Billy Joel recent interview excerpt / songwriting

[AnotherScott]

"I don't know what Billy Joel really sounds like"... I guess you can say the same thing about The Beatles. Listen to how their music and sound changed from album to album.

I already mentioned Bowie. Jethro Tull is another. Then there are the artists that didn't change as frequently, but notably had success with more than one style... Bee Gees and Genesis come to mind.

 

Knocking Billy Joel's songwriting and performance from people on the list who have not even contributed 10% of the great music that Billy has is really shocking to me.

Not really relevant. I don't have to have made a great film--or any film at all--to feel perfectly justified in saying the Phantom Menace sucked.

 

(Though in case you've lost track, I'm not a BJ basher, I like a lot of his stuff. And there's a bunch I don't. It would be interesting to find out how much my assessment of his strong and weak songs matches his own, though!)

[AnotherScott]

If you don't like a meal, it's not because you think you can do better. It's because it's just not for you, that's all.

Bingo.

 

Having said that: A huge difference between NY and CA is how folks treat opinions.

Good observation. I've run into something similar. In New York, if you finish someone else's sentence, it's kind of almost a bonding thing, it shows empathy, that you really understand where the other person is coming from. In other parts of the country, it can come off as rude, that you're interrupting, or being presumptuous, or somehow devaluing what it is they were about to say.

[MathOfInsects]

Good observation. I've run into something similar. In New York, if you finish someone else's sentence, it's kind of almost a bonding thing, it shows empathy, that you really understand where the other person is coming from. In other parts of the country, it can come off as rude, that you're interrupting, or being presumptuous, or somehow devaluing what it is they were about to say.

 

YES. Great one. And the teasing thing, too, now that I think of it: In NY, teasing means you like someone, and if someone won't tease you, then you know you're in trouble. Out here...opposite. Teasing is mean, and people get too personal when they try it.

[ElmerJFudd]

I wonder about the "ball busting" thing. I grew up in the greater NYC area with Irish, Italian, Dutch, German, Polish, Russian, etc. immigrants. Family of 3 brothers and a sister. Getting and giving as tough as you can handle is a right of passage devoid of PC filters. Flies like a lead balloon in print - you have to see the smile or wink and laughter to know you're both the subject of the joke and an active participant welcome to give it back twice as hard. And I agree, travel to more polite or "hospitable" parts of the country and they don't join in or appreciate the game. I'm not condoning the game, just acknowledging it exists and for some a totally acceptable part of life, adulthood, manhood - even woman hood, my sister is tough as nails.

[MathOfInsects]

I can certainly relate to all this. It's related to the opinion thing, too: the first insult is an invitation for you to respond with a better one, and then you're off to the races.

 

I remember reading that one theory about why "The Dozens" has never quite broken through to (aka been coopted by) "white America" is that people who haven't grown up with it miss the nuance: it's about how well-crafted the insult is, not about whether you can destroy the other person by any means possible. It's the same with Northeast-style teasing, IMO. People who didn't grow up with it end up being mean without being clever--or else they hear any teasing as mean.

 

For example: if your mother dies, "Haha, your mother died yesterday and now she's dead" is mean without being clever. HOWEVER: "Now who are you going to bring to the prom?" is a solid burn and fair game. With any luck, you'll say, "I'm good, your grandma's still alive" and the cycle will be complete.

 

Hard to describe if you didn't grow up with it...

[ElmerJFudd]

^^^ good one!

[Outkaster]

I wonder about the "ball busting" thing. I grew up in the greater NYC area with Irish, Italian, Dutch, German, Polish, Russian, etc. immigrants. Family of 3 brothers and a sister. Getting and giving as tough as you can handle is a right of passage devoid of PC filters. Flies like a lead balloon in print - you have to see the smile or wink and laughter to know you're both the subject of the joke and an active participant welcome to give it back twice as hard. And I agree, travel to more polite or "hospitable" parts of the country and they don't join in or appreciate the game. I'm not condoning the game, just acknowledging it exists and for some a totally acceptable part of life, adulthood, manhood - even woman hood, my sister is tough as nails.

 

That's just it, it's also a tri-state thing. People don't get it and it comes out of immigrant culture really that other parts of the country didn't have also from the research I have seen. The women are tough also. Ever date a tough Italian chick from Arthur Ave in the Bronx???

[BluMunk]

I agree with all the things people have said, both what they love about Billy Joel and what they hate.

 

Like many, Billy Joel was my first real taste of pianist-as-rock star/bandleader (though to be fair, Born to Run was a favorite album even as a child, and is as piano-driven as anything), and all through my teens he was in heavy rotation.

 

My interest dropped because his lyrics and subject matter are often juvenile/simplistic, and don't hold a lot of depth or complexity. 'Precious' might be an appropriate adjective; big important dressing for basically mundane subject matter.

 

But, that simplicity is/can be kind of charming as well. He's just this guy from the neighborhood, you know? Doesn't think too deeply, but feels strongly (commenting on his songwriting, not Joel the person). There's something safe and accessible, and communal about it.

 

If Springsteen is the prophet who puts a voice to the hopes and fears American working class that they didn't even know they felt until they heard their hearts echoed in his music, Joel is the neighborhood troubadour who takes the things people already know how to express and puts them into song.

 

He's the buddy at the bar you meet after work, who listens to you talk about your job, your boss, your wife, your girlfriend, whatever, and then, without trying to solve your problem, or get political, or analyze your deeper anxieties or issues, just downs a beer and says, "man, I hear you."

 

There's a lot of value in that.

[AnotherScott]

Interesting observations, Blu. Honestly, I haven't paid much attention to the lyrics, so my opinions are pretty much from the musical side of things. But that's nothing specific to BJ, I'm just generally somewhat lyric-oblivious. I'll have heard a song for 20 years and then suddenly think, "oh! THAT's what the song's about!" Maybe it comes from having grown up with so much prog where no one knew what the heck the songs were about...

[Outkaster]

I agree with all the things people have said, both what they love about Billy Joel and what they hate.

 

Like many, Billy Joel was my first real taste of pianist-as-rock star/bandleader (though to be fair, Born to Run was a favorite album even as a child, and is as piano-driven as anything), and all through my teens he was in heavy rotation.

 

My interest dropped because his lyrics and subject matter are often juvenile/simplistic, and don't hold a lot of depth or complexity. 'Precious' might be an appropriate adjective; big important dressing for basically mundane