Tyros 4 -Bose B2 sub- EQ woes.

[I-missRichardTee]

Yesterday I bought a larger sub for Bose L1 Model 2, the B2 sub.

Coupled it with my Tyros4 ( which I have mixed feelings about).

 

I had tried b2 once before and returned it.. But this time I thought maybe you did not explore the Para metric and other eq on the Bose sufficiently. Another reason is my Eon 15 is old.

I like a warm full sound..

Here is what occurred last night on a 4 hour gig.

 

I messed with the fully parametric eq on both the Bose ToneMatch and the global parametric on the tyros.

All I was mainly aiming at was to see if the bass tone in the b2 sub, could be shaped in various ways.

In general I tend to dislike subs.

I think the Bose routes to sub either 180 or 200 hertz down.

Maybe that is the reason that no matter what settings I tried, the bass tone did not alter very much at all, other than louder or softer.

 

Maybe it is time to dump the tyros and get a montage?

This is a multi topic because, well, that is how I think ( knee bone connected to leg bone, kind of thinker )

I do not want to start another topic ( unless you suggest I do? ) just to ask a Montage question. How many parts can I control the volume of in Montage?

My Roland G6 controls about 8 I believe. Kurz 4.. Tyros 4 but in a limited way.

 

Why did I hear very little difference in basses tone in the tyros Bose?

 

[J. Dan]

I'm not a fan of Bose in general, so you may take the rest of what I say with a grain of salt, though I WILL back up my opinion with some facts.

 

First generalization: any time you have to use EQ or other types of DSP to correct for design flaws, you're likely going to get bad results. Best practice is to design the product to not require correction in the first place.

 

Let's talk specifically about their subs. It's a patented design with advantages and disadvantages. As long as it's for personal use, you can use other peoples' patents, and I in fact have built my own home theater sub using their patent along with some design software to tune the system according to my driver selection. So I understand their technology and the pros and cons. In my specific case, I used their technology in order to squeeze my sub into a wedge shaped cabinet that went in a corner behind a chair and acted as a stand for a lamp. If the best possible sound and output was my goal, I would not have gone that direction.

 

Bose uses a 6th order Bandpass design. In essence, it limits both the high and low end response and puts that energy into one big huge hump in the middle. They actually get GAIN from the enclosure so that in the midband, the output is higher than what the drivers themselves would output. It seems impressive at first to get such a large output from small drivers in a small box, until you realize that it's all focused over a narrow band and in fact is a bit high compared to most subs. They really don't actually go that deep and have nothing at all close to a flat response. All boom.

 

So don't judge subwoofers in general or any kind of product selection based on what it sounds like through their bass module.

[I-missRichardTee]

So the fact that I played around with two parametrics, one on Bose and one on Tyros, and I did not hear much variation in that sub, is attributed to the extreme limitation of the "6th order sub"?

 

Unreal. I swept from 50 hertz to 500 or more; result.. essentially the same character in the bass.

[J. Dan]

I'll add a bit more on the sticks and the crossover frequency. I think most recognize that they are using line array technology with a bunch of really small drivers. The magic of a line array is that it is a cylindrical dispersion instead of spherical, which results in 3 dB drop every doubling of distance instead of 6 dB drop. This only occurs over a limited range depending on things like the length and shape of the line array. Furthermore, driver size and spacing will affect things like comb filter effects at the high end of the frequency range.

 

For this reason, the bose sticks really only do well over the mid frequency range. I've always thought that they are perfect for a guy playing acoustic guitar and singing in a coffee shop, but have never liked the sound of a full band playing through them. Like the subs, the reaction is something like "wow, I can't believe that sound is coming out of those sticks". That's fine, and may be impressive, but still doesn't mean the sound is good. Good for what you're looking at, but not good compared to other options, IMHO.

 

So yes, they are in fact crossed over really high compared to what you would select for must subwoofers for a number of reasons - first, the line array effect doesn't extend down very low due to the length of the sticks, and second, those tiny drivers can't produce those frequencies. Enter the bass module with everything I said above - create a big boom in the upper bass to make it seem like you're getting a lot of bass out of a small module.

