Will film score composers be outsourced?

[Dan South]

Will film score composers be outsourced in the near future? Think about it. Why do they HAVE to be in the States? I'm sure that there are excellent composers in Hungary or the Czech Republic who would be glad to do the job for less.

 

How about mastering engineers? Can't you just send your mixes over the internet to someone in the former Yugoslavia and have them master your CD for five-hundred bucks or something like that?

 

CD pressing and duplicating. I'm sure that that could be done offshore for less.

 

How about studio musicians? Why pay high rates when some guys Bulgaria would do it for so much less? Just put the artist and the producer on a plane (coach fare) and in a few weeks, presto! Cheap album!

 

And speaking of those artists and producers, there are an awful lot of talented people in the developing world who would do the job without the expense of managers or limo rides or posh Hollywood parties or big cocaine budgets. Time to cut co$t$!

 

Attorneys? Managers? Concert promoters? A&R people? Record execs? Why to ANY of these people need to be located domestically? Why should anyone have to spend fifteen percent of their gross on some slimy operator who's going to blow it on on a new Merdeces, a face life for his wife and jewelry for his mistress? I'm sure that there are some ex-Russian mobsters who'd do the job for a LOT less - and who's going to ARGUE with them?

 

This oursourcing concept is going to be GREAT for America and great for the industry, too!

 

(DEVILS_ADVOCATE_MODE=OFF)

[Alndln]

Originally posted by Dan South:

How about studio musicians? Why pay high rates when some guys Bulgaria would do it for so much less? Just put the artist and the producer on a plane (coach fare)

Why not just use an ftp and skip the plane fare.

[Mr Darling]

and why do you think it will happen now?

Those countries were offering cheaper rates for ever. And it is true, sometimes orchestras will be used , or cd pressing etc. But to be honest, the sallery gap is getting smaller and smaller - not the other way around.

 

There are loads of films done out of the USA (yes, even American produced film) there are loads of scores written through out the world. there are cd pressing plants everywhere.

 

Actually, if anything, here in Belgium we have much more to worry about.As the most expensive country in Europe , we're the one who will lose the most business first

[dementia13]

and why do you think it will happen now?

Because it's a rapidly escalating trend here: skilled technical jobs that paid well in the past are being outsourced to India. We're going to have a lot of smart, talented, and educated people working factories and construction in a few years. As a positive and optimistic person, I see a potential economic and social disaster here. Now I'm glad that I didn't follow through with that Computer Science degree a few years back.

[Rog]

We're talking abou capitalism here, aren't we?

 

If Jeff wants $30,000 a year and Harpal wants $8,000 then that's the end of the story.

 

I find it strange that Bush can be so protectionist with regards to trade(imposing tariffs on import of certain commodities) and yet he does nothing to protect American jobs. Can anyone tell me why this is? (without getting into a political slanging match which belongs downstairs)

 

That's the price you pay for technology which enables workers to live practically anywhere on the planet. In years gone by, skilled workers had to emmigrate to get the jobs, now they don't. I can't see this changing until the gulf between the haves and the have nots becomes smaller. This will happen and has already happened quite a few times. Many far-Eastern nations started off very poor thirty or fourty years ago and have now developed and offer a decent standard of living for their people.

 

Of course, once India develops to this level and wages become comparable to those offered in the West, jobs will move to a less developed country and there are many of them. Look at Africa.

 

So, the basic deal will remain the same, American jobs will continue to move overseas but the details will change all the time as the cycle of development continues.

 

Is this a good or a bad thing?

 

On one hand, it's a real problem for Americans who will struggle to get jobs.

 

On the other hand, as the huge gulf between us affulent Westerners and those poorer developing nations becomes smaller, I can see less terrorism in the world. It's hard to hate "US capitalistic infidels" when you work for them and draw a decent wage - all of a sudden your kids get a good education, health care and your standard of living improves dramatically.

 

I can't see many jobs in the arts moving overseas though. Creative processes thrive on face to face communication. Even so, we already have iChat via broadband. Maybe bands won't even need to show up at a studio in the near future?

 

This has already happened in my profession (radio) Voiceovers used to do a circut of stations, popping into the one I work at on, say, a Tuesday and we'd save up suitable scripts until then.

 

Now nearly all voiceovers are done via ISDN. I've used some voices for years, know all about them, chat to them regularly ... and I still have no idea what they look like. Dave Bryce did a session for us a while back by email from the other side of the planet (cheers Dave, did you get paid OK?)

 

My 2 rupees.

[Geoff Grace]

If only those record industry jobs were being outsourced, then at least somebody would be getting the work. Unfortunately, about half of the work available from the major labels has just plain disappeared.

 

As for film and television, a lot of music is already outsourced. Source music is a thriving industry, and the music libraries that the ever increasing number of cable networks license from are growing by leaps and bounds.

