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OT (?): Microphones for live recording


Rusty Mike
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Starting to do some research on microphones. I'm interested in buying a pair to do some live recording of my various bands. I'm a complete neophyte on this topic, but I'm starting to do some homework.

 

I currently use a Zoom H2, which is great for the price, but limited. I also have a Zoom R16, and thought a decent pair of microphones would, in theory, catch a better recording than the H2. I play in a few big bands, a five piece fusion group and some small jazz combos. None of these use a central PA or single mixing board, and there are no plans to change that.

 

That being said, I'm thinking about getting a pair of mics that can cleanly capture the sound in the room. The small research I've done so far seems to indicate that I should look at small diaphragm mics, as they seem to capture full frequencies better over a distance compared to large diaphragm mics. I get the impression that the large diaphragm mics tend to roll off bass frequencies faster as the sound source moves away from them, which is what makes them ideal for vocals. I know they require phantom power.

 

They may be used at some point in the future for studio or close up recording.

 

I'm looking to keep the cost under $250 for a pair, as this is just a hobby. I've done a bit of research on the following models:

- Rode M5

- MXL V67N

- AKB Perception 170

 

But honestly, I'm not educated enough yet to determine a significant difference, plus I don't know about hidden gems. I'm tempted to call Sweetwater and see if I can talk to a product expert, but thought I'd try to get some impressions here first.

 

Any thoughts or experiences worth sharing? Am I starting with the right perspective?

.

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Here are a couple of considerations.

 

What stereo recording technique are you considering, X/Y, M/S, ORTF, NOS, spaced pair? Maybe a Jecklin disk or dummy head?

 

All those microphones use +48V phantom power. The H2 won't provide it so AFAIK you'd need to use the R16 (ch5/6?).

 

I have wanted to use the Superlux S502 ORTF stereo microphone ($200) for live recording. Alas, the S502 needs 48V phantom power which my Edirol R09 cannot provide. So, I have ended up using the built in microphones. Meh.

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Haven't priced them and too lazy to search (sorry Sven) but does Shure SM81 meet the budget? That's the small diaphragm mic I've used the most. Not necessarily exceptional but seemingly flat and a workhorse.

Dan

 

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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I'd suggest that your results will be less dependent upon the microphone (and upstream gear) you select and more upon careful placement of band and amplifiers - and of course their ability to bring their best knowing the red light is on.

 

The esteemed John Cuniberti has a vid series on this:

 

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGQDixBKOy2ZqIXABrAD__g

 

 

..
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Stereo mics when starting out can help in the sense that they are easy to get great stereo imaging, little or no phase issues. Rode makes a good one (NT4 I believe it is).

 

Ribbon mics are also pretty cool. Although they are often "darker" sounding than condenser mics, they can sound less digital in the end, especially on drums and horns. In other words, you won't as easily get the initial "wow" factor in how accurate a ribbon mic sounds compared to a condenser, but they sound smoother, thus with proper EQing you will want to turn the recorded music up more and enjoy it (rather than freaking out how "cold and digital" it sounds every time there is a cymbal crash).

 

The same occurs even more so with dynamic mics, but I wouldn't recommend recording with only a stereo pair of dynamic mics.

 

 

Another thing to think about is adding some more mics/direct lines as you record into your Zoom R16. I.e., simply capture each vocal/bass/guitar/keys with a direct box channeled to your R16. You can do that pretty fast since you are not using mics (i.e., you don't have to worry about mic placement). That gives you an option in your final mix to turn things up and down with your stereo pair if needed (reamping the DI guitar/bass back through an amp for recording, or through some amp emulator software). If you go to that effort, you should probably also throw up a third mic on the drums, as you can't really have a great sounding recording with crappy sounding or inaudible drums (damn drummers win again).

 

Some people really like boundary mics for live recordings (those weird looking flat things you can lay on the ground or put on a wall), but I don't have much experience using those for live music recording, but have found they work great for children's theater.