[J. Dan]

So the fact that I played around with two parametrics, one on Bose and one on Tyros, and I did not hear much variation in that sub, is attributed to the extreme limitation of the "6th order sub"?

 

Unreal. I swept from 50 hertz to 500 or more; result.. essentially the same character in the bass.

 

EQ can only do so much. The physical limitations of the sub design will prevent you from ever getting a good sound no matter how much EQ you add.

[I-missRichardTee]

Well what systems would you suggest that are full range, but are also particularly useful for a guy who is very fussy about a perfect bass sound?

As I mentioned... I am generally not a friend of subs. Even the manner that PA companies use subs, is very distasteful to me. But one exception put a smile on my face.

I believe it was a company affiliated with Lucas ( the Hollywood Lucas ) that did sound for an October fest with lots of massive EV subs, but with NO nasty subsonics normally associated with subs. One day I looked at the EQ settings, and the bottom three faders were almost off! A beautiful natural sound. I know modern music uses sub sonic sounds, but for me, they are unnatural; possibly even harmful to small children wildlife and plants

 

 

[J. Dan]

Is this just personal monitoring or full sound reinforcement and for what size room and what's your budget?

 

You're getting back into topics that have been discussed ad nauseum. If you have a few grand laying around, a pair of the RCF TT08A's seem to be highly regarded. If you want to stick with compact line array's, there are a number of other manufacturers out there making systems:

 

HK Audio Elements

Fohhn Linea LX100

LD Systems Maui 28

Meyer Sound CAL

FBT Vertus

K-Array Blueline KB1

 

The only ones I've heard are the HK ones, which were pretty decent.

[I-missRichardTee]

I do not generally do FOH larger gigs. And the Bose concept is all in one- monitoring and mains in one package.

I used a $3000 one piece HK Element array in tandem with the Bose L1 Model 2... Now that was a nice full sound.

 

I own to K10's but something is missing with them as well. I am afraid to consider their ( QSC ) heavy sub as an addition ( both weight, price and mainly the sense I will not get the timbral flexibility, similar to Bose sub)

 

I have a fear or aversion to having a nice sound from k 10 and then this sub that is like a dull dud.

Subs have created such a negative impact on me, because of the way I heard them used.

Again the exception was mentioned above, with much of the subsonics attentuated. But if a sub only cuts off at 125, I am confused. 125 is the top of a sub.. so all the cool ( 50t to 1000 hz ) sounds of bass eq will be relegated back to the 2 measly 10's.

 

This takes me back to my 15 " Eons ( not well liked by many here- I do not get it )

When I used 2 15's that was the closest to what I hear in my head, they went surprisingly low too.

But G2 Eon's are old now.

 

On a louder gig I would have to choose between 3 or 4 Eons's or 2 Eons and a sub. I am thinking 4 Eons might be better, because of my fear of subs just making mud and not enhancing those bass frequencies I like that the Eon's do surprisingly well.

You guys are mostly not bass playing addicts, so maybe that explains less love for Eon 15 G2's.

 

Sorry for my rambling.

[J. Dan]

I do not generally do FOH larger gigs. And the Bose concept is all in one- monitoring and mains in one package.

I used a $3000 one piece HK Element array in tandem with the Bose L1 Model 2... Now that was a nice full sound.

 

Yeah, the HK's sound pretty nice and are the same concept as the Bose. Nice thing with them is that they are fairly scalable in terms of stacking pieces and they're all modular so that the sub modules drive the columns directly so there is no additional wiring. You could ditch the Bose and go solely with the HK and decide based on the size of the gig how many modules you wanna stack.

[I-missRichardTee]

Let me try to simplify this... Which way to go 2 mains and a sub

or four mains acting as monitors also? 4 15" main/monitors ( they can be set up as serving two functions, both main and monitors.. that's the way we used to do it )

or 2 mains and a sub??

 

[J. Dan]

I feel ilke we're chasing a moving target here.

 

I explained why the Bose system doesn't sound good.

 

You asked me what sounds good and I asked about your requirements to which you responded you don't normally do FOH larger gigs.

