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Viscount Legend Live Love Letter


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Just an update in case anyone is trying to do something similar. There's a thread I tracked down here which deals with a similar issue but with the iPad version of B3-X.

 

 

Main issue seems to be the manner in which the Viscount Legend recognises CC on drawbars. The midi info in the manual is very sketchy. I've managed to get top drawbars working along with Percussion tabs, Chorus/vibrato (but it doesn't switch to correct one) and some of the Great/Swell tabs but again I can't assign them individually, Viscount seem to have assigned them the same CC???!! Bottom manual drawbars are working but they change the top manual as well.

 

Ive tried connection via the USB midi as well as the Midi OUT din sockets 1 and 2 on the Legend Live. Ive read of some people on Facebook using it without a hitch. Someone asked on IK Multimedia forum a couple of years ago but got no answer. Anyway I'll keep at it and will update if I have any success. 

Yamaha MODX8, Legend Live.
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2 hours ago, Dockeys said:

Main issue seems to be the manner in which the Viscount Legend recognizes CC on drawbars. The midi info in the manual is very sketchy. I've managed to get top drawbars working along with Percussion tabs, Chorus/vibrato (but it doesn't switch to correct one) and some of the Great/Swell tabs but again I can't assign them individually, Viscount seem to have assigned them the same CC???!! Bottom manual drawbars are working but they change the top manual as well.

 

 

I'm taking a wild guess here but before they were Viscount they were Diversi.  The original Diversi organs (DV100 model, i.e. before the KeyB models) used the Voce V5+ as the engine.  Voce's 9 main drawbars are #12-20 (just like the Viscount).  Controlling the lower drawbars were done on the next midi channel, The Voce 4 sets of drawbars were:

 

Upper manual main (B preset): CC12-20 on channel 1

Upper manual aux   (Bb preset): CC21-29 on channel 1

Lower manual main (B preset): CC12-20 on channel 2

Lower manual aux   (Bb preset): CC21-29 on channel 2

 

Not sure if Viscount changed this philosophy but its possible that you need to send 12-20 on the lower channel.  It might not work this way on the Legend series but worth giving it a shot.  Worse case scenario, write the company and ask how to control the lower drawbars via midi, see what they say.

 

57 Hammond B3; 69 Hammond L100P; 68 Leslie 122; Kurzweil Forte7 & PC3; M-Audio Code 61; Voce V5+; Neo Vent; EV ELX112P; GSI Gemini & Burn

Delaware Dave

Exit93band

 

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2 hours ago, Dockeys said:

Just an update in case anyone is trying to do something similar. There's a thread I tracked down here which deals with a similar issue but with the iPad version of B3-X.

 

 

 

Yep. That was my thread. I actually solved the issue but it required midi flow. It took a long time for me to figure it out, but I posted a screenshot of the setup, so you should be good.

 

The issue which I didn't realize, was that going through midiflow which was necessary, introduced noticable latency on my 2018 iPad. That, was unsolvable. Perhaps newer iPads or pros don't have that latency?? I'm not sure. 

 

However, a used axiom 61 for less than the cost of the B3x app is a possible solution. Obviously you would sacrifice the layout of the legend, sliders instead of drawbars, and lipped keys instead of waterfall, and the keyboard action. That being said, for rehearsal I have no problem with the axiom, just those minor ergonomics.

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1 hour ago, Delaware Dave said:

 

I'm taking a wild guess here but before they were Viscount they were Diversi.  The original Diversi organs (DV100 model, i.e. before the KeyB models) used the Voce V5+ as the engine.  Voce's 9 main drawbars are #12-20 (just like the Viscount).  Controlling the lower drawbars were done on the next midi channel, The Voce 4 sets of drawbars were:

 

Upper manual main (B preset): CC12-20 on channel 1

Upper manual aux   (Bb preset): CC21-29 on channel 1

Lower manual main (B preset): CC12-20 on channel 2

Lower manual aux   (Bb preset): CC21-29 on channel 2

 

Not sure if Viscount changed this philosophy but its possible that you need to send 12-20 on the lower channel.  It might not work this way on the Legend series but worth giving it a shot.  Worse case scenario, write the company and ask how to control the lower drawbars via midi, see what they say.

