sound proofing a room

[jscoin]

i have about a 9' by 10' room with about a 11' cieling. and i was wondering what is the best way to sound proof it. i have a drumset in the room and there are 2 doors and 2 windows in the room. it has brick walls and concret floors (i think)and there is a desk and 3 book shelfs in the room. i would need a way to sound proof my drumset without pads on the drums, like somehow building a "little room" in my exiscting room. the room will have to accomidate 2 guitar players and a bass player and me. any chep ideas for this project, o ya i am kinda of on a budget...?

[Philip OKeefe]

Wow, this is quite a challenge. You've got a VERY small space, and building a "room within a room", while ideal, will probably make the room too small (which, IMO, it already is - I don't know how you're going to get everyone into it as is is now - it's just too small). First question - how much reduction do you need? Have you got a sleeping baby in the next room? Cranky neighbors? If so, you're in worse shape than someone with distant neighbors (inverse square law - sound drops by the inverse of the square of the distance - IOW, the more distance from the sound source, the less sound you'll hear - the sound drops about 6 dB each time you double the distance from the sound source), and if you're in that situation, you may as well forgetaboutit. To "soundproof" costs money. It takes mass, and trapped airspace to do it properly. And it has to be airtight - any gaps just provide a path for the sound to escape... As for the mass, your brick walls should help, but those windows and doorways are going to be HUGE problems, as is the small size of the room. ANd if you're in the same physically coupled structure as someone who is very sensitive to the loud sound (the "sleeping baby scenario), you've really got to decouple the new structure, which is just not going to be possible on a tight budget with such a small space... You will first of all, need to seal up all windows. As airtight and with as much mass as possible. Then you can build a new 2x4 wall / ceiling frame, "floated" on neoprene pads ("U Boats" from Auralex work pretty well) inside of the current room, spaced a couple inches in from the current wall - the more distance, the better, but the more distance, the smaller your room becomes. Then line the inside space between the old and new walls with fiberglass. Then layer the frame (on the side towards the interior of the room only) with several "layers" of material hung on RC (resilient channel - metal Z strips). On a really tight budget, I'd use a layer of 5/8" drywall, then a layer of Hemosote (fiberboard or "sound board"), and then a layer of 1/2" drywall. Then I'd use 1" or 2" compressed fiberglass board covered with burlap on the interior for some absorption. All of this will reduce the dimensions of your room by about 1.5' feet in each dimension - width and length, and about 9" of your height, assuming a 2" gap between the current and new walls. Which leaves the doors. Interior or exterior? Any space outside of those dorrways to build sound locks? You certainly don't have room inside to do a double door... Anyway, the best you can do here is probably going to be to hang the most massive (heavy) solid core doors you can find, and put great seals on them. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but IMO, this room and your situation are nearly insurmountable problems, and if offered the job of designing such a room, I'd decline it, because the results are probably going to fall short of your needs. But if you absolutely MUST use this room, you can try some of the suggestions I outlined. Good luck, Phil O'Keefe Sound Sanctuary Recording Riverside CA http://www.ssrstudio.com pokeefe777@ssrstudio.com

[henrysb3]

Depends on your budget, but you might consider making less sound, i.e. get digital drums or a drum pad and have your buddies play thru pods, monitor with headphones. There are purists who think all music recorded must be realisticly produced thru amps and speakers, but I'm of the opinion that though it may not be "all good", there's a lot to be missed when you limit your horizon. I have the fortune of more remote placement of my studio from neighbors, but I'm still spending some bucks and time trying to deaden it. You may not be able to play as loud as you like all the time, but when you do it can be a treat. Good luck Henry

[videoeditor1]

Like Phil said, It depends on how much sound you want to absorb, and also what frequencies. a 9x10 ft room with a 11 ft ceiling is not the ideal space to work with. It may be more cost effective for you to pull the plug now, cease from developing this space any further, and invest the little dough you have and your time in finding a more appropriate space. NYC Drew

[videoeditor1]