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[Duddits]

I know I may just be a cat, but I think it's already happening in the following way:

 

Filmscores that use orchestras are frequently being recorded in Eastern Europe, where orchestra performance/recording rates are much cheaper far far away from American unions.

 

Some friends of mine who just completed a Hollywood film spent 25K (on musicians) recording the soundtrack with the Prague Symphony Orchestra. It would have cost easily over 100K if they recorded in LA.

 

Happens ALLLLLLLLL the time.

[Jazz Guitar]

Originally posted by Dan South:

Will film score composers be outsourced in the near future?

Not likely, the Pat Metheny Group still resides in the good ol USA.

[dementia13]

I find it strange that Bush can be so protectionist with regards to trade(imposing tariffs on import of certain commodities) and yet he does nothing to protect American jobs. Can anyone tell me why this is? (without getting into a political slanging match which belongs downstairs)

I hope this isn't getting too close to a slanging match, but I believe it's that Bush is pro-corporation, and really doesn't look out for the average American worker. The voters may have put him in office (ahem), but the corporations provided the funding that paid for the advertising that influenced the minds of those voters, and it's to the corporations that Bush is loyal. We're just pawns, inconsequential.

[Biggus]

Of course, once India develops to this level and wages become comparable to those offered in the West, jobs will move to a less developed country and there are many of them. Look at Africa.

You sir, get the hit the nail on the head award. This is exactly what will happen. History proves this. Remember, after the WWII, Japan was considered the cheap labor market.

 

The fact of the matter is that we as Americans are going to have to come to grasp the fact that we may not all be able to buy McMansions and Mazzarattis...

[Saint Johnny B]

Sad, but this, along with mix jobs, is a real concern. If Bush gets his way, he will export all American jobs to India and Red China because they are cheap labor countries. Bush acts like traitor.

 

I love CNN's Lou Dobbs Journal TV show, Lou Dobbs hammers the Bush Regime for exporting America's jobs overseas. Hurray for Lou Dobbs.

[ani]

Dan,

 

Continuing to outsource American jobs will drive the unemployment rates up on American soil. The more companies that resort to outsourcing of services, the more that will follow to keep up with the demands of competition. As more and more jobs are shipped overseas, more and more companies will suffer major layoffs for American workers or they will go belly up in bankruptcy.

 

As more and more unemployed Americans try to replace wages comparible to what is a "necessity" to maintain, especially when there are very limited resources; Americans will suffer great losses. There will be massive bankruptcies, home foreclosures, repossesions, working 3 jobs to maintain current status, taking a huge steps down in lifestyle, negligence in obtaining proper health care to avoid extra expenses, and etc just to be able to cope in the American society.

 

Troubled times continue to worsen as wages are driven down while costs of living expenses are driven up with skyrocketing gasoline prices escalating the entire business world (who recovers their expenses by passing the costs off to the consumer.) Less and Less Americans will be splurging on entertainment, buying of new homes, new cars, and etc.

 

When you have driven the average American workers to levels of poverty, while the rich sit back raking in the profits while enjoying the tax incentives and advantages provided to corporate America; who will be there to buy the goods.

 

I could really get off on a tangent about this topic, but it's wasted energy and my time is much better spent building on my dreams that hopefully will provide an avenue of income for when my day job collapses to outsourcing. I suppose I could always go crawling back home to my family... but then I'd have to live under their control which is not something I'd ever want to return to.

 

It would be nice to see one six month period where the entire world of the working class would SHUT DOWN and refuse to labor for the wealthy pigs that rape the land for everything it is worth... No military forces sent to slaughter to fight political wars (Soldiers would lay their weapons to the ground), no communications, no transportation services, no food service providers, no factories operating to process food supplies, no maintnance workers to keep machines or building operable, no machine workers to operate those machines, no deliveries of supplies, no supplies being manufactured........

 

It would be entertaining to watch what would become of the rich to see them become as beggars for seeking food after existing supplies of food ran out. It would be interesting to see how many of those that mock the "blue collar" worker who would have the skill to plant a seed and make it grow while not having the convenience of the working class to do the chores for them. Would they have the muscle it took to run a plow by hand... would they have the knowledge to fix a broken piece of equipment required to complete a task???? Would they know how to chop wood for a fireplace to warm themselves in the winter without cutting their feet or arms off, or having the tree fall on them crushing them to death???? How about having them "work" in a oil field or a refinery to produce their own resources of fuel... The list continues, but without the working class of people, the indolent that suck off of the system and the rich that rape the land dry without showing appreciation for those that make their livelihood possible and produce the goods or deliver the services that line their pockets with silver and fill their bank accounts with gold..... those people would surely parish or at least they would learn a new appreciation for life and those who contribute to their mere existence.

