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Red carnage


Aidan

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Well, first gig with Rebecca last night and what do you know, the Red Thing sounded awesome.

 

One of the reasons I'm on this tour is that Rick, her regular keys man, is playing with Magnum, the main attraction. He made a point of coming to me after our brief soundcheck and telling me the Nord sounded great out front. He also came up to me after the show and told me that not only did the Electro sound great, I did a great job too. That meant a lot to me.

 

The sound guy asked me to run (and monitor) in stereo and both Rick and myself came to the conclusion that this is what's making the difference for me. On the one gig I was previously happy with the sound, I took stereo into my IEMs even though I sent out a summed mono output to the PA (pub gig with very basic mixer).

 

So it looks like the Nord is staying, and I didn't just waste a boatload of money. Phew!

 

 

Glad to hear this, Aidan!

 

So (for those of us who've hung around this place for awhile) you could say, "Stereo to Mono is for Semi-Pros?" :laugh:

 

 

 

 

____________________________________
Rod

Here for the gear.

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Well, first gig with Rebecca last night and what do you know, the Red Thing sounded awesome.

 

One of the reasons I'm on this tour is that Rick, her regular keys man, is playing with Magnum, the main attraction. He made a point of coming to me after our brief soundcheck and telling me the Nord sounded great out front. He also came up to me after the show and told me that not only did the Electro sound great, I did a great job too. That meant a lot to me.

 

The sound guy asked me to run (and monitor) in stereo and both Rick and myself came to the conclusion that this is what's making the difference for me. On the one gig I was previously happy with the sound, I took stereo into my IEMs even though I sent out a summed mono output to the PA (pub gig with very basic mixer).

 

So it looks like the Nord is staying, and I didn't just waste a boatload of money. Phew!

 

 

Glad to hear this, Aidan!

 

So (for those of us who've hung around this place for awhile) you could say, "Stereo to Mono is for Semi-Pros?" :laugh:

 

 

 

 

Great that you had a real keyboard player out in the audience providing honest feedback. That doesn't happen so often in my world.

Want to make your band better?  Check out "A Guide To Starting (Or Improving!) Your Own Local Band"

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Not adding anything new to this, but tonight's gig reminded me of this thread.

 

Was playing 2nd keys for a band, using the FA-06. I had a floor monitor while most of the other band members were running in ears (not enough packs for the whole band, getting more next time). I'm just playing auxiliary keys parts, pads, textures, samples, so no biggy. A wedge is fine.

 

Anyways, keyboard player beside me is playing an Electro 5. Her piano in my monitor sounds like ass. F%$king terrible. Painfully bad. Made her playing sound rubbish, but she's a great player.

 

Just heard a mix back from the desk. The piano sounds outstanding, even in mono. Every nuance captured, so full and warm. Her playing sounded so expressive and rich. FOH sounded very similar.

 

Again, not news to anyone. Nords generally sound fantastic, but through a bad monitor they're worse than the worst ROMpler.

Hammond SKX

Mainstage 3

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Again, not news to anyone. Nords generally sound fantastic, but through a bad monitor they're worse than the worst ROMpler.

I've heard this a lot, and in thinking about why this might be, here's a theory: I think Nords tend to have more midrange content than a lot of other pianos, which often seem slightly scooped in the mids. Possibly the most common flaw of a poor speaker is a forward midrange (i.e. some amount of honkiness). Couple those two scenarios, and it makes sense that a scooped-mid piano won't sound as bad through one of these speakers as will one that has more mid presence. Maybe?

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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Yes, sort of. The one thing I've noticed about my Nords is that they do a good job of reproducing the real deal. To the extent that the real deal emphasizes the mids (grands, EPs, etc.) that is what you're presented.

 

For example, there's this amazing Bosie sample with the Nords. No, it doesn't match my home Bosie, but decent enough.

 

I prefer this far more than pre-sculpted sounds on my behalf.

 

Now playing through IEMs, totally amazing.

Want to make your band better?  Check out "A Guide To Starting (Or Improving!) Your Own Local Band"

 

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I had a similar experience. Like you, Id come from a Hammond SK (1 then 2). Looking for a board like the SK1 but with much better pianos. Bought an Electro 5D. I hadnt previously cared for Nords idea of what a Hammond sounded like, but I tried it in the store and enjoyed it well enough with the updated Leslie sim. But out on the gig Id pull a drawbar and find myself thinking WTF, really? After a couple of gigs I sold it. Red is apparently just not my colour. Like a few others here I did find the Black Upright worked well enough for pianos, but I was playing blues and some soul material, so ymmv.