Hey, Given that space, and the assumption that you're trying to attenuate[i]low[/i]frequencies, i'd advise you to NOT develop this room any further, and instead direct your energies in finding a more appropriate (larger) space. Sometimes we think we have little or no options where real estate is concerned. We always have a choice. NYC Drew

[jscoin]

well i just remeasered the room and it is 12' x 12' with a 8' ceiling

[jscoin]

i drew up a plan for my drum room, how can i go about sound proofing the whole room or would it be better to sound proof each individual insturments? here is what i made: [img]http://zipper.5u.com/Drumroom.gif[/img]

[usicMa]

What program did you use to do that drawing? Also, no offense, as it may help your situation, but do you have a choice of certain rooms to develop in? The 2nd measurements are EXTREMELY far from your original posts, and people like to help....but let us know EVERYTHING up front, as far as what rooms you have to choose from. A ceiling height is hard to make a mistake on when 8' is standard. The room size you have, or may have can help us all address your situation more thoroughly. I too am planning a studio, and it's taking a long time....before I post my detailed questions for help though, I want to make sure I can give as much details as possible, because I know some people really take time to help each other out. That new CAD thing is sweet, but do let us know what your options are :) Sorry for the rant, and wish you the best, and hope we can share some tips!

[John Sayers]

usicMa - Smartdraw is a good cheap drawing program. It allows dimensions and scale setting. I use it all the time. You can check out the latest plan I've done using it at: http://www.locall.aunz.com/~johnsay/Stuff/guruland_control.pdf As you will see you can also save in PDF file format as well as export to gif, jpeg etc. It will do Metric or Imperial also. cheers John [ 01-01-2002: Message edited by: John Sayers ]

[jscoin]

i used a free program called home plan pro. that is the room i have now i just moved everything around, and the shelfs that are in the diagram, i found out that i am going to get rid of them for more room...also i have another question...for my pa system where should i put the speakers in the room, and where can i put the mics for NO feedback???

[teh dri]

all you need to soundproof the room is this: -5 egg cartons (the blue ones) -2 egg cartons (yellow ones) -a packet of extra long ladies panty hose -5 empty milk cartons -the hair of one small rodent -3 packets of spearmint chewing gum how you use all that stuff, i dont know. the dude i was asking passed out before he told me that bit. anyway... personally, i see the words PA, small room, mics, drums... three people... i wouldnt bother trying to soundproof. less energy and money might be used by just finding a better space to utilise. you really do have to draw the 'harsh reality' line somewhere

[coolhouse]

[quote]Originally posted by DRiLoad: [b]all you need to soundproof the room is this: -5 egg cartons (the blue ones) -2 egg cartons (yellow ones) -a packet of extra long ladies panty hose -5 empty milk cartons -the hair of one small rodent -3 packets of spearmint chewing gum [/b][/quote] (note) Be certain they're [i]ladies[/i] pantyhose. Gentlemen's will not do. :D later, Mike

[max]

and make sure those ladies are extra long cheers max newcastle, oz

[henrysb3]

Are your wanting practice space or recording space? Some bands here rent one of those storage units (like from a UHaul dealer) on a monthly basis for practice. Your eq. is pretty secure, but the downside is it's usually not heated or cooled. Is this a noise issue with your family or neighbors or both? As previously stated, you have a real challenge.

[henrysb3]

Sorry, @#%^$$%%^ back button/double post syndrome... [ 01-02-2002: Message edited by: henrysb3 ]

[jscoin]

well i really want the room for more practicing rather than recording, the only recording i will prob. do are demos. AND THAT IS THE ONLY ROOM I CAN GET RIGHT NOW, cause i am only 15 and its hard to buy a new house if u know what i mean! and can u tell me more about that u haul idea, and o u know how much it will cost?

[videoeditor1]

[quote]Originally posted by jscoin: [b]well i really want the room for more practicing rather than recording, the only recording i will prob. do are demos. AND THAT IS THE ONLY ROOM I CAN GET RIGHT NOW, cause i am only 15 and its hard to buy a new house if u know what i mean! and can u tell me more about that u haul idea, and o u know how much it will cost?[/b][/quote] Wel geez!!! JS, your age certainly changes things a bit.

