of fact.. the notion of Rock bass playing always left me a little cold. Cold, ( yuck, rock bass ugh, my old attitude ) until I heard this man, play elec bass in front of me with no other players, just him! His talent for rock bass. completely knocked me and my ego where it belongs, on my butt. He helped me to continue to broaden my ever widening appreciation for styles I dismissed towards the beginning of my career.

He played the hell out of Rock bass lines.. and kicked my butt, in terms like... 'Whoa, there is no way I could play those lines the way this guy does..( I could play the lines, but not the all important WAY he played them ) His conviction, his tone... He just knocked me out. Sorry, but his credibility is key to the next step in my explanation about Ringo.

 

HE told ( shocked ) me Ringo was viewed as a Great great drummer amongst his peers and people at the top of that world .

Jazz and Blues, and other musicians including Purdie who might mock this statement, be damned. I said Ringo's world, not the R&B or Soul or Session, or Jazz worlds.. No, the Rock world ( I am using the term Rock and I hope that is not too vague for some of you... Beatles to me are great song writers who roughly come under the umbrella of Rock ) , that is where Ringo is a god on drums. And not because these musicians may want to kiss Ringo's feet, no, sincerely, because Ringo really is a bad dude on the Drums. This bad dude for Rock bass, taught me two lessons ( paradigm shift City ) that day...

1. There is more to Rock bass than I previously ( nearly half a century ) thought ( in my arrogance ) and 2. Ringo has such a great feel and is an integral part of Beatles greatness.

 

The other thing I can add, is I may have mentioned in another thread, I did a record date ( not a demo ) at Media Sound I think it was called with the great session drummer Purdie... just one date. Apparently. Purdie's main man, Rainey was busy!

 

At that date, Purdie told me I was out of tune! His opinion, or just busting me?... but the producer never mentioned my pitch. Because I did NOT attempt to tune up.

 

Purdie, not unlike another great drummer, Buddy Rich... absolutely embody undeniable greatness, uniqueness, genius maybe... but they also have a good dose of bravado as well. I respect guys like that, guys who are balls to the wall powerful in their laying down a beat, and strong, in your face, east coast personalities. But with those gifts also can come the boastful side ...I am ok with all of it.

Look, Mr Ego has gotten us all in trouble at one time or another.

But I think the great great Player Bernard Purdie, is out of his depth with his disparaging opinion of another great player from another world, Ringo Starr.

 

I can listen to the opinion of a killer rock bass player who understands rock as neither I nor Purdie do, OR listen to Bernard, writing a book about his association with the greatest group of the 20 century, by some standard anyway.

You don't have ideas, ideas have you

We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement

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Excellent post Tee. :thu:

 

The beauty of music lies in the fact that there are different strokes (no pun intended)for different folks or in this case...musicians.

 

IMO, it is flawed thinking too criticize that which one does not truly or fully understand or accept.

 

Unfortunately, some gifted and/or talented people develop huge egos. To some degree, human accolades i.e. jock riding, leads many to read their own press clippings.

 

As a result of that, it is easy for some folks to end up being a arrogant, self-indulged pricks.

 

I'm not laying that arrogant tag on QJ or Purdie. Just saying, I understand how cats end up there.

 

A musician's greatness is bestowed upon them by peers and fans within their circle.

 

So, if Rock musicians believe Ringo is a great drummer, only that matters.

 

Personally, I hate musician pissing contests. I've never been overly impressed with chops and technical facility.

 

I'd much rather hear a motherf8cker shut up and play some music I can dig.

 

Thankfully, QJ, Ringo and Purdie have all done that at one time or another. ;):cool:

 

 

 

PD

 

"The greatest thing you'll ever learn, is just to love and be loved in return."--E. Ahbez "Nature Boy"

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Hi, in a nutshell - Quincy did an interview with no filter where he disparaged a lot of players and genres that aren't from the school he came up from. But he used the Beatles as his main example calling them "no-playing, m0ther f%©kers". Then described a session he claimed to be present at where Ringo was asked to leave because he had poor timing and feel. He says that he asked Ringo to go get himself a drink, they had a session player lay down the part instead, and Ringo returned to listen to the playback feeling it wasn't so bad. Quincy suggests Ringo didn't know he'd been replaced on the recording.

