Anybody Get Sucked into American Idol?

[Greg66666]

As part of the early elimination rounds after they have picked those people that are "going to Hollywood" there is a "write your own song night" where they give the contestants one night to come up with something "original." It's kind of a torture/pressure test for them (and the audience).

 

What I have heard of the stuff that hits the air is really unoriginal. Most of the melodies/tunes are in the, what I call, "nyah, nyah, nyah, nyah, nyah, nyah" school of melodic writing. That playground jumprope kind of melody that so many soul singers and rap singers have driven straight into the ground.

 

And the lyrics are in the currently popular extreme prosaic school of "I'm describing how you're such a jerk and you're breaking my heart and I'm not even going to bother to use any poetic technique in my lyrics, I'm just going to sing to the 4th grade level that my listeners are on" school of lyric writing.

 

It's pretty dismal.

 

But that's just one unfamous nobody lurker's opinion.

 

Originally posted by Anderton:

Now, what would be really interesting is if they had to write their own material...

[Hendmik]

Originally posted by Raymar:

I'm still waiting for American Instrumentalist Idol.

 

Steve

THey already had a show like that on VH1 a few years back. Bands would come in and have to cover whatever tune the judges blurted out and in whatever style they ordered. It was awesome hearing the bands have to change styles at the drop of a hat. Most of them were quite good. I think Paul Schaffer hosted the show with different celebrity judges. I had no idea that there were such great musicians among the non-pros.

[m2]

Originally posted by LawrenceF:

But... he's not the kind of black man young white teenage girls go crazy over. They like the bad boy.He's not the smooth "chick magnet / potential playboy / sex symbol" I was talking about when I made the statement. Neither was Ruben. That's actually good for them in this case.

 

Lawrence

Yeah, but there are no bad boys or girls of any color or background.

[Guitar Geezer]

Haven't fallen into the AI snare yet (must be on opposite one of wifey's "Switching Houses" shows.

Bit I did get sucked into Nashville Star last year (so i got a country music upbringing )

 

At one point they had to perform a song that they wrote themselves .

 

<---reminder to self...check to see when the new Star on? ---->

[Duddits]

Originally posted by Anderton:

<>

 

But I think the point is that all of these people aren't yet fully-formed, and part of the question is who can grow into something. The reason I found George interesting is because of an offhand comment he made about wanting to be a standup comedian. His voice is good by AI standards, yes, but I also think that in the hands of a good producer, he could grow as an overall entertainer, not just a vocalist...not exactly Will Smith, but you get my drift.

 

There probably are hundreds better, but for whatever reason, he's up there in front of a zillion people doing his thing. Basically, I think the dude has talent that could go beyond the confines of being on AI.

I know what you mean about him seeming like an entertainer, and you make a good point that they grow into their roles. That's definately true with Clay Aiken. I thought his performance on SNL, for example, was way better than anything he did on AI, and A&R fed him a pretty good song.

 

However, while I understand that George Huff has wider aspirations than just singing, and thanks to AI, has an opportunity, my impression is that he lacks the charisma, edge, chops, and broader palette of sounds (that are not always perfectly formed notes) of soul singers who become successful recording artists. When I listen to George Huff, he just seems so backup to me, rather than front man. I could see him in the 70s in an ensemble group, snapping his fingers and singing "Dooo-wop, shu-doo-be-doop," but not "Sexual Healing."

 

The key to people like Will Smith, in my opinion, is that they aren't jack of all trades, master of none. Everything Will Smith does is judged against the toughest competition in that field, and he rises to the top in both rap and acting. George Huff just doesn't seem better than the real thing in either music or comedy. He seems too Brady Bunch, both in spirit and execution.

 

Maybe pain and suffering is part of it, maybe a compelling personality and underlying intelligence are also part of it. As a comedian, could you picture him on SNL? Do you get any sense of insight and smarts that you do from Chris Rock? George Huff seems like a nice guy, but doesn't seem to have the extra dimensions that rocket the rare musician or comic to stardom.

[bigswole31]

I must agree...George is definitely one of the best voices on the show, but that geeky, nail biting happy-face crap that he does is more suited for a kids TV show than a pop icon. The guy looks like he would be the first to jump on top of a table if he saw a mouse or someone simply said "BOO!" from behind his back. Too much wuss for me, and it hinders any projection of "star quality".

 

IMHO Fantasia Barrino is by FAR the closest thing to a pop icon on the show. She has chops, attitude, and she her years of singing solos in church have taught her how to "connect' with the audience. I think she should win hands down.