[Mats Olsson.]

In a few years, when you've become a seasoned pro, you can tell people "-you know how it all started for me?, at age 15 I was senior member at the expert forums". Way to go mr jscoin! (BTW, what's your name?) /Mats

[Philip OKeefe]

Okay, you age DOES pose a few more issues... first of all, how much modification to your room is your family going to allow? Do they own the hosuse or are you renting it? Any plans on moving any time soon? I've asked a few questions that I absolutely HAVE to have the answers to - either on this thread or one of the "crossposts" you made on the other forums (which, BTW, make it a bit hard to keep track of everything...) Unless I get some answers, I can't really provide you with more specific help. Sorry. I need to know if there's other people in the other rooms who are going to be "noise sensitive. I need to know how close (and cranky) your neighbors are I need to know if you have Interior or exterior doors. (Do they lead to other parts of the house, or outside?) Are the walls made out of BRICK or drywall? This makes a BIG difference in the mass and potential STC of the walls... What are the budgetary constraints? IE How much can you afford to pay for treatment materials? [img]http://www.freakygamers.com/smilies/s2/contrib/navigator/usa.gif[/img] Phil O'Keefe Sound Sanctuary Recording Riverside CA http://www.ssrstudio.com pokeefe777@ssrstudio.com

[jscoin]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by pokeefe777@msn.com: [QB]Okay, you age DOES pose a few more issues... first of all, how much modification to your room is your family going to allow? Do they own the hosuse or are you renting it? Any plans on moving any time soon? I've asked a few questions that I absolutely HAVE to have the answers to - either on this thread or one of the "crossposts" you made on the other forums (which, BTW, make it a bit hard to keep track of everything...) Unless I get some answers, I can't really provide you with more specific help. Sorry. I need to know if there's other people in the other rooms who are going to be "noise sensitive. I need to know how close (and cranky) your neighbors are I need to know if you have Interior or exterior doors. (Do they lead to other parts of the house, or outside?) Are the walls made out of BRICK or drywall? This makes a BIG difference in the mass and potential STC of the walls... What are the budgetary constraints? IE How much can you afford to pay for treatment materials? [\QUOTE] FIRST OFF! my mom doesnt believe me that you guys are real people and professionals (well some of u guys are) and she thinks that you guys could be a bunch of fake people can u write back to this and prove her wrong PLEASE!!!!!! to answer the questions now: the first one: i dont think my mom will be willing to do any construction in the room but adding some foam to the walls will probably be okay. the second one: we have owned this house for 40 years, so yes we own the house the third one: no plans on moving, well at least till i go off to college the fourth one: well my mom is the only one that lives with me and she is pretty cool about it and i think she would like it better if the drums wouldn't "take over" the whole house the fith one: my neighbers house is less than 10 ft. away from my drum room...BUT! they haven't complained yet to me, and i have been playing for almost 2 1/2 years now! the sixth one: the door on the right leads to the hallway and the door on the left leads to a closet witch is also connected to another room. the seventh one: the outer wall is brick and the inner wall is sheetrock(i am about 90% sure its sheetrock) the eighth one: budget wise....i dont know but let me quote my mom, she just said this: "i think it would be easier to build a room out in the back yard" (is this a better way to go?????and would this be cheaper????) ok i answered all your questions i hope u can help me! thanks for all the help so far.... o ya by the way my name is jamie for whoevered asked.