 

PS - I'm not expert, the above is simply based on about 10 years of a home recording kick (which only recently has begun to taper off as I've gotten back into quite a bit more live playing).

 

EDIT: PSS - just noticed the others responses.

 

What Tim says is probably way more important than what I wrote - mic placement is really the key, and that unfortunately takes some thinking and experience, which I do not claim to have mastered. Also as elseif notes, check the phantom power requirements, I can't remember if the R16 is 24 or 48 volts. Some of the Rode mics actually can use an internal battery for power (like the NT3), not sure about the Rode mic you mentioned. Ribbon mics do NOT want phantom power, but they do need quite a bit of clean gain for quiet sources (although the things you are trying to record do not sound particularly quiet).

 

TapeOp magazine is a good place to ask similar questions, some very knowledgeable people there.

 

https://messageboard.tapeop.com/

 

 

 

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Here are a couple of considerations.

 

What stereo recording technique are you considering, X/Y, M/S, ORTF, NOS, spaced pair? Maybe a Jecklin disk or dummy head?

 

All those microphones use +48V phantom power. The H2 won't provide it so AFAIK you'd need to use the R16 (ch5/6?).

 

I have wanted to use the Superlux S502 ORTF stereo microphone ($200) for live recording. Alas, the S502 needs 48V phantom power which my Edirol R09 cannot provide. So, I have ended up using the built in microphones. Meh.

 

X/Y is my thinking. The H2 wont supply 48V, but the R16 certainly will on channels 5/6.

.

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Mike - I don't think you mentioned what your intended purpose for recording your bands was going to be. Would be curious to know this, as I think my thoughts (and others) would be helped by knowing the end use.

 

That being said, I'm sure you already know this but I'll just say it anyway.

 

You can spend a boatload of money on really, really nice gear for this purpose. I just finished one of the Cuniberti vids I suggested, where he's using a AEA ribbon mic with a Millenia preamp. Which is like $4K to $6K worth of gear. I'm sure the sonic quality is excellent, and Cuniberti knows how to arrange the sound sources to maximize the mic pattern, relative volumes, etc.

 

But you already know the real spirit is in the band and music. In my experience, the hardest thing to do is get the band to play well with fire and verve and passion with the red light on when you can't punch in and fix it later.

 

I'm curious if using the gear you've already got, if your various bands are generating awesome, spirited recordings even with the limitations of the H2.

 

Like I said, you already know all this.

 

just my 0.02

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Thanks for the responses so far.

 

Tim, thanks for the link to the video. Ill definitely check it out.

 

One of the things Im trying to capture and play back are band dynamics, particularly for the fusion band. In the rehearsals leading up to our last gig, the drummer was preaching volume control and dynamics big time, and then goes into full blown caveman mode during the gig. Drums are all you hear in the recording. Im sure placement of the recorder had something to do with it, which is partly why I want to span out the microphones and try an X/Y pattern. But maybe I also want to prove a point.

 

Roy, its possible for the bass player and I to record direct. Id have to put a mic on the guitar amp and tap the sax players system. The drummer has a pair of Rode NT5s that we can use for his set as well. The downside is the amount of time it will take to set that up and test it. It may be worth the time.

 

The R16 can do 8 tracks simultaneously. Two channels each for keys and drums, one each for bass, guitar and sax would me one track to capture the room.

 

It also depends on the objective of the recording. Like I mentioned above, we need to hone our live mix, and recording the room will capture that. Going close/direct will capture the best of the sources, but wont tell us how we sound to the room.

 

I do want to capture the energy of the live performance. And we do use the recordings to critique ourselves. One annoyance about the H2 is the hollowness in every recording. I dont know if better mics would change that thought.

 

Tim, I do get your points. Thats why Im not going for my lungs on the mics. I want good, but not world class. The most important part is making good music. I want the recordings to help us achieve that. If we can capture something worth sharing, its a bonus.

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I record live with a fairly simple setup.

Sony HDR-CX560 camcorder with a stereo input (red).