 


Thanks for the reply. I think you’re right with the CC numbers. The Legend transmits CC12-20 for drawbars 1-9 on upper manual but it doesn’t say anything about doing so on any other midi channel. It says “on section channel”. I’m just not sure how to assign midi channel to the legend? I’ll plough on though. 

IMG_0426.jpeg

Yamaha MODX8, Legend Live.
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1 hour ago, kwyn said:

Yep. That was my thread. I actually solved the issue but it required midi flow. It took a long time for me to figure it out, but I posted a screenshot of the setup, so you should be good.

 

The issue which I didn't realize, was that going through midiflow which was necessary, introduced noticable latency on my 2018 iPad. That, was unsolvable. Perhaps newer iPads or pros don't have that latency?? I'm not sure. 

 

However, a used axiom 61 for less than the cost of the B3x app is a possible solution. Obviously you would sacrifice the layout of the legend, sliders instead of drawbars, and lipped keys instead of waterfall, and the keyboard action. That being said, for rehearsal I have no problem with the axiom, just those minor ergonomics.

Hi,

 

Thanks for your reply on this. I thought I made a breakthrough when I saw your thread last night but it sent me down another rabbit hole!!  I’ll look into a midi configuration app for the Mac similar to the one you used on the iPad and see if that works. I thought for a decent two manual clone the legend would have the ability to send midi messages for the drawbars for both manuals, even one set for each manual. And it still may well be? Will keep trying but I really appreciate the response. 

Yamaha MODX8, Legend Live.
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55 minutes ago, Dockeys said:


Thanks for the reply. I think you’re right with the CC numbers. The Legend transmits CC12-20 for drawbars 1-9 on upper manual but it doesn’t say anything about doing so on any other midi channel. It says “on section channel”. I’m just not sure how to assign midi channel to the legend? I’ll plough on though. 

 

 

Assuming that you haven't touched anything midi wise on the legend it probably defaults to channel 1.  Therefore try sending CC-12-20 on channel 2 and see if your lower drawbars respond.  I think that they will.

57 Hammond B3; 69 Hammond L100P; 68 Leslie 122; Kurzweil Forte7 & PC3; M-Audio Code 61; Voce V5+; Neo Vent; EV ELX112P; GSI Gemini & Burn

Delaware Dave

Exit93band

 

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1 hour ago, Dockeys said:

Hi,

 

Thanks for your reply on this. I thought I made a breakthrough when I saw your thread last night but it sent me down another rabbit hole!!  I’ll look into a midi configuration app for the Mac similar to the one you used on the iPad and see if that works. I thought for a decent two manual clone the legend would have the ability to send midi messages for the drawbars for both manuals, even one set for each manual. And it still may well be? Will keep trying but I really appreciate the response. 

Honestly, rather than blame the legend, I blame the B3X software for not being more flexible.

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2 minutes ago, kwyn said:

Honestly, rather than blame the legend, I blame the B3X software for not being more flexible.

I was thinking the other way round as the B3X has different CC numbers for upper and lower drawbars but the legend has the same set of CC's for both manuals? 

Yamaha MODX8, Legend Live.
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20 minutes ago, Dockeys said:

I was thinking the other way round as the B3X has different CC numbers for upper and lower drawbars

BUT it doesn't let you pick different MIDI channels for the upper and lower drawbars, which is often necessary. :-(

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Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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12 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

BUT it doesn't let you pick different MIDI channels for the upper and lower drawbars, which is often necessary. 😞

The whole CC thing wrecks my head to be honest. For a language that was supposed to standardise things manufacturers still seem to some up with a version of what they think will work best.