[Philip OKeefe]

Jamie, with all due respect to you and your mom, I may have a difficult time in "proving" to her - and you - my bona fides. It's the nature of forums like these that you can get a lot of different responses from a variety of different users - some pros, some not so pro, so she's absolutely correct about that. Thank you for answering my questions. Now let's see if we can answer some of yours. The first priority before undertaking ANY acoustical treatment job is to assess your needs and analyze what the current conditions are. Unless you know where you want the project to end up at, and where you're starting FROM, you'll never be able to properly design a suitable solution. If your desire is to "soundproof the room", you are, in my educated opinion, facing some very expensive and insurmountable problems... Since it appears likely that your mom will not allow you to undertake any construction within the room, you can totally FORGET ABOUT getting the room "soundproof". Soundproofing requires MASS. You can't hope to attenuate the sound levels of a drumset, two guitar amps and a bass amp with acoustical foam. Foam (and fiberglass baffles) are acoustical absorbers at mid and high frequencies, but will be "transparent" to low frequency sounds, like those coming from your kick drum and the bass amp. These materials are useful for controling the "tone" of the sound within the room but will have negligible effect on the sound that escapes the room. If you wanted to add some foam, it may make the room less "live" in the mid / high frequencies, and therefore more comfortable to play in, but it's not going to make the room "soundproof". I'm sorry, but we can't change the laws of physics. You COULD build a room outside, but IMO, I wouldn't bother... It would cost you a great deal of money. You'd have to pour a slab, run electricity out there, build the walls (as massively as possible), you'd need permits, etc. etc. Not within your budget - trust me on this one. The good news is, you sound like you don't HAVE to! Since your neighbors and mom seem to be pretty understanding, you're in luck. Schedule pratice sessions at times when you're least likely to annoy them - TALK to them, and be willing to work with them. Be nice, and you'll find that they'll probably appreciate it and be willing to work with you. You can do a FEW things to HELP A LITTLE, such as putting up some foam, placing "inserts" into your windows to help reduce leakage out of them (either custom built, or clear "limp mass vinyl" type products), hang heavy curtains over the windows, place seals on the doors (and replace the hollow - most likely hollow core) doors with solid doors, etc, but these will make minor improvements at best, and will by no means "soundproof" your room. I've designed several studios, and have done acoustical consulting for several companies, municipalities and churches. John Sayer has designed and built TONS of studios. I don't know how to "prove" this to you, but I can assure you that it's the truth. So you can take our advice, or reject it as you see fit, but we do know a LITTLE bit about this stuff. ;) If you want to do the research yourself, you can always do a search online. Use keywords like STC, acoustics, and soundproof. You can also check out the article at http://www.auralex.com/ called "acoustics 101" which should give you some easily understandable, third party source, information. Here's a few other links you can check out: http://www.customaudio.freeserve.co.uk/techfrmset.htm http://www.bkla.com/stdiofaq.htm http://www.midiguy.com/MGSoundpf.html [url=http://arts.ucsc.edu/EMS/Music/tech_background/TE-02/AcNumbers/AcNumbers.html]http://arts.ucsc.edu/EMS/Music/tech_background/TE-02/AcNumbers/AcNu mbers.html[/url] http://www.locall.aunz.com/~johnsay/ Best of luck, [img]http://www.freakygamers.com/smilies/s2/contrib/navigator/usa.gif[/img] Phil O'Keefe Sound Sanctuary Recording Riverside CA http://www.ssrstudio.com pokeefe777@ssrstudio.com [ 01-02-2002: Message edited by: pokeefe777@msn.com ]

[usicMa]

I'd ask your mom how much $$$ she'd contribute to the "outside room" Phil is probably correct money wise, [b]but[/b] your mom might be wealthy enough since you haven't mentioned an actual budget....... So I'd ask how much she could contribute. As far as people here not knowing what they are talking about, it'd be best to research the net like Phil said, and buy a book, they'll collaborate. I don't know alot, and am always asking questions, but look for details and prior research I always strive to do first..... These guys know their stuff. The GM Forum...that guy is famous, and he takes time to answer questions.....your Mom might even be a fan of the music he helped construct by Linda Ronstadt.....you never know that could help your cause. For all: This is from some book I have....it gives me hope, because my area I know, won't be all that large: [b]Preferred studio ratios:[/b] Height [list] a 1.0 b 1.0 c 1.0 d 1.0 [/list] Width [list] a 1.14 b 1.28 c 1.5 d 1.8 [/list] Length [list] a 1.39 b 1.54 c 2.4 d 2.1 [/list] The minimum height the book says should be 9 feet......remember a standard room seems to usually be 8ft.. So Situation [b]a[/b]: 9 foot ceiling... 9 * 1.14= 10.26 WIDTH 9 * 1.39= 12.5 LENGTH These are just guidelines.....but they give me hope like I said, because I doubt my working area will be very large itself. According to the guidelines.....if you could raise your celing by cutting off the dry wall, and raising it you could get away with a STUDIO. I don't know how practical this is.....the way I see it from a construction standpoint, it wouldn't be to hard it seems.... slice drywall, leave 2/4's exposed, put new drywall a foot or more higher. .....This is going to make some people laugh......if you are supremely confident, it could be feasible, but if not, it'd definitely be something to avoid.... The book I got this from: [i]Audio in Media The Recording Studio; Stanley R. Alten[/i] They have a new edition, I have an older one....I'd use the SMALL FONT UBB code, but the forums don't seem to support the standard format? [ 01-03-2002: Message edited by: usicMa ]