 

As for the other two guys -- they are an absolute joke, and they serve to show why the music industry is in the state that it is. How I long for the day when "He can sing!" far outweighs "He's cute!"

[henryrobinett]

I got over reality TV when my brother in-law was on "Big Brother 3". Getting the inside scoop was fun.

 

I didn't watch one episode of American Idol last year. But my wife and kids corraled me into to it this year. And we've been voting too!

 

I'm surprised only one person has mentioned Fantasia. She's IT as far as I'm concerned. LaToya is also good. George, LaToya and Fantasia are the top three in my book and if anyone else supplants them I think they got rocks in their head.

 

That John Stevens is still there is a joke bordering on psychosis. If there's a case to be made for racism it would be this. But it's not racism. It's that he's young, cute and he just gets the sympathy vote from middle white America because everyone knows he doesn't belong. They must know.

 

I love George's clean vibe which is why he can win. Middle America, the demographic I'd wager my ass on, would like to see a nice, clean cut, safe black man do well. I would too.

 

Which leads me to my hope and hitherto hidden optimisim about the show. It's bringing actual pop music back. You know, melodies? Songs with chords and a traditional structure? These kids aren't really current pop star fodder, because pop music isn't like this any more, by and large. I mean they're singing songs most of these contestants haven't even heard before. But I've grown so tired of songs with the big boom and no bridge and little actual singing. Now perhaps with the built in marketing of these kids, with a public ready made to hear some semblance of what they did on the show, maybe songwriters will start getting some jobs again.

[Lee Tyler]

It's bringing actual pop music back. You know, melodies?

Abso-fucking-loutely! Yowsers!! Thank god! ---Lee

[m2]

Originally posted by henryrobinett:

Now perhaps with the built in marketing of these kids, with a public ready made to hear some semblance of what they did on the show, maybe songwriters will start getting some jobs again.

Judging from the new songs released so far by the various winners and almost winners, I wouldn't get my hopes up if I were you!

 

To me, this show is a "hoot", and not much more, the performers and performances are a hoot, the judges are a hoot, the host...hoot...Clay...hoot...Simon...hoot hoot. A giggle here, a chuckle there. It's a Fox talent show, not a PBS Van Cliburn competition.

[ani]

That's one of my daughter's favorite shows. Every now and then an artist happens to capture my attention to where I will step away from my duties to take a peek; sometimes I end up watching the entire act. Rarely do I ever "follow" the outcome of the act though.... as much of the Pop Music scene, the decisions are based more on popularity and pizzazz than talent. I've never called in, nor have I watched it long enough to know they have a phone in audience line.

[Duddits]

Originally posted by henryrobinett:

I'm surprised only one person has mentioned Fantasia. She's IT as far as I'm concerned.

No question. Fantasia is better than any contestant on the show has ever been, past winners included.

[LawrenceF]

not just a vocalist...not exactly Will Smith, but you get my drift.

 

Everything Will Smith does is judged against the toughest competition in that field, and he rises to the top in both rap and acting.

Are you kidding me? Will is a very good actor but he was never a great rapper. If I remember correctly Will was doing "light" rap while others were going more artistic / poetic things. I mean he was ok and the songs were amusingly entertaining but I think the industry attemted to make a statement about rap by backing his early crossover move to TV. "Here's the reward for being good". It didn't work. No other rap artist imitated him.

 

I've never thought of him as a great artist by any means. Very good actor though. He never touched on any meaningful subjects that I can recall. That's what rap is supposed to be about. Telling stories about society and sub-society in a poetic and meaningful way, directed at a culture that can understand. Imagine Curtis Mayfield as a rapper, what do you think he would have had to say? Plenty.

 

Alas it's digressed into "motherf...I'll put a chalk line around you...etc..etc...etc..."

 

Bottom line, I hate most rap but I understand it and the things that drive the "art" behind it. He couldn't hold a candle to the "toughest competiton". Will's a performer (Janet Jackson? big stage show, wow factor, Vegas...) not an artist (Tupac Shakur? content, meaning, artistry...).

 

Lawrence

[jonboy]

I hardly watch any TV simply because I don't have that much time, and when I do, I'd rather be making music... but I was surprised to hear that Craig does the dishes! Imagine dat!

[Lee Tyler]

Originally posted by jonboy:

I hardly watch any TV simply because I don't have that much time, and when I do, I'd rather be making music... but I was surprised to hear that Craig does the dishes! Imagine dat!

http://www.barthphoto.com/dishwasher.jpg

[jonboy]

Wow, look at him go! Looks like a drummer..