Yamaha MODX8, Legend Live.
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47 minutes ago, Dockeys said:

I was thinking the other way round as the B3X has different CC numbers for upper and lower drawbars but the legend has the same set of CC's for both manuals? 

All B3x has to do is let you assign the lower drawbars to channel 2. Simple! But they don't. Why not?

 

So the app works with generic controllers well, like my axiom. But won't work with viscount, Nord (I'm guessing), Hammond skPro.

 

Further, and maybe not your issue,. ridiculous implementation of the software doesn't even account for the messages Hammond's Skpro sends via buttons (although it does support the older sk and xk). 

 

The only reason I use B3x is because it has my favorite Leslie emulation of any and a pretty tame high octave. I like it more than viscount, Hammond, ventilator, etc...

Hammond's Skpro emulation is really solid though. I still have a bit of trouble with the upper octave.

 

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Thanks for all the responses and help guys but I can't see the wood for the trees here. So am I right in thinking that the Legends CC's are hardwired in? So does that mean that Upper drawbar CC 12-20 are on channel 1 and Lower drawbar CC...also 12-20 but on channel 2? And then the B3X doesn't accommodate this because it assigns upper to CC 12-20 and lower to 21-29 and all on channel 1 and never the twain shall meet?

Yamaha MODX8, Legend Live.
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1 hour ago, Dockeys said:

Thanks for all the responses and help guys but I can't see the wood for the trees here. So am I right in thinking that the Legends CC's are hardwired in? So does that mean that Upper drawbar CC 12-20 are on channel 1 and Lower drawbar CC...also 12-20 but on channel 2? And then the B3X doesn't accommodate this because it assigns upper to CC 12-20 and lower to 21-29 and all on channel 1 and never the twain shall meet?

If the hypothesis above of both machines is correct then you're in Twain-ville.  My M-Audio controller can (and does with controlling the Voce) send 12-20 on channel 1 and either 12-20 on channel 2 or 21-29 on channel 1 or on channel 2. Like the SK1 where a button controls which set of drawbars (upper, lower or pedal) are controlled by the 9 drawbars my M-Audio (and my Kurz PC3) can do this.  It appears that the Legend cannot.  You could use a MIDI solutions box to do the conversion once you understand what the legend is doing, i.e. if it sends for lower drawbars 12-20 on MIDI ch2 but you need 21-29 on midi ch1 you would tell the midi solutions box that when it sees midi ch2 and CC12, convert that message to midi ch1, CC21. Repeat this 8 more times for the other drawbars. Cumbersome yes, but most likely do-able once you understand what it is sending.  If you can't change what is sent and you have limitations on what the receiver can adjust to, this is exactly what the midisolutions box was developed for.

 

https://midisolutions.com/prodepp.htm

57 Hammond B3; 69 Hammond L100P; 68 Leslie 122; Kurzweil Forte7 & PC3; M-Audio Code 61; Voce V5+; Neo Vent; EV ELX112P; GSI Gemini & Burn

Delaware Dave

Exit93band

 

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1 hour ago, Dockeys said:

So am I right in thinking that the Legends CC's are hardwired in?

Yes. Every as far as I've ever seen, every clonewheel's MIDI drawbar commands are hardwired, except for some of the ones that are designed specifically to also be MIDI controllers, and even some of them don't let you redefine what the drawbars send (e.g. Nord Stage 3 and some Hammonds). Ones that do let you alter what the sliders send include Korg Kronos, Numa Compact 2X, Roland Fantom, and Kurzweils, maybe Dexibell J7, I don't remember for sure off-hand. But never the "dedicated" clonewheels.

 

 

1 hour ago, Dockeys said:

So does that mean that Upper drawbar CC 12-20 are on channel 1 and Lower drawbar CC...also 12-20 but on channel 2? And then the B3X doesn't accommodate this because it assigns upper to CC 12-20 and lower to 21-29 and never the twain shall meet?