[lovesinger]

[quote]Originally posted by jscoin: [b]my mom doesnt believe me that you guys are real people and professionals (well some of u guys are) and she thinks that you guys could be a bunch of fake people can u write back to this and prove her wrong PLEASE!!!...i dont think my mom will be willing to do any construction in the room but adding some foam to the walls will probably be okay...no plans on moving, well at least till i go off to college ... well my mom is the only one that lives with me and she is pretty cool about it and i think she would like it better if the drums wouldn't "take over" the whole house....[/b][/quote]MAN, THIS IS [i]PRICELESS[/i]!!! A fiftten year-old this serious about his music!! At ease about approaching "the big dogs" and chatting like a regular! No flames! No four-letter replies! Just creamy cool and clean. "Hey Wally!" I LOVE it !!!! When's the last time we had this kind of freshness and professionalism. I can almost hear, "Gee, THANKS Mean Joe!" coming up. Super feel-good way to start a year!! Let's keep respecting this youngster's wide-eyed enthusiasm and positiveness. I'm getting other vibes, here: jamie, your ace (the best thing available and happening in your situation) is "my mom is the only one that lives with me and she is pretty cool about" ... moms are easy :) ! (just kidding) But your mom really DOES sound cool about it and that's a big plus for any young musician living at home but especially a drummer. (I started out in musical life as one -- my REMO practice pad was a God-send compared to the school drum they'd let me bring home now and then) [quote]Originally posted by jscoin: [b]my neighbers house is less than 10 ft. away from my drum room...BUT! they haven't complained yet to me, and i have been playing for almost 2 1/2 years now! [/b][/quote]You're blessed again, my man! At 15 I lived in a government housing project (not 10 feet but 10 inches separated us from the adjoining neighbors. But we had an ace high school trumpet player who gigged with the local jazz pros living a block away who'd sometimes stand in his doorway and play, with mute or without. It was always a neighborhood serenade that was music to our ears -- nobody complained. A block away the other way was Johnny Shields who'd played with Ray Charles some. Sweet drumming -- no neighbor complaints. You've got it good, big baby. [quote]Originally posted by jscoin: [b]but let me quote my mom, she just said this: "i think it would be easier to build a room out in the back yard" (is this a better way to go?????and would this be cheaper????) [/b][/quote] Bingo! Bingo! and Triple Bingo!!! Sounds like she's virtually committed to finance it for you!! Been out of the remodeling business a decade, but I'd guess an off-the-cuff estimate of a backyard room TWICE as big as the plan you skillfully drew (for elbow room and ambience) at no more than $3,500 "full retail", labor and all, with electricity. With donated family/friends labor (who know what they're doing or are guided by someone who does so it won't fall in on you during a hot solo) and donated or selected quality left-over free-from-construction-site-extra-materials [they calll it "waste" but it ain't...same stuff you'd get from Home Depot and better] you might spend no more than $700 or so, mostly for electrical and quality framing connectors and roofing. A dream backyard practice venue some of us non-teens would appreciate. Add a freeware construction estimator download to your nice Home Plan Pro tool and you'll be able to get a fairly good ballpark cost to give her for the size you want based on prices in your area. Blessings to you, buddy.