[Anderton]

<>

 

Well actually, the dishwasher ends up doing quite a bit of them . Gotta love those labor-saving robots!

 

Not to get too far off topic, but we make a big deal about dinner around here because I spend so much time working it's one chance to really chill. The dinner process often takes a few hours, with me, my wife, and daughter all hanging out in the kitchen making stuff, then taking our time while we eat, usually accompanied by TV or a movie in the background. I highly recommend it as an alternative to the eat-dinner-fast syndrome.

[jonboy]

Sounds good, my kids are in their teens & getting them to hang around for a meal is harder than ever, but it used to be that way once... or was that a dream I had?

[Duddits]

Originally posted by LawrenceF:

Will is a very good actor but he was never a great rapper. If I remember correctly Will was doing "light" rap while others were going more artistic / poetic things. I mean he was ok and the songs were amusingly entertaining but I think the industry attemted to make a statement about rap by backing his early crossover move to TV. "Here's the reward for being good". It didn't work. No other rap artist imitated him.

 

I've never thought of him as a great artist by any means. Very good actor though. He never touched on any meaningful subjects that I can recall.

I know I may just be a cat, but I think you're a bit off with your history.

 

At the time Will debuted, rap had yet to embrace "meaningful" subjects. Most of it boiled down to "I'm a better MC than you," and Will really predated the development of "poetic rap."

 

Will and I were both working with the same management company when he came out with "Parents Just Don't Understand." No one thought it was going to be big, it was totally unprecedented, and he was up against enormous pressure to be more "ghetto." Jazzy Jeff and the Fresh Prince did well because they produced a great record and touched a nerve.

 

Will wasn't rewarded for "being good." The business doesn't "reward" anybody for anything outside of sales. Will sold millions of records, and earned an audience for TV and film. Incidentally, like his rap career, his acting carreer was boosted through risk ("6 Degrees of Separation").

 

Plus, why does every black rapper have to be ghetto? Not every black person is ghetto, so why hold all black artists to stereotypes? What Will rapped about was "meaningful" because it meant something to lots of people, even though it went against industry and popular stereotypes of what a rapper (or a black person) had to be. All the power to anyone who is able to do that!

 

Originally posted by LawrenceF:

That's what rap is supposed to be about. Telling stories about society and sub-society in a poetic and meaningful way, directed at a culture that can understand.

Nothing is supposed to be about anything. The great thing about being a musician is that you can do whatever you want.

 

But the main point is that as a musical artist, Will is fantastic. His voice and delivery are virtuostic, and his rhymes are clever as fck, especially because he doesn't say fck.

[henryrobinett]

Yeah! What he said!

 

Originally posted by Duddits:

Plus, why does every black rapper have to be ghetto? Not every black person is ghetto, so why hold all black artists to stereotypes? What Will rapped about was "meaningful" because it meant something to lots of people, even though it went against industry and popular stereotypes of what a rapper (or a black person) had to be. All the power to anyone who is able to do that!

I get so tired of this whether it's white people that do it or black people that do it. Whatever it is it's bullshit. I ain't ghetto and never have been, never will be and I'll be damned if I'm gonna be intimidated into being anything I'm not. I'll be damned if I'm going to be forced to identify with a sub-culture that also is not me or forced to agree with an industry that tells me who I am and what I've got to consume as a "Black American". Fuck that bullshit. Be who you are not who you think somebody wants you to be.

 

Originally posted by LawrenceF:

That's what rap is supposed to be about. Telling stories about society and sub-society in a poetic and meaningful way, directed at a culture that can understand.

Nothing is supposed to be about anything. The great thing about being a musician is that you can do whatever you want.

Yeah baby. That's the ticket.

[LawrenceF]

Wow, you guys had a strong reaction to my statement. Let me explain a little more.

 

When I said "culture or sub-culture" I never mentioned "ghetto". Where did that come from? I meant "talking to people that typically feel ignored by the larger society", i.e. the disenfranchised masses. Not necesarily "ghetto" but sure that would be included. Also included much to the surprise of the industry was the bored suburban white kids who nobody really listens to. Coincidentally when that was recognized all of a sudden these cd's need warning labels? Nobody cared before.