 

I made some suggestions and now you're asking about larger traditional FOH systems?

 

If I was understanding correctly, you like the compact line array system but it's not cutting it for sound quality or larger rooms. My suggestion is replace it with something like the HK system which will sound great and is completely scalable. I have played through the HK system as FOH sound with a 5pc loud rock band in a bar with about 250 people and it did fine. I don't remember how many modules that was....I think 2-3 bass modules and 1-2 columns per side.

 

Point being, rather than just try to add to the Bose system, you could go ground up with something that sounds better, is scalable based on what you need, and will continue to sound good as you scale it up.

[I-missRichardTee]

I own Bose and 2 K10's and 3 Eon 15's. Did not mean to put left foot in one dinghy and the right in another!

 

The number of Elements you suggested sounds delicious, but I may lack the funds!

 

So far, out of all my experience, the warmth of two 15's at my side, is my favorite. That sound also takes sufficient care of "house" sound on the non FOH, smaller venues.

 

I had earlier hypothesized about either 4 15's or 2 15' and a sub.

Do you have an opinion about those 2 configurations?

 

OT long ago I was in the minority about "my sound is number one.. audiences sound is number two".

If I hear one of my favorite bands, I want THEM to be ultra happy with their sound, so they can be most apt to have a killer performance. While great sound in monitors does not guarantee great performance, the converse.. bad sound for band, increases chances of a less than perfect performance.

Most people here say the converse position... audience first, player second.

 

[Jazzmammal]

I'm not competent to get all technical talking about 6th order whatever, DSP correction etc. I think old school is the best. 70's era JBL and Altec for bass. A killer 15" driver like the Altec 421H or JBL K145 in a 4.5 cubic foot enclosure. Or what the Ampeg guys used to use with the chrome amps sitting on top of a similar 15" cabinet. Killer bass sound. These all have one thing in common, the ability to move lots of air and that only comes with size. The problem? A 4.5 foot cabinet with a JBL K145 in it weighs 75 to 100 pounds just by itself and won't fit in the back of most cars including hatchbacks. How do I know this? I have that cab sitting in the garage along with the JBL horn with a built in crossover they last sold around 1978 or so. I powered that rig with a Peavy power amp a Mackie mixer. Just for my keyboards. The best sound I've ever had period. The Peavy is a boat anchor, it weighs about 70 pounds by itself, another 80 or so for the cabinet, 25 for the horn plus, plus. You add it up. Are you willing to schlep something like that around?

 

The whole point of modern tech is to make it smaller and lighter but still sound good. Modern stuff usually misses the mark imho but I've never tried the ultra expensive speakers some talk about around here. You're no spring chicken T and neither am I. Short of that it's gonna be one compromise after another.

 

There is no answer to your "how do I get great sound" questions that hasn't been discussed to death already. There's only two answers. Old school huge and heavy or modern but extremely expensive. Every one of the mid range $2,000 or so options everybody talks about suck for your taste. Either live with it or step up and pay at least twice that or have a roadie for the big stuff.

 

Bob

[I-missRichardTee]

Hey Mr Jazz Mammalian Bob

i used to know a nutty keyboard player in Jersey who used mountains of speakers but always behind him.

If I try to recall the number of speakers he used.. I would be off and the actuall number would be HIGHER not lower than my estimate.

He used the old wooden Bose just for voice

He had 2 Leslies

He had dedicated huge bass amp ( Ampeg SVT likely )

He had many many more speakers than that

His concept was a wall of sound behind him... no such thing as monitors and mains

It was one beautiful thing

He set up a Hammond a digital keyboard and things I have forgotten

He said it took him 3 that's right three DAYS to set up!!

 

That is dedication... and he was a tiny slim fellow!

[stoken6]

Just bumping this thread with a little (not-gig) report on the Bose L1, which happens to be the PA in the main hall at the conference I'm attending. One stick+one sub on each side, mainly speech, plus a little music playback to accompany video inserts.