[Mats Olsson.]

This thread sure is a role model, lots of mutual respect, very helpful, acurate and inspiring. Kudos to you all! Jamie, please keep up the good work and stay in touch with this forum community. I'll be glad to contribute. /Mats

[teh dri]

[quote]Originally posted by max: [b]and make sure those ladies are extra long cheers max newcastle, oz[/b][/quote] yep. once i accidently used extra short mens pantyhose and.... well... gee i dont know how to word this in fact, i find it hard to talk about urgh, im kinda finding it hard to breathe just thinking about it ahhh no... not again... ITS ALL COMING BACK TO ME!!!!!!!! DONT USE MENS EXTRA SHORT PANTYHOSE! WHATEVER YOU DO... DONT USE MENS EXTRA SHORT PANTHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSEEEEEEE! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!

[miroslav]

[quote]Originally posted by jscoin: [b]...my mom doesn't believe me that you guys are real people and professionals...[/b][/quote] HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! :D :D :D :D I've had this problem my entire life...everyone, but especially my Mom, always thought music was just a lot of "fun and games". A few years back my Mom even got me a little sign that reads "I Refuse To Grow Up" to hang in my studio. I display it proudly…and I always tell her that I'm too old to grow up! ;) OK...back to the soundproofing issue. Phil is right that you may not need to soundproof anything if your Mom and neighbors understand like you say. But...if you are mostly concerned about your neighbors...maybe you can do something on the OUTSIDE of the house...JUST where your room wall faces the neighbor's house. It won't be pretty, and it won't be 100% dead...but maybe some kind of an insulating layer, covering the outside wall of your room. Basic 2x4 or 2x6 "box", with foam insulation, plywood and some waterproofing layer. Placed up against the outside wall, it could make a noticeable difference. It could be something that is removed fairly easily if things ever change...without damaging the existing exterior walls. It will cost only a "few bucks", and a decent carpenter could probably knock it out in one day. Just another thought...

[videoeditor1]

~snip~ [ 01-03-2002: Message edited by: NYC Drew ]

[jscoin]

[quote]Originally posted by lovesinger: [b] Bingo! Bingo! and Triple Bingo!!! Sounds like she's virtually committed to finance it for you!! Been out of the remodeling business a decade, but I'd guess an off-the-cuff estimate of a backyard room TWICE as big as the plan you skillfully drew (for elbow room and ambience) at no more than $3,500 "full retail", labor and all, with electricity. With donated family/friends labor (who know what they're doing or are guided by someone who does so it won't fall in on you during a hot solo) and donated or selected quality left-over free-from-construction-site-extra-materials [they calll it "waste" but it ain't...same stuff you'd get from Home Depot and better] you might spend no more than $700 or so, mostly for electrical and quality framing connectors and roofing. A dream backyard practice venue some of us non-teens would appreciate. Add a freeware construction estimator download to your nice Home Plan Pro tool and you'll be able to get a fairly good ballpark cost to give her for the size you want based on prices in your area. Blessings to you, buddy.[/b][/quote] UMM...my back yard is not that big to accomidate 2x the size of a square room maybe longer room but i doubt it can be more than 12' wide i dont really know how big my mom i will go with size....but i am sure i can have a higher roof....i am going to include what my room looks like now ( i have a keyboard in the middle of the room but it isnt always there)... and lovesinger do u know of a program that (is free) that well estimate the costs??? [img]http://zipper.5u.com/room0.gif[/img] [img]http://zipper.5u.com/room1.gif[/img] [img]http://zipper.5u.com/room2.gif[/img] this is what it looks like right now........ so well thanks for all the help so far, u guys have been a big help!

[jscoin]

i forgot the other 2, so now u can match the room's to the diagrams [img]http://zipper.5u.com/room1.gif[/img][img]http://zipper.5u.com/room2.gif[/img]

[jscoin]

sorry about putting them on twice because i thought it didnt work the 1st time