 

Good to hear that 1. you solved the issue for your purposes and 2. You have a sound guy sympathetic to running you in stereo.

Gig keys: Hammond SKpro, Korg Vox Continental, Crumar Mojo 61, Crumar Mojo Pedals

 

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Brotha Aidan, I'm glad Red worked out for you in the long run. :thu:

 

However, I'm not a fan of hearing that a $3k "sounds like ass" through certain types of amplification but wonderful out in the house and on recordings.

 

Granted, if the sh8tty sound coming through the monitor does not adversely affect the KB player, no harm, no foul. But, nobody should have to endure that with modern technology.

 

D8mn it, our KBs should sound great on stage, out in the house and recorded. :D:cool:

PD

 

"The greatest thing you'll ever learn, is just to love and be loved in return."--E. Ahbez "Nature Boy"

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+1 Prof, I don't get this idea that as long as it sounds good out front, it's ok for it to sound like shit to US, the ones trying to create music on it. The ones paying for it, shlepping it, practicing on it, extolling the virtues of the incredible samples, etc... get to the gig and "well it sounded great out front!" Maybe a psychologist can explain.
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I think some of it is buyer's defense - if you spend a ton of cheddar you want to feel your expense was justified. Consider how we feel if I modify Prof's sentence:

 

"However, I'm not a fan of hearing that a Guitar Center Williams DP "sounds like ass" through certain types of amplification but wonderful out in the house and on recordings.

 

Granted, if the sh8tty sound coming through the monitor does not adversely affect the KB player, no harm, no foul. But, nobody should have to endure that with modern technology."

 

 

..
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Again, not news to anyone. Nords generally sound fantastic, but through a bad monitor they're worse than the worst ROMpler.

I've heard this a lot, and in thinking about why this might be, here's a theory: I think Nords tend to have more midrange content than a lot of other pianos, which often seem slightly scooped in the mids. Possibly the most common flaw of a poor speaker is a forward midrange (i.e. some amount of honkiness). Couple those two scenarios, and it makes sense that a scooped-mid piano won't sound as bad through one of these speakers as will one that has more mid presence. Maybe?

 

I think it does have a lot to do with the mid-range content of Nord pianos. There's also the difference presented by a less deep triggering point than most other DPs; and that's something Scott mentioned in a related thread. Between the two, Nord piano Programs tend to be very forward sounding; I've compared it to meeting someone who has an eager, almost pushy, handshake. Considering the quality and detail Nord puts into their samples and Programs, it's understandable how good they can sound FOH. But it's also easy to see how punchy and honk-ish the sound can be through a smaller, close-in monitor - especially one of low to average quality.

 

With my NS3,76, the bright setting in the piano EQ can help, though often it's too much. And I hadn't quite arrived at a dynamic depth and EQ shading that felt like 'home', even when switching between Silver Grand and Royal 3D - w/piano EQ set to either bright or flat; though all those variations are playable, and sound solid, overall. But I did discover a Sample / EQ combination recently that works well in several styles and mixes: Imperial Grand XL, using only the final 3-band EQ and reverb to taste. I set the Low and High straight up, Mid cut around 450 Hz and set at -3 to -5 dB. There's something about that Imperial Grand XL's touch; a more subtle velocity trigger, more layers, perhaps ? Whatever the case, it's becoming my go-to when using the Stage 3 for piano.

'Someday, we'll look back on these days and laugh; likely a maniacal laugh from our padded cells, but a laugh nonetheless' - Mr. Boffo.

 

We need a barfing cat emoticon!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Brotha Aidan, I'm glad Red worked out for you in the long run. :thu:

 

However, I'm not a fan of hearing that a $3k "sounds like ass" through certain types of amplification but wonderful out in the house and on recordings.

+1 Prof, I don't get this idea that as long as it sounds good out front, it's ok for it to sound like shit to US

I don't think Aidan ever said that. In the end, he got it sounding good both out in the house and for himself.

 

 

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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The sound guy asked me to run (and monitor) in stereo and both Rick and myself came to the conclusion that this is what's making the difference for me. On the one gig I was previously happy with the sound, I took stereo into my IEMs even though I sent out a summed mono output to the PA (pub gig with very basic mixer).