Rode NT4 plugged into the camera (stereo X/Y), sits on a boom mic stand. I raise the stand above the crowd to get less people talking.

The camera is on a tripod. I start the camera before we go on and it records the entire set.

 

Check this thread here to see my latest videos by Solid Brass and Celebrate, page 96.

https://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/1043598/96

 

On our latest video, I recorded the entire concert, rendered all of it, uploaded to YouTube (unlisted), and the band watched it looking for mistakes.

 

It's almost impossible to record from a board at a live gig because the bass player and drums (kick) will be too loud. They are barely in the PA mix.

 

We recorded a studio video at DC Rehearsal in WPB, it costed us $700 and has great sound. They had 4 cameras, all instruments were miced, and the board was in another room. The first video from me on page 96 is the studio recording.

 

The live videos I record are good using the Rode NT4. I increase the bass and treble in Sony Vegas, gives a full sound.

 

I bought my Rode NT4 used for $300, then bought new caps for it from Front End Audio. Make sure the camcorder you buy has a stereo input (red) and has an option to reduce the input level for loud recordings. The Sony models have this, makes it so the mic can't be over driven and distort.

 

A set up like this will cost you 1k, but then you'll be able to record videos for years. I've made a ton of videos and everyone compliments me on the quality. It's a 2nd hobby.

 

At all of our gigs, we have a sound man. If we bring sound, then we have a hired sound man who sets everything up and mixes the show with a tablet standing in the crowd. If sound is provided, it's the same thing, they always have someone standing in the crowd with a tablet. That would answer the question about how you sound in FOH.

 

I always wear ear plugs on stage and point my speaker (JBL Eon) up at my head so I can hear it. Usually at the gigs I have no idea what it sounds like in the crowd, but everyone says the mix is great and the recordings turn out pretty good.

Korg 01W/FD, Hammond XK-2, Neo Ventilator2, JBL Eon, Rhodes 88
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A couple of thing to watch out for are mechanical noises (stamping feet making it through the mic stand fo instance) and what the mics/preamps/ADconvs are going to make the most audible artifacts in the sound, which depends on the type of amping (digital ?) and PA system (serious full range or plastic portable for instance). Also, if it's an acoustic-like jazz performance, noise of the mics and preamps as well as the ability to rule out audience disturbance. Finally, some mics sound smooth and nice but kill almost every processing of the live recording, or require a specific monitoring setup to be appreciated (not neutral sounding). Also, a digital recording always has some issues with the imperfections of the DAC, which is what a lot of people unknowingly spent a lot of time on.

 

T

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Thanks everyone for the links and info.

 

Tim, the Cuniberti videos are amazing. There are three aspects about them, however, that I don't think I'll ever achieve: a very high-end mic, a very controlled environment, and skilled people who know what they're doing. I want to go through them, however, as I think they say a lot about how good musicians listen to and respect one another.

 

It still seems to me that the small diaphragm condenser mics are the better option. The sax player owns a bunch of SM57's and SM58's so we could always do a side by side comparison.

.

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....The R16 can do 8 tracks simultaneously. Two channels each for keys and drums, one each for bass, guitar and sax would me one track to capture the room....

 

When you say 2 for the drums, are you thinking 1 overhead mic and 1 mic on the kick? You will get some kick in the overheads (enough to think about phase cancellation for the kick drum, between the kick mic and overhead mics), but not enough to satisfy you.

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....It still seems to me that the small diaphragm condenser mics are the better option. The sax player owns a bunch of SM57's and SM58's so we could always do a side by side comparison.

 

I recommend some sort of condenser mics for any recording where the mics will be some distance away from the sound source. This includes any drum overhead mics. Mics that are close to the sound source, such as a mic on the kick drum, can be a dynamic mic, such as the SM57 or SM58 you mention above.

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Tim, the Cuniberti videos are amazing. There are three aspects about them, however, that I don't think I'll ever achieve: a very high-end mic, a very controlled environment, and skilled people who know what they're doing. I want to go through them, however, as I think they say a lot about how good musicians listen to and respect one another.