 

I was speaking about WAY before Will Smith, guys like The Last Poets or Gil Scott-Heron and a few others. The "spoken word over musical" performance" was originally not "ghetto" or violent or just rhyming over a nice beat. It was art. Will and guys his age were babies or not even born when that happened. Again, now it's evolved into "put my nine to yo head... yo mom cry cause you dead..." bla, bla, bla. No artistry just random violence and relentless "my crew will blast your crew."

 

Smith's "Parents Just Don't Understand" was, as I stated, a amusing and unique song. I'm not surprised it sold as well as it did. I liked it a lot. That's not the point. Record sales are not the indication of art, just the indication of success in the industry whether that be by clever marketing, or talented producers or whatever. Then again there are great artists who sell like hotcakes. It goes both ways. Brittney Spears sells lots of records. I rest my case.

 

By the way, I was born in the ghetto. I also had two loving parents who earned everything they have. It wasn't so bad. I only realized I was poor when I got to my early teens and saw more people with stuff I didn't or couldn't have. It's always gonna be a part of me but only I define what the world sees and hears from me.

 

I'm actually old enough to remember where the word came from. Rap, in the black community, was simply a term which described smooth talking. Mostly to females as in "I'm gonna go rap to that chick in the white pants". We actually practiced our "rap" lines and traded them with each other. Many were very, very dumb and pointless. Many were very, very creative and original. Much like the music. It also included a certain amount of self-indulging bragging.

 

A young black man from that time who had no "rap" didn't get many dates. The fact that it came to be a popular musical form is of no surprise to me. What surprised me is the senselessly violent content. Mostly from kids who never fired a shot in anger or been on the receiving end of a gun.

 

Lawrence

[Duddits]

Lawrence,

 

Thanks for more background. I appreciate where you're coming from.

 

But why do you believe that if something appeals to a bunch of people, it's not art? Beethoven's symphonies have sold a lot of records. Are they not art? You said you liked "Parents Just Don't Understand" a lot! So why let its popularity undermine its stature in your mind?

 

Your definition of high quality rap is 1) it is not liked by many people, and 2) it is about and for the disenfranchised. But not all rappers are disenfranchised! Will wasn't, so why pretend? His is also a black experience. Why denigrate it? What would you say, for example, if a black guy rapped about his college experience at Harvard. Would it not be art because it's not about what rap is "supposed to be about?"

 

I know these forums polarize views. But why not rethink your belief that rap has to conform to stereotypes, or it isn't art? Besides, isn't it really those musicians who do not conform to stereotypes, such as Gil Scott Heron, and Will Smith (now don't hate him because he's popular!) who are the true artists?

[LawrenceF]

Originally posted by Duddits:

Lawrence,

 

Thanks for more background. I appreciate where you're coming from.

 

But why do you believe that if something appeals to a bunch of people, it's not art? Beethoven's symphonies have sold a lot of records. Are they not art? You said you liked "Parents Just Don't Understand" a lot! So why let its popularity undermine its stature in your mind?

 

Your definition of high quality rap is 1) it is not liked by many people, and 2) it is about and for the disenfranchised. But not all rappers are disenfranchised! Will wasn't, so why pretend? His is also a black experience. Why denigrate it? What would you say, for example, if a black guy rapped about his college experience at Harvard. Would it not be art because it's not about what rap is "supposed to be about?"

 

I know these forums polarize views. But why not rethink your belief that rap has to conform to stereotypes, or it isn't art? Besides, isn't it really those musicians who do not conform to stereotypes, such as Gil Scott Heron, and Will Smith (now don't hate him because he's popular!) who are the true artists?

I hear ya. I meant that just because it sells a lot does not mean it's art it's just popular. I'm not speaking stereotypes but reality. A lot of rappers in my opinion just really have nothing to say. You're right in that Will did with "Parents". Most of what I hear these days is just using different phrases to say the same thing. "I'm a badder thug than you..."

 

Anyway, you make very valid points and I appreciate them. Thanks man. I enjoy a good exchange of ideas.

 

Lawrence

[Archer]

OK, I'll admit it too, I've been watching it. I've heard a lot of talk about it before but I finally get Fox now so I"ve been watching from the start. I think it's hilairious!

 

I think Elton John summed up my thoughts pretty well about it though when he said, "that Laytoya (?) was in the bottom three last week shows there are a lot of idiots out there." or something to that effect.

 

Every week I can't believe that red hair guy is still there. Each time he gets worse.

 

I think Simon is pretty much right on as well but I wish the crowd would let him get a word in edge wise, he's just telling it like it is and he makes me laugh.