 

He spoke about a lot of conspiracy stuff, even the Kennedy assisination where he says in his celebrity circles all know it was a mob hit as payback for his father's dirty deals.

 

I'm more inclined after watching this Purdie tale picked apart a bit to feel that Quiny's story also stretches the truth.

 

No doubt the advancement of recording and production technology has made it easier to get desired results - in pop genres the drummers of the past have all but been replaced by drum programming. Although the feel Purdie's generation created is often sampled cut pasted stretched and otherwise.

Yamaha CP88, Roland VR-700, Crumar Mojo, rebuilt 1910 Chickering 5'2", Fender Rhodes MKI 88k, Casio PX-560

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Excellent post Tee. :thu:

 

The beauty of music lies in the fact that there are different strokes (no pun intended)for different folks or in this case...musicians.

 

IMO, it is flawed thinking too criticize that which one does not truly or fully understand or accept.

 

Unfortunately, some gifted and/or talented people develop huge egos. To some degree, human accolades i.e. jock riding, leads many to read their own press clippings.

 

As a result of that, it is easy for some folks to end up being a arrogant, self-indulged pricks.

 

I'm not laying that arrogant tag on QJ or Purdie. Just saying, I understand how cats end up there.

 

A musician's greatness is bestowed upon them by peers and fans within their circle.

 

So, if Rock musicians believe Ringo is a great drummer, only that matters.

 

Personally, I hate musician pissing contests. I've never been overly impressed with chops and technical facility.

 

I'd much rather hear a motherf8cker shut up and play some music I can dig.

 

Thankfully, QJ, Ringo and Purdie have all done that at one time or another. ;):cool:

 

 

 

This is bordering on embarrassing but I love your post here :D:blush:

 

I swear, I am not :steve: for no compliments or nothing like that.

 

But this sentence knocks it out of the park for me. You observed " IMO, it is flawed thinking too criticize that which one does not truly or fully understand or accept."

 

I love love that.. to me it is wisdom not just smarts.

 

You don't have ideas, ideas have you

We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement

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If this is the same interview, Quincy also mentioned that Michael Jackson stole the bassline for Billie Jean from State Of Independence. But just the other day I read where some other musician said MJ came up to them saying he hoped they weren't mad that he wrote BJ based on the other musician's tune. Will edit if/when I remember who that was. Point being...truth has a sliding floor.
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If this is the same interview, Quincy also mentioned that Michael Jackson stole the bassline for Billie Jean from State Of Independence. But just the other day I read where some other musician said MJ came up to them saying he hoped they weren't mad that he wrote BJ based on the other musician's tune. Will edit if/when I remember who that was. Point being...truth has a sliding floor.

 

Hall & Oates

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If this is the same interview, Quincy also mentioned that Michael Jackson stole the bassline for Billie Jean from State Of Independence. But just the other day I read where some other musician said MJ came up to them saying he hoped they weren't mad that he wrote BJ based on the other musician's tune. Will edit if/when I remember who that was. Point being...truth has a sliding floor.

 

Hall & Oates

 

 

^^^^^ That's correct.

 

There is plenty written about Bernard Purdie and the Beatles. He did not replace Ringo on anything. He DID record drums on a couple of Atco releases of Tony Sheridan songs that had the (eventual) Beatles on them, with Pete Best on the drums. There were also a whole bunch of sound-alike releases at the time, and it's not impossible we would have been hired to be the session drummer for those. But there aren't any Beatles records (as them) with Purdie on drums.

"
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I don't know what was QJ reffering to, but i know for sure that Ringo Starr was a great musician, part of the greatest rock/pop combo of all times.

You can critisize his virtouosity, but who f@@@g cares for virtuosity? The gyu was essential part of the Beatles Sound, and this cannot be changed.

There are a gazzilion virtouoso drummers that will be forgotten after they put their stick down- there's one Ringo

(venting...)

 

Be grateful for what you've got - a Nord, a laptop and two hands
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I've read that Paul played drums on a few tracks on the White Album because he didn't like what Ringo played and replaced Ringo's drum tracks with his own. Subsequently, Ringo left the band for a short time. Is it speculation, the truth or untrue?
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In defense of Quincy

 

He is old, cantankerous, has huge successes behind him, with less likelihood of those successes returning.