 

Mike, I'm so glad I was able to pass along something that was useful to you.

 

And I think Cuniberti's vids have a wealth of knowledge and "process" wisdom to benefit anyone who is thinking of recording their stuff.

 

..
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Check out the Zoom Q4n for an all in one solution. We recorded a practice with it and I was amazed at the sound quality -- so much better than the camcorder I was using.

Yamaha YC-73, Roland Fantom 7, Korg Kronos 2-73, Roland RD-2000, Nord Stage 3 Compact, Hammond SK-Pro 73, Mainstage w/ Arturia Keylab 61 mkii, Yamaha U1 Upright

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I forgot to mention one of the main obvious things when recording a cool (presumable amplified) performance: to capture all that sound coming from the stage, and also distinguishing that wonderful feel of the "live" ambiance, you need microphones that can handle the sound pressure at hand without too much distortion. Because when someone plays back the performance, at a different volume, there are different sensitivities to the present frequency and amplitude distortions. Like a lot of (small) microphones will not be very usable as "kick drum" mikes, a live setup with mikes close to big speakers will sound horrible with every high sound pressure wave coming at them. I know Zoom can be alright, but I know little mikes enough to know the difference between studio and live mikes that are specified to handle Rock SPL level without too much distortion. That has effect on sampling the signal and later on encoding it as band mp3 or something as well.

 

T.

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....The R16 can do 8 tracks simultaneously. Two channels each for keys and drums, one each for bass, guitar and sax would me one track to capture the room....

 

When you say 2 for the drums, are you thinking 1 overhead mic and 1 mic on the kick? You will get some kick in the overheads (enough to think about phase cancellation for the kick drum, between the kick mic and overhead mics), but not enough to satisfy you.

 

We played a party at the Sax player's house this past Saturday and recorded it with more of a close mic approach. I'm still in the process of mixing and mastering, but it worked out really well.

 

Throughout the evening, we were talking about approaches to recording. It seems a 3-mic approach would work better for the drums. The drummer owns a pair of Rode NT5's and a bass drum mic. The bass player was talking about the engineer who recorded the Who and other big rock bands, and how they set up the mics for the drums in a triangle pattern. It seems the drums will record better with 3 mics instead of 2.

 

Seems I can get a better recording of the fusion band with close microphones, and 8 channels will cover it. Keys go direct in stereo, bass goes direct, I can tap off the Sax's system, SM57 on the guitar amp, and the drummer's 3 mics.

 

This is all a learning process, and a hobby. The recordings are for our own analysis and posterity. The journey is part of the fun.

.

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Tim, the Cuniberti videos are amazing. There are three aspects about them, however, that I don't think I'll ever achieve: a very high-end mic, a very controlled environment, and skilled people who know what they're doing. I want to go through them, however, as I think they say a lot about how good musicians listen to and respect one another.

 

Mike, I'm so glad I was able to pass along something that was useful to you.

 

And I think Cuniberti's vids have a wealth of knowledge and "process" wisdom to benefit anyone who is thinking of recording their stuff.

 

Tim, they are incredible videos. I had a chance to start looking through them. I am really taken by the interaction among the musicians themselves, and how they respect each other's space. I sent a link to my band mates, and want to start emulating some of those behaviors. The end results is some seriously great music.

 

Thanks so much for sharing!

.

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Check out the Zoom Q4n for an all in one solution. We recorded a practice with it and I was amazed at the sound quality -- so much better than the camcorder I was using.

 

I'm less interested in video at this point. We're not really looking to market ourselves. Plus we're a bunch of old guys - we can do without the visuals :laugh:

 

I thought about the H5, but I'm not sure it gives me anything over the R16.

.