[RABid]

I like this show, but I wish that you voted someone off rather than voted who to keep. Maybe then 3 of my 5 favorite contestants would not be in the bottom three consistently, and one of my favorites might not be gone. The bad thing is when people get stuck singing a style that does not fit, and the Elton John episode made it clear that not every song is for every person. I hated to see Amy Adams go and the two white guys, Jon and John, should be gone. Yuck. Anyway, my favorite five that are left, favorite to least favorite

 

La Toya London

Diana DeGarmo (though the last two weeks made her look bad)

Fantasia Barrino

Jennifer Hudson

George Huff

[Anderton]

I'm starting to think I should post a poll here so we can all vote !!

[Duddits]

Originally posted by LawrenceF:

A lot of rappers in my opinion just really have nothing to say. You're right in that Will did with "Parents". Most of what I hear these days is just using different phrases to say the same thing. "I'm a badder thug than you..."

True that, and it's not just the words, but the music too. I was driving along the other day and there was a mix of "old school rap" from the 90s, and it sounded so much funkier than a lot of the velveeta coming out today.

 

FWIW, I was in the office of Will Smith's managament company when copies of "Parents Just Don't Understand" were brought in (I was working with some other artists handled by the same group). I remember thinking, "I don't want this. This looks corny and stupid." I took one anyway. Then, I remember seeing it on MTV and still thinking that it looked corny and stupid, but I actually kind of liked the way it sounded, and then I really liked it, and then I loved it more than life itself. Well, maybe not that much, but I liked it and became a fan. I bought his later records and I developed an appreciation for his "virtuostic" rap technique -- I can't even say slowly some of the things he can say fast, and with perfect "punch."

 

And then he played a gay guy in a movie! For a rapper to do that takes some guts, especially given the criticism of him as "soft" ("yeah, MicroSoft" as he says).

 

In any case, what I'm saying is that my initial impression of his music was wrong, and he's earned his spot in rap and acting. And although it's been a long and winding road back to the initial point of transgression (and maybe no longer relevant), I think that, compared to Will Smith, George Huff is not a genuine contender in either field. But who knows, I was wrong about Will Smith, maybe I'm wrong about George Huff. I think Craig is right and we should vote.

Originally posted by LawrenceF:

 

Anyway, you make very valid points and I appreciate them. Thanks man. I enjoy a good exchange of ideas.

Same here, but I'm not a man, I'm a cat.

 

[m2]

Did anyone watch this weeks show? I just happened to catch it accidently, my kids were watching or something, oh wait, I ain't got no kids, uh, my dog...er, ain't got no dog...

 

Quentin Tarantino?! Nice necklace. I thought he was a pretty good judge though.

 

If Fantasia doesn't win, that would be puzzling.

[henryrobinett]

Fantasia is da bomb! Fantasia is da bomb! That was an unbelievabe performance from her last night. She is IT

[RABid]

After last night I am changing the order of my favorite five.

 

1. Fantasia Barrino

2. Jennifer Hudson

3. George Huff

4. La Toya London

5. Diana DeGarmo (probably gone after last night though she is much better than the Jon and John croakers.)

[bigswole31]

FANTASIA IS IN ANOTHER LEAGUE compared to everyone else. There are some good singers on the show (Latoya, Jennifer, George) but NONE of them possess the magic that she has. They are good singers, but not icons. I think that Randy summed it up best when he stood to his feet and said, "That was the greatest performance of ANY American Idol of ANY season!!" She has it all...talent, chops, range, charisma, personality, and guts. She sung a jazz ballad on a pop show and killed it!!!

 

What I am afraid of is the fact that the two least talented cats (Jon Peter Lewis and John Stevens) did a PASSABLE job last night. If America voted for these guys when they were absolutely HORRIBLE, then I'm sure they will get tons of votes when they manage not to make absolute fools of themselves.

 

Which takes me to my last issue: What is this American fascination with the underdog? If a person has sacrificed and worked hard to be the best, why do the masses want to see them lose to someone less able? Look at how people whine when a hard working team wins too many championships (Jordan and the Bulls). People root for the other team because they are tired of the people who earned it getting the trophy. They love it when a boxer who has worked hard to stay at the top of his game gets dropped by a lucky punch from an obscure fighter. Some people see a Fantasia as "unfairly advantaged" and cast "help 'em out" votes for less talented contestants. Why?!

 

If Fantasia loses to ANYBODY, it will not make any sense to me, and if one of the "John"s win, then it will indeed be a sad statement for the state of the Union.

 

Peace