You're half right. When it comes to sending MIDI CCs, there are two ways that dual manuals are supported... put the Upper and Lower drawbar settings on the same MIDI channel but with different CC numerical assignments; or put them on two separate MIDI channels (the channels of the upper and lower manual keys themselves) and use the same CC numerical commands for both, just on different channels. (And then there are ones that don't use CCs at all, that's another conversation.)

 

But as for the "never the twain shall meet" part... not necessarily. B-3X, by definition, is running on an iPad or Mac/PC computer. All of those platforms have apps that will translate one MIDI command to another. That's what you need to get the twain to meet. So for example, if you're using an iPad, you can use an app like Keystage to take the "channel 2" Legend MIDI that B3X is not seeing and convert it to alternate numbers, rerouted to channel 1, and then send that "translated" MIDI on to B3X. People have used that approach to get the Roland VR09 to control B3X... the Roland doesn't even send CCs, it sends sysex, and Keystage will let you translate the Roland's sysex to the CC's you want B3X to see.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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2 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

Yes. Every as far as I've ever seen, every clonewheel's MIDI drawbar commands are hardwired, except for some of the ones that are designed specifically to also be MIDI controllers, and even some of them don't let you redefine what the drawbars send (e.g. Nord Stage 3 and some Hammonds). Ones that do let you alter what the sliders send include Korg Kronos, Numa Compact 2X, Roland Fantom, and Kurzweils, maybe Dexibell J7, I don't remember for sure off-hand. But never the "dedicated" clonewheels.

You forgot Korg CX3 (digital 2001 version)

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  • 10 months later...

New 1.9 update for legend, legend live, solo, classic and expansion version just dropped:

 

https://www.viscountinstruments.com/instrument/legend-live/#tab-vis_support

 

🔴RELEASE: 1.9 (09/05/2023) 🔴
🎶Sound improvements: 
-Rotary simulator;
-Vibrato/Chorus simulator;
-Revision of the Loudness effect simulation of the Expression Pedal;

🆕New features:
-On the Legend SOLO, the "Pedal Sustain" control has been introduced through the use of a double function of the "Percussion Volume" potentiometer. 

Bug Fixed: 
- The set value of the "Tone Control" parameter is not saved with the "Save Panel" function; 
-"Spring" reverb set in "Pre" mode is not saved correctly with the "Save Panel" function; 
-Incorrect operation of the Sustain Pedal received from MIDI if the same note is played from MIDI and from the keyboard;
-In some circumstances and with specific clones, some clicks can be heard; 
-The Analog In signal, in Post FX mode, is not sent on the 11 pin connector.

 

 

 

Yamaha MODX8, Legend Live.
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Reports from a brother member indicated that the change to the  C/V was subtle and that although the leslie sim was improved he still prefers the sound of the Vent and will continue to use the Vent.  Also, havent heard anyone say "wow" about the update in general.

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57 Hammond B3; 69 Hammond L100P; 68 Leslie 122; Kurzweil Forte7 & PC3; M-Audio Code 61; Voce V5+; Neo Vent; EV ELX112P; GSI Gemini & Burn

Delaware Dave

Exit93band

 

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I haven’t had a chance to update yet. I’m on Mac and you need to do a workaround and install software to run an .exe file if I remember.
 

Anyway once I get it updated I’ll report back although if the C/V is as subtle as you mention I may not even notice it. Still loving it as a board though. Happy enough without a vent. 

Yamaha MODX8, Legend Live.
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For those interested I updated my legend live yesterday and played with the new settings. For me there’s definitely an improvement in the Leslie. It’ll never beat the real thing and I actually thought the previous version was fine for live use. 
 

I actually hear a change in the C/V most of all. I didn’t think I’d have the ears to hear this, especially as I read with interest a lot of the organists on here talk passionately about this part of the organ and sometimes I can’t hear what they hear. Anyway to me C3 is nice and shimmery. I think it’s a nice update and generous considering it’s a few years old and the launch of the recent model. Nice work Viscount! 

Yamaha MODX8, Legend Live.
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