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I forgot to mention one of the main obvious things when recording a cool (presumable amplified) performance: to capture all that sound coming from the stage, and also distinguishing that wonderful feel of the "live" ambiance, you need microphones that can handle the sound pressure at hand without too much distortion. Because when someone plays back the performance, at a different volume, there are different sensitivities to the present frequency and amplitude distortions. Like a lot of (small) microphones will not be very usable as "kick drum" mikes, a live setup with mikes close to big speakers will sound horrible with every high sound pressure wave coming at them. I know Zoom can be alright, but I know little mikes enough to know the difference between studio and live mikes that are specified to handle Rock SPL level without too much distortion. That has effect on sampling the signal and later on encoding it as band mp3 or something as well.

 

T.

 

Theo that actually goes back to some of my original questions about recording a live band and microphone selection. I'm not experienced enough to understand how to record a room and capture an accurate and clean take.

 

Based on discussions with the fusion band this weekend, we may be moving toward a more direct/close mic approach. So now I'm not sure when I'll be purchasing anything, as we seem to have decent enough tools for that.

 

As far as recording the big bands, that's kind of a secondary thing at the moment. I still may pick up a pair of condenser mics to experiment with. Both big bands rehearse in a box formation, so a two mic approach won't capture things accurately. I'd have to wait for a gig when we're all facing forward.

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I have a Zoom H6. IMO the scourge of a gig recording is audience noise. I tried an experiment at a recent jazz trio gig where I set up the Zoom's onboard stereo mic to record just the drums. It's X/Y capsule has two coverage angle settings so I set it to the narrower (90° vs 120°) and pointed it straight down on the drums. The bassist had a direct out from his amp and I used a DI box on my stereo keys, so we connected directly to the Zoom's XLR inputs. Below is a link to a very short excerpt of a tune. Of course I did some post-processing, because I could.

 

I would say that these recorders' built-in mics are "OK"... nothing spectacular. I had higher hopes for the H6 since it's their flagship (or was, I'm not sure now). Having said that, I'm satisfied with the results since audience noise is almost zero. Of course, being a jazz gig there wasn't much of one anyway :) but this restaurant has a very loud bar area.

 

My takeaway is that a really nice stereo mic would be a better option, but one that's gonna have a wide enough angle to get the whole band, without the dreaded audience noise, may be tough. The direct inputs on these higher end recorders are a help.

 

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Talk about a teaser ! Man Rob, more on DD ! :thu:

 

I've used my DPA 4011s on live recording to pretty good results but it's been hit and miss. It's largely about placement and room acoustics. I'm not an engineer but everyone one of them that I've asked for advice recommends the small condenser mics.

 

For just setting something up being very simple, with great results and almost dummy proof, this is considered the best, albeit very expensive.

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/MSTC64g--schoeps-ortf-stereo-microphone-mstc-64-u?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI1ayiw9fa2QIVRC-BCh0VYAjCEAAYASAAEgJMxvD_BwE

https://soundcloud.com/dave-ferris

 

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....We played a party at the Sax player's house this past Saturday and recorded it with more of a close mic approach. I'm still in the process of mixing and mastering, but it worked out really well....

 

I have been recording our covers band live on a multitrack recorder since 2008. Some suggestions for you: (1) make sure the two overheads are equidistant from the snare. (2) If you can hear the kick in the overheads, the kick noise will be coming out the back of the bass drum. Reverse the phase of the track containing the kick, and delay the kick track by about 3 or 4 thousands of a second. Sound travels about 1 foot per thousandth of a second, so the kick sound reaches your kick mic first. (Your kick mic will probably pick up almost nothing except the kick sound itself). These two changes can make a kick that was disappearing in your mix get found again. A compressor on the kick can help too. (3) for any vocals, use some compression, and apply that compression before any reverb. (4) sax can also benefit from reverb. If you want a bigger/thicker sound for the sax, apply some modest delay (50ms?) before the reverb. (5) see if your mixing package includes some sort of "final effect" or "mastering effect". A warning that some of these "mastering effects" can suck the life out a song that has big dynamic ranges in volume, as some jazz songs do.