 

For speech, the line arrays work superbly. Good clarity, plus the classic line-array projection that pushes volume to the back of the hall without deafening those at the front. But those bass bins do nobody any favours. Every bassline to every soundtrack sounds like a pedalled A note! A couple of conventional 15in (or even 12in) would make all the difference.

 

The band I work with uses D&B 15in subs, and they have an uncanny ability to simply extend LF reproduction down a couple of octaves. No hype, no restricted frequency response, no "look at me, I'm a DJ with a really bass-heavy PA", just nice even bass. (The 2x8in tops they use are "OK", but a bit plasticky - I guess because they're plastic cabinets. The subs are MDF).

 

Cheers, Mike.

[cphollis]

FWIW, had a Bose L1 Model II with first-gen sub for a while.

 

Sold it, as it totally crumbled on live electric gigs. From there, went with a pair of JBL 3-way towers (forget the model?), amazing sound but sheesh what a roadie.

 

Settled into a more reasonable arsenal.

 

CPS v.3 for the teensy rooms where fill matters.

 

A pair of QSC K8.2s when I wanted to bring a bit more authority and clarity.

 

Above that, a pair of RCF TT08-a units. You've heard about these before, I trust? RCF made a nice sub that pairs with them that I own, but haven't needed it for keys yet. Drummers love it, though. I don't play keys through them much, as everyone wants to use them for FOH. OK, fine.

 

A pair of QSC KW-153 three ways that are, well, kinda stupid but totally fun. Got a great deal on them used, so why not? Big, loud towers dude

 

And the cherry on top? Fulcrum Acoustic FA12acs that have to be heard to be believed.

 

So, stupid money spent on stage amplification. And then I discovered digital mixers and IEMs. So now it's all becoming obsolete in my world.

 

I'll have some nice toys to sell before long!

[Reezekeys]

Years back I did some gigs with a wedding band that used a Bose stick system as a main PA, feeding it multiple vocals, drums and horns. I'm pretty sure the guitar & bass amps were on their own and I never sent a feed to the PA from my keys rig as my two K8s had enough juice for the gig. One Bose stick was right next to me. Playing these gigs were some of the most brutal ear-assaults I've ever had to endure. It could be that the young drummer, who was running the sound (red flag right there) had mismatched levels and was clipping things - but the sound of those sticks were harsh and my ears were ringing for days. In fairness, Bose was marketing them as "personal" sound systems, i.e. one stick per musician. Not as a main PA. The bandleader got rid of them not too soon after. They were a bear to transport and set up, and pretty expensive too, as I recall. And they sounded like complete shit to boot! I wondered how Bose sold any of those things unless they were truly intended only for low-volume coffeehouse gigs. Just my experience, YMMV as always!

[I-missRichardTee]

Years back I did some gigs with a wedding band that used a Bose stick system as a main PA, feeding it multiple vocals, drums and horns. I'm pretty sure the guitar & bass amps were on their own and I never sent a feed to the PA from my keys rig as my two K8s had enough juice for the gig. One Bose stick was right next to me. Playing these gigs were some of the most brutal ear-assaults I've ever had to endure. It could be that the young drummer, who was running the sound (red flag right there) had mismatched levels and was clipping things - but the sound of those sticks were harsh and my ears were ringing for days. In fairness, Bose was marketing them as "personal" sound systems, i.e. one stick per musician. Not as a main PA. The bandleader got rid of them not too soon after. They were a bear to transport and set up, and pretty expensive too, as I recall. And they sounded like complete shit to boot! I wondered how Bose sold any of those things unless they were truly intended only for low-volume coffeehouse gigs. Just my experience, YMMV as always!

 

Your experience checks with mine.. but not the way I use mine. 10 years ago, A band of weekend warriors used the " everyone in the single Bose " mode...

Anyone near that single bose array, heard an assault on the ear.

But as you said Bose never intended them for that over used application.

 

The Bose sound quite good if used in the manner they were designed for. But I still always missed the low mid area. Low mids are important for me.

So I recently tried the new 2x10" B2 Sub. And that filled up the bass decently.

Problem is, I cannot afford two L1 Model 2's... for stereo.

Most keyboards have forgotten or skimped on Mono mode; so Stereo is fairly obligatory