He almost sounded like he had had more than a few cocktails, because he was so candid. But he was conscientious enough to not broach certain topics. Micheal Jackson and he most have had some friction, which is not uncommon among creatives.

He went just a bit too far with that Ringo assessment. He could not imagine how a humble simple drummer could have an issue with punching in a part. But I can understand it, having done it. Q could not, thus the over the top criticism of Ringo from Q.

 

But Q is no fool... he knows a lot that none of us are entirely privy to. But Purdie is incredible on drums and sessions, and Ringo is a bad dude with the Fab Four... 3 different points of view... skill sets, three wildly successful careers.

 

I am not permitted to draw analogies to other non music aspects of life, that I would like to.. so use your imaginations! :

 

2 people, both have their respective life experience.. having different as well as complimentary talents, skills, temperaments, points of view... BUT at some point friction comes to the surface, due to those differences. Then that big big mistake comes, "all too human", we start to judge the other... and even that is ok, if we don't go to far, but sadly we often do go too far in our judgements of those we do not empathize fully with.

I think this is an ancient, "classic" story about human interactions, human nature.

You don't have ideas, ideas have you

We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement

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For anyone who is wondering if Ringo played on the early Beatles albums, consider the description of how 10 of the 14 songs on the UK release of their first album "Please Please Me" were recorded in a single day: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Please_Please_Me

 

There is no way that someone other than Ringo could have been the drummer on those 10 tracks, both because of the compressed time to record of all them, and because when Lennon was at his loud-mouthed worst (early 70s) he would have blabbed something about this if it had been true.

 

I realize that a different drummer (Andy White) was used on the version of "Love Me Do" that was released on that album, and that Andy White is said to have been the drummer for some versions of the song "Please Please Me", neither of these two songs were among the 10 which were recorded on February 11, 1963.

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I've read that Paul played drums on a few tracks on the White Album because he didn't like what Ringo played and replaced Ringo's drum tracks with his own. Subsequently, Ringo left the band for a short time. Is it speculation, the truth or untrue?

 

True, but not because the parts were bad. Ringo quit the band for a short time, and Paul put drum tracks on a few songs. Dear Prudence has particularly notable evidence of Pauls insane natural musicianship.

"
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Sometimes it's just worth our time to hear and understand someone's point of view, regardless of our own.

 

I view Quincy Jones as an respected establishment musician of the early sixties. This was when a song was written, an arrangement written, and studio musicians who could read and play one time perfectly were brought into a studio and laid down the tracks.

 

Imagine the surprise, frustration, envy, (and who knows what) these folks had when four young men cracked that world wide open. They couldn't read. Hunh? They didn't play fast licks. They wrote their own material. And the teenagers went wild. (including me)

 

I would be flabbergasted if Quincy had my own view. I can respect (highly) him and his work and still allow that his times and my times are different.

 

I came to the same conclusion a few decades ago, with regard to my Dad. As I got older I gained more appreciation for who he was and what he stood for. But that didn't make his views my views. It just emphasized the meaning of 'respect'. It's not about agreement. It's about acceptance of different world views based on history and perspective.

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I read something years ago about classical musicians who had to play orchestral versions of Beatles tunes and thought the songs were very amateurish and showed how unschooled the Beatles were as songwriters. One thing they mentioned was how the songs used chords and changes that didn't resolve. Later on they came to appreciate what the Beatles were doing in their modern approach to songwriting. I don't think anyone thinks of Lennon, McCartney, Harrison (and George Martin?) as primitive or limited or simple or unsophisticated musicians or songwriters today. Ringo was the perfect drummer for their tunes.
These are only my opinions, not supported by any actual knowledge, experience, or expertise.
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I read something years ago about classical musicians who had to play orchestral versions of Beatles tunes and thought the songs were very amateurish and showed how unschooled the Beatles were as songwriters. One thing they mentioned was how the songs used chords and changes that didn't resolve. Later on they came to appreciate what the Beatles were doing in their modern approach to songwriting. I don't think anyone thinks of Lennon, McCartney, Harrison (and George Martin?) as primitive or limited or simple or unsophisticated musicians or songwriters today. Ringo was the perfect drummer for their tunes.

 

There are two sides to the Beatles' genius. One is how radically restless they were, particularly when every existing model would have suggested they could stay just as popular without kicking over any apple carts. And the other is how they were able to funnel their radical avant-restlessness into HIT SONGS, and do it in such sneaky and fully integrated ways that people didn't always know at first that genres were being advanced and customs busted open.