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I have been recording our covers band live on a multitrack recorder since 2008. Some suggestions for you: (1) make sure the two overheads are equidistant from the snare. (2) If you can hear the kick in the overheads, the kick noise will be coming out the back of the bass drum. Reverse the phase of the track containing the kick, and delay the kick track by about 3 or 4 thousands of a second. Sound travels about 1 foot per thousandth of a second, so the kick sound reaches your kick mic first. (Your kick mic will probably pick up almost nothing except the kick sound itself). These two changes can make a kick that was disappearing in your mix get found again. A compressor on the kick can help too.

I did mess up in that the OH gain was way too low and the mic barely picked up anything. The other mics in the room got all the ambience of the drums. It seems properly mic'ing the drums is an art/science unto itself. Thanks for the advice.

 

(3) for any vocals, use some compression, and apply that compression before any reverb.

No vocalizing in this group. One less headache.

 

(4) sax can also benefit from reverb. If you want a bigger/thicker sound for the sax, apply some modest delay (50ms?) before the reverb.

Can I do that post recording? I don't want to mess with his live sound, and want to keep things subtle in the recording.

 

(5) see if your mixing package includes some sort of "final effect" or "mastering effect". A warning that some of these "mastering effects" can suck the life out a song that has big dynamic ranges in volume, as some jazz songs do.

I use either Garage Band, Audacity or Cubase Elements 8 for this stuff, including mastering. It's usually a touch of sonic enhancement, a touch or reverb to put us all in the same "room" and possibly some final itty bitty compression. I prefer an overall vintage sound and don't like things too glossy, so I try to keep the sparkle to a minimum.

 

I sincerely appreciate the input.

.

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...I did mess up in that the OH gain was way too low and the mic barely picked up anything. The other mics in the room got all the ambience of the drums.....

 

I had that problem in a big way for the first few gigs I recorded. Even now, I do not capture enough volume from the overheads to satisfy me. Since I am capturing 12 or 14 tracks at once, I choose to capture in 16-bit, which means I also mix in 16-bit. So I don't want to push down the volume of all the other tracks, and I can boost the tracks for the drum overheads only so far before I reach "per-track" clipping during mixing. So I make a duplicate pair of tracks of the drum overheads during my post-mixing. Sometimes I make a 3rd duplicate pair. You can also use a flat EQ boost to increase the volume for any track, if you are nowhere close to "per track" clipping for your drum overhead tracks. Any modern mixing software under Windows or Mac should be able to do these things. (I mix on my Korg D3200, because it's where I capture the 12/14 tracks, and it allows me to do these things, and it is less flexible than the modern mixing software packages on Windows and Mac).

 

Which reminds me of a suggestion on checking for the proper volume balance: For pop/rock songs which include vocals, the advice is to turn down the master volume while listening to your mix. The lead vocal and snare drum should be the last sounds to disappear, since they are so important. You'll have to decide which track in your non-vocal mixes would take the place of the vocal track if using this suggestion. In general, turning the volume way down of the master mix while listening to it is a good way to quickly get feedback on whether the balance is correct. Listening to a master mix at loud volumes can allow a track which is too soft to be heard just enough, such that you will not realize your track balance is off.

 

Also listen to your mix in a car stereo, because they tend to be "off" in some way. A good mix should sound good on imperfect equipment.

 

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...(4) sax can also benefit from reverb. If you want a bigger/thicker sound for the sax, apply some modest delay (50ms?) before the reverb...

 

Can I do that post recording? I don't want to mess with his live sound, and want to keep things subtle in the recording.

 

Yes you can do this during the post-recording mixing process. In fact from a mixing perspective, it is best if your live "capture" is dry, because if you include an effect on a track during the capture, you can't undo it.

 

I don't know what Garage Band and Audacity can do, but based on skimming a youtube video which introduces Cubase 8, it looks like it can do this.

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I have a pair or Rode NT3, and I cant say enough good things about them. May be more than you want to spend, but theyre excellent for vocals or instruments. Either phantom powered or slip in a 9 volt battery for non-phantom.

The fact there's a Highway To Hell and only a Stairway To Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic numbers

 

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