Help With Midi Patch Change

[Husker]

I am trying to learn about Midi patch changes, and I am confused about controller messages. What I am attempting to do is insert a midi event in my DAW's event list to change the patch on my Nord A1R.

However, I am confused on how exactly to set a specific patch on the Nord with this method. As an aside, the communication is fine - I can insert an event, and the Nord changes correctly, I just don't know what "numbers" to use to select the specific patch.

 

The Nord has Banks (A,B,C,D) as well as programs within the banks (1-40). For example, A1, C33, B17, etc. I am trying to figure out exactly what to put in the DAW event list to select, say, B37.

 

I have three fields in the DAW event insert I must fill out

 

Bank Select Method - Normal, Controller 0, Controller 32, or Patch 100-127

Bank - Some Number

Patch - A whole list of things (that seem to be General Midi instruments)

 

 

The relevant documentation from the DAW is as follows:

 

Normal

Take the value of Controller 0, multiply it by 128, and add the value of Controller 32 to derive the bank number.

Note: A synthesizer manufacturer may refer to Controller 0 as the MSB (Most Significant Byte) and to Controller 32 as the LSB (Least Significant Byte).

 

Controller 0 only

The value of Controller 0 is the bank number.

 

Controller 32 only

The value of Controller 32 is the bank number.

 

Patch 100...127

Take the patch number and subtract 100 to derive the bank number.

 

The relevant documentation from the Nord is as follows:

 

Program Change messages are transmitted on the Global MIDI channel and are recognized on the Global and/or the Slot MIDI Channels. Bank Select messages (CC00, CC32) are used to select the 8 program banks (CC00, value 0 + CC32 values 0-7) or the 4 performance banks (CC00, value 0 + CC32, value 0-3) when Performance Mode is active. Bank Select messages should be immediately followed by a Program Change message when you wish to select a bank from an external unit

 

I believe I would select "Normal" for the Bank Select Method. However, I am very confused by the rest. Can someone help out a newbie?

 

Thank you.

[J. Dan]

Bank A = CC#0=0, CC#32=0

Bank B = CC#0=0, CC#32=1

Bank C = CC#0=0, CC#32=2

Bank D = CC#0=0, CC#32=3

[Husker]

So then, for example, if I wanted to select B37.

 

I would set Bank Select Method as Normal, Bank as 01, and Patch as the 37th instrument listed?

 

C14 would be Normal, Bank as 02, and Patch as the 14th instrument listed?

[J. Dan]

Sounds right - only question is if your patch numbers start at 0 or 1. If the first patch in the Nord is A1, then that would be patch change 0, so they'd all be off by 1.

[Delaware Dave]

Agree with J Dan, you might be off one number; pretty easy to tell though when looking at what comes up on the Nord.

 

P.S. I always viewed this as an archaic approach, much akin to sys-ex changes rather than CC#'s. You would think a new standard with a simpler approach would have been figured out by now.

[Husker]

Thanks J. Dan. I was trying 1/2/3 in the Bank Field, but the results did not make sense. The leading zero may have been the issue.

 

I'll give that a shot tonight.

[J. Dan]

P.S. I always viewed this as an archaic approach, much akin to sys-ex changes rather than CC#'s. You would think a new standard with a simpler approach would have been figured out by now.

 

I don't know the history for sure, but I'm guessing this methodology developed over time as manufacturers added more patch storage as a means to keep things backward compatible.

 

The thing that makes it most confusing is the fact that different manufacturers implement it differently. Back when I was trying to make my Alesis Fusion control my Korg Triton, it was a nightmare. The only way I could really make it work was to keep the Fusion in Song mode and the Korg in Combi mode, and have the fusion control the Triton. Even still, I had to trick the Fusion into sending banks that didn't exist in the fusion, and it would have an "Illegal Bank" error, but I could get it to work.

[vonnor]

MIDI. The "Standard" that's far from it.

[stoken6]

Take a look at this thread on the Nord User Forum. The bottom post has an attachment designed for this very purpose.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Al Coda]

Take a look at this thread on the Nord User Forum. The bottom post has an attachment designed for this very purpose.

 

Cheers, Mike.

 

When reading that forum thread, I again know why I never bought any NORD keyboard.

 

This afternoon I really wanted to reply on the OP´s post above and deleted,- just only because I had the impression he understood all very well and it simply does´t work w/ that NORD machine.

NORD is lightweight and portable, built relatively well too, but NORD and MIDI is always ... I dunno.

 

That bank- and program change s##t is standardized since decades,- quasi set in stone since Nebukadnezar,- and there are issues always and not only w/ NORD.

 

I´m happy I have old working gear and some new stuff working as expected when it comes to MIDI,- Kurzweil p.ex..

 

It´s so simple:

 

There´s MIDI CC0 as an indicator there´s more to come ...

... followed by MIDI CC32 ... indicating there´s some bank-change command arriving soon ...

... followed by a program number within that (before specified = see CC32 value) bank number.

 

Any MIDI device misinterpreting this is a MISDESIGN (you already payed for) !

 

A.C.

[AnotherScott]

When reading that forum thread, I again know why I never bought any NORD keyboard.

How so? It seems pretty standard to me. MIDI originally supported 128 patches. Any keyboard with more than 128 has to add the MSB/LSB stuff for bank change, how is Nord different from anyone else here?

[Husker]

FWIW, I got this working this evening. Basically, the dialog box above in the original post is a bit misleading - you cannot simply type in the CC messages here.

 

In Sonar, for this to work, you must create an "instrument definition file" - basically a text file of midi commands, patch names, etc. It allows you some additional features when working with the instrument.

 

A pain to build, but a good learning experience.

 

Thank you all for responding.

[J. Dan]

FWIW, I got this working this evening. Basically, the dialog box above in the original post is a bit misleading - you cannot simply type in the CC messages here.

 

In Sonar, for this to work, you must create an "instrument definition file" - basically a text file of midi commands, patch names, etc. It allows you some additional features when working with the instrument.

 

A pain to build, but a good learning experience.

 

Thank you all for responding.

 

I think you can do it without the file, but I know what you're talking about. I downloaded one for the stock Kronos patches when I was trying to convert a bunch of old sequences and it made it a lot easier.

[Husker]

I wasn't able to figure it out without the definition file - for some reason, nothing is saved in the Bank Number field without the file. Definitely a Sonar (or more probable, a user) problem.

 

Once I got the hang of how the definition file works, it wasn't bad to create. Fortunately, the Nord Sound manager can dump the preset names, which saves a ton of time.

 

Actually going through the process of creating a file for the Moog now.

[Reezekeys]

This is a limitation of the midi spec, not a deficiency in Nord's implementation I think. Having to represent numbers >127 brought forth the MSB/LSB CC messages.