 

<<<< OPEN FIRE >>>> end of rant, now I'm off to get back to dreamweaving.... I don't have time to closely follow this thread... I have to work for a living.

[Dan South]

Ani,

 

Good points. Outsourcing, like so many OTHER business policies that are in vogue these days, offers only a short term gain. If Ford decides to manufacture all of their cars in, say, Ethiopia, then they'll be able to sell their cars for less (or sell them for the same price but keep bigger profits).

 

But but big question is this - WHO is going to BUY these cars? Not the former US autoworkers who now wash dishes and dig ditches for a living. They don't make enough money. As more and more companies outsource their labor forces, average personal disposable income goes down. This means that fewer people can buy the products, even if the prices are lowered. Prices won't go down THAT much, because there is some overhead to oursourcing (shipping, telecommunications and travel expenses, increased management costs). The cost savings will be short lived. As wages drop consistently over several years, revenues will go down. This is an inescapable conclusion.

 

Further, the tax base decreases. That means less money for highways, medicare, social security, the military, and less to pay down the astronomical public debt that we've managed to run up. Imagine having a big mortgage, lots of credit card debt, lots of medical expenses and a group of expensive security guards, and then suddenly your income is cut dramatically. Uh oh! You're in big trouble! You can no longer pay for everything. Something's got to go, but what? The security guards? The medical procedures? Your house? This, in a nutshell, is where our government will end up if we don't take steps to keep the labor market healthy.

 

Outsourcing is an insidious cancer that is poised to burn through our society like a brush fire. It must be challenged at every turn.

[I I mjrn]

Several ideas here that I hadn't previously known...but for those who are hired for their particular skill (or at least name cache) like John Williams, etc., will still get that work, although that's probably to change as present composers/performers pass on.

I agree that there's a threat to USA & other Western society citizens in this whole trend because we must meet a higher cost of living than those in some other countries but we must accept ther facts of our evolving (devolving?) world,

The heyday of governmental concern for citizens that occurred in the 20th century was a situation that didn't exist previously &, as business has regained the upper hand on government control, has been on the way out for a while (remember Reagan & the air traffic control union?).

 

As with all aspects of "the Net revolution", etc., we need to find ways to turn te situation to our advantage (such as developing ?"outside" marketing strategies instead of waiting for EMI to make us wealthy) rather than sit back & expect that larger businesses & corporations are going to remain static in their approach to anything.

[mikegrijak]

Blind, each and every one of you!

 

This is all ordained by the Living GOD and His Christ!

 

Read the books of Daniel and of Revelation; things will get MUCH WORSE worldwide, they will not get better!

 

None of us can any more stop this than we can pull the sun out of the heavans!

 

You that look for a one world government and a one world at peace in unity will one day get it--for a very short time, but, thankfully I will be long gone by then Thank you Lord Jesus!

[Rog]

Are you trying to be funny?

[ani]

LOL Dan,

 

You had me going there for a minute. The way you worded your first post in this thread almost appeared to be PRO outsourcing and encouraging the loss of American jobs; seemed off flavor for your normal stance on issues.

 

Americans "COULD" help the situation by boycotting any companies that are outsourcing jobs..... EVERYONE seems to be going for the best bang for the buck though... If these people would only realize that they are enabling the outsourcing of American jobs by running to Walmart and likewise to get the better deal, perhaps they might think about why it is that "their" employers are seeking means to cut "their" budgets as well.

 

If business owners have no market for their cheap rate labored items, then there would be no need for outsourcing.... PERIOD!!!

 

I don't have problems with people from other countries seeking to improve their living conditions. However, I do not believe that a nation should destroy the lives of their own citizens by using their tax dollars to make opportunities available to outsiders when those same people whose tax dollars support opportunity are being shoved out of jobs and forced into undesirable living conditions within the states.

 

[edited to separate outsourcing (above) from those immigrants moving to and residing within the states who are working for pennies on the dollar]

 

If immigrants were not handed government funds to assist with living expenses, education, and other things that American citizens are required to pay out of their own bank accounts, or if these people were required to uphold housing laws that are mandated upon US Citizens... these people would not be able to support their existence in America at cut rate labor wages; they would require fair wages comparible to those that are earned by Americans to coexist in the same societies without federal aid.

 

American citizens are REQUIRED to adhere to strict guidelines subject to Single or Multiple Family dwellings or penalties will be assessed; seems that housing authorities turn the other way when it involves opportunists. Vagrancy laws prohibit American citizens from living out of automobiles, campers set on unauthorized premises, and they are subject to heavy fines or even incarceration for attempting to live on the streets. We have tons of immigrants now "LIVING" in public parks, moving from one lot to the next when told the are in violation of codes; it's just a rotating cycle, but they are not given a 3 strikes, you're out mandate. There are campers of multiple families of folks squatting on vacant private or public grounds and very little is done to remove them without a major movement by a Homeowner's society where territories are being invaded. If these people were Americans, they would be prosecuted for violation of Trespassing laws, vagrancy, and other laws.