 

This was a bit of my struggle with my NP over the years as well. It sounded great on studio monitors, headphones and IEM's, but for some reason I was never comfortable using it with a stage speaker. The only one it ever played nice with was the Behringer B208D, go figure. All the others made it sound harsh and unpleasant.

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Brotha Aidan, I'm glad Red worked out for you in the long run. :thu:

 

However, I'm not a fan of hearing that a $3k "sounds like ass" through certain types of amplification but wonderful out in the house and on recordings.

+1 Prof, I don't get this idea that as long as it sounds good out front, it's ok for it to sound like shit to US

I don't think Aidan ever said that. In the end, he got it sounding good both out in the house and for himself.

 

Scott, it wasn't Aidan who wrote the Nord sounding like a$$ but other posts within the thread suggesting the amplification could be affecting how one hears the sound. :cool:

PD

 

"The greatest thing you'll ever learn, is just to love and be loved in return."--E. Ahbez "Nature Boy"

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I'm a little late to the party, but I've been playing red keyboards for quite a while. Live gigs for me are primarily in mono, and I've found very few of the Nord piano samples that hold up in mono. I use the Silver Grand almost exclusively when playing in mono. For me, its been the best balance of mono compatibility, brightness for "cutting" through a live band, and still maintains some body in the top end without becoming overly bright. I've been quite happy with a range of the other piano samples for stereo recording or live playing in stereo.

 

Also - many times, PA system stage monitors are pre-tuned with outboard equalizers based on the system operator's preferred EQ curve for vocalists. Getting vocals heard on stage to the satisfaction of the artist is often Job #1. Vocal-centric EQ may not be flattering to keyboards compared to a more neutral tuning. This could explain why, in some cases, keyboards sound like a$$ through the stage monitors but great at FOH. Its also why I prefer to carry my own on-stage amplification, and only use PA stage monitors (for keyboard monitoring) as a last resort. This way, I'm always in control of my own sound and I always hear the same sound at every gig.

DISCLAIMER - professionally affiliated with Fulcrum Acoustic www.fulcrum-acoustic.com
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This was a bit of my struggle with my NP over the years as well. It sounded great on studio monitors, headphones and IEM's, but for some reason I was never comfortable using it with a stage speaker. The only one it ever played nice with was the Behringer B208D, go figure. All the others made it sound harsh and unpleasant.

I don't suppose "all the others" were Roland KC amps? ;-)

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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+1 Prof, I don't get this idea that as long as it sounds good out front, it's ok for it to sound like shit to US

I don't think Aidan ever said that. In the end, he got it sounding good both out in the house and for himself.

You're right, he never said that. I was seconding ProfD's post, but it also struck a chord in that I remember a previous thread with this theme - accepting a poor stage sound as long as it sounds good to the audience. I know that's simplifying things but it speaks to a mindset 180 degrees from mine and I was triggered. Gotta go back on my meds.

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Also - many times, PA system stage monitors are pre-tuned with outboard equalizers based on the system operator's preferred EQ curve for vocalists. Getting vocals heard on stage to the satisfaction of the artist is often Job #1. Vocal-centric EQ may not be flattering to keyboards compared to a more neutral tuning. This could explain why, in some cases, keyboards sound like a$$ through the stage monitors but great at FOH. Its also why I prefer to carry my own on-stage amplification, and only use PA stage monitors (for keyboard monitoring) as a last resort. This way, I'm always in control of my own sound and I always hear the same sound at every gig.

 

So true and +1. :thu:

 

I've played through provided stage monitors that were really high end - Meyer, Clair Brothers and other custom configurations - where the piano just didn't have a good tone. But then out front it sounded excellent.

 

Then if I'd use the TT08As, while not being Fulcrums or L'Acoustics 108Ps, the piano sounded better. Maybe not as big sounding but it just had a more smooth, even tone.

 

I'm just very sensitive to tone and anything that has a harsh, sharp or grating character.

 

In my four years with the two different Nord pianos, I had the best results going stereo of course. And the best di/preamps were the Forssell SMP-2A with my Radial Duplex and my JMK Audio JM-110. The Forssell was a grand up from what I paid on the JMK. I didn't hear a grand difference with the RCF TT08As. Maybe I would've with the Fulcrum FA28ACs or L' Acoustic 108Ps.

 

I sold the NP2 before their latest samples came out, so I mainly used the Italian Grand XL for Jazz and the Bright Grand 2 for rock.

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