"
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I read something years ago about classical musicians who had to play orchestral versions of Beatles tunes and thought the songs were very amateurish and showed how unschooled the Beatles were as songwriters. One thing they mentioned was how the songs used chords and changes that didn't resolve. Later on they came to appreciate what the Beatles were doing in their modern approach to songwriting. I don't think anyone thinks of Lennon, McCartney, Harrison (and George Martin?) as primitive or limited or simple or unsophisticated musicians or songwriters today. Ringo was the perfect drummer for their tunes.

 

Ringo was also the perfect human for their tunes.

 

I'm reading the Paul biography now (Paul McCartney: The Life), and they mention that not only was Ringo a considerable upgrade in terms of musicianship, but he was just more like the other three and a guy they all loved to be around. He had the same sense of humor, quick wit, and sensibility, whereas that was not the case with Pete Best. Ringo was the last crucial piece of the puzzle for final liftoff for many reasons...

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Talk about how short comings in his technique and being a lefty forced him to come up with things he could pull off and contributed to the parts sounding unique.

 

[video:youtube]

Yamaha CP88, Roland VR-700, Crumar Mojo, rebuilt 1910 Chickering 5'2", Fender Rhodes MKI 88k, Casio PX-560

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Sometimes it's just worth our time to hear and understand someone's point of view, regardless of our own.

 

I view Quincy Jones as an respected establishment musician of the early sixties. This was when a song was written, an arrangement written, and studio musicians who could read and play one time perfectly were brought into a studio and laid down the tracks.

 

Imagine the surprise, frustration, envy, (and who knows what) these folks had when four young men cracked that world wide open. They couldn't read. Hunh? They didn't play fast licks. They wrote their own material. And the teenagers went wild. (including me)

 

I would be flabbergasted if Quincy had my own view. I can respect (highly) him and his work and still allow that his times and my times are different.

 

I came to the same conclusion a few decades ago, with regard to my Dad. As I got older I gained more appreciation for who he was and what he stood for. But that didn't make his views my views. It just emphasized the meaning of 'respect'. It's not about agreement. It's about acceptance of different world views based on history and perspective.

 

Many... excellent posts here, but for the sake of space.. Brilliant!... and btw just because we "know" something, that does not mean we embody it.

So though the words of wisdom here are not new, they feel timely/ valuable to hear.

 

But words fail where these guys wax poetic.

[video:youtube]

 

You don't have ideas, ideas have you

We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement

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It's disappointing to read this interview. Greatly diminishes any respect I had for the old coot. I suppose disparaging successful musicians, The Beatles and Ringo, MJ, makes him feel superior. He's not.
I agree. Bernard Purdie is a great drummer. But what's the point of saying that Ringo is not one of the drummers on the Beatles' music? It's an obviously false statement. It just makes Bernard Purdie less of a decent human being.
These are only my opinions, not supported by any actual knowledge, experience, or expertise.
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Guys guys, I grew up in repressive judgmental USA many moons ago..

I thought we had gone passed that.

We ALL have many flaws , not just those whose heads are visible.

Walk a mile in my shoes, applies.

You don't have ideas, ideas have you

We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement

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Sometimes it's just worth our time to hear and understand someone's point of view, regardless of our own.

 

I view Quincy Jones as an respected establishment musician of the early sixties. This was when a song was written, an arrangement written, and studio musicians who could read and play one time perfectly were brought into a studio and laid down the tracks.

 

Imagine the surprise, frustration, envy, (and who knows what) these folks had when four young men cracked that world wide open. They couldn't read. Hunh? They didn't play fast licks. They wrote their own material. And the teenagers went wild. (including me)

 

I would be flabbergasted if Quincy had my own view. I can respect (highly) him and his work and still allow that his times and my times are different.

 

I came to the same conclusion a few decades ago, with regard to my Dad. As I got older I gained more appreciation for who he was and what he stood for. But that didn't make his views my views. It just emphasized the meaning of 'respect'. It's not about agreement. It's about acceptance of different world views based on history and perspective.

 

Such wisdom, you are my Main Man this week :like::D

You don't have ideas, ideas have you

We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement

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