 

As I struggle in being a single mother to try to put funds together to provide college educations for my children, wondering what and how much I am going to have to sacrifice to afford them that "necessary" opportunity; it saddens me that portions of my hard earned wages are handed over to continually provide these upgrades in lifestyle to outsiders when I'm constantly being threatened with the news that my employer is seeking to "privatize" and outsource jobs. When the Social Security retirement age continues to go up, while payout percentages continue to go down, yet we still have the funds available to keep handing over to OPPORTUNITY for outsiders... American taxpayers suffer the consequences.

 

As job benefits are whittled away, insurance premiums continue to escalate, health costs continue to rise, laws mandate new taxes for this and for that... licenses, permits, and insurances are required to operate automobiles, perform home improvements, purchase supplies in certain fields....... yet these things are freely handed away daily to provide a better life for those seeking opportunity.

 

I love all people of all races and of all places around the world, so I am not down on people trying to get ahead; I just feel that there needs to be BALANCE....

 

Here are a couple of searches I conducted for "government assistance to immigrants" and "immigrant welfare". Try finding college funding for the average American citizen without any minority qualifications to put their children through college. Try finding anything "for free"... for the average American.

 

http://search2.shopnav.com/apps/epa/epa?cid=shnv9887&s=immigrants%20welfare

 

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=government+a ssistance+immigrants&btnG=Search

[Duddits]

Obviously, the idea of outsourcing for cheaper filmscoring labor is undermined by the willingness of domestic composers to work for squat.

 

There's no shortage of composers in the U.S. who will work for beans.

[Dan South]

Originally posted by Ani:

You had me going there for a minute. The way you worded your first post in this thread almost appeared to be PRO outsourcing and encouraging the loss of American jobs; seemed off flavor for your normal stance on issues.

 

Did ya read the last line of the first post?

[ani]

Yeah Dan,

 

I wasn't sure if it was meant as sarcasm or ??? You're still the same ole you; I've just been out of the loop in getting involved in these type threads. I rarely find myself browsing over to the Political thread... (and this one leans heavily towards politics inside the music biz ... especially with my input )

 

(remember Reagan & the air traffic control union?).

Don't forget that Reagan was also in reign during the busting of Southwestern Bell / ATT also the Deregulation of the Airlines, and several other biggies. Daddy Bush was by his side....

[whitefang]

Originally posted by Biggus:

Of course, once India develops to this level and wages become comparable to those offered in the West, jobs will move to a less developed country and there are many of them. Look at Africa.

You sir, get the hit the nail on the head award. This is exactly what will happen. History proves this. Remember, after the WWII, Japan was considered the cheap labor market.

 

The fact of the matter is that we as Americans are going to have to come to grasp the fact that we may not all be able to buy McMansions and Mazzarattis...

What's really changed since then, and what's hurt us the most, is the perception of Japanese quality. It was OK for a few decades after WWII that Japanese made products were sold in this country. They were considered cheaply made with cheap materials. "Made in Japan" was a punchline for so many years, American corporations felt safe in cutting costs on retooling, research and materials for too long. In that time period, Japanese made products increased in quality while NOT increasing prohibitively in cost. By the time American corporations got bitten in the ass by that fact, it was too late. And don't try telling me American LABOR got lax in the proccess. As a retired autoworker, I've witnessed in the last 30 years the reluctnance of the manufacturer to pay strict attention to material and tooling. I've spent much of that time expected to make silk purses out of sow's ears. With tools most common folk would throw away as useless. Of all the cuts American corporations made; labor, wages, benefits, pension...the only cuts they ignored were the executive level salaries.

 

The average CEO of any Japanese corporation reporting record profits takes home less than HALF of an American corporation's third-level VP in a company recording losses. All that extra cash in Japanese corporations goes back to the company in the form of worker benefits(Toyota even has a whole town where the company pays for the schooling and hospitals, and provides easily affordable housing for several of it's employees), retooling, research and developement and materials. The best way an American corporation found to deal with this is to close down stateside facilities and build plants in third-world Asian countries with cheap labor. God forbid THEY sacrifice stock options and bonuses!

 

As far as movie scores? In a way, a lot of them HAVE been "outsourced", as more and more films(now lesser efforts, but increasing in major productions)use pre-recorded, "popular" music as background, theme and exit music. Several TV networks have all but eliminated the popular genre of "theme" songs as openers. I think ABC started that trend about three or so years ago.

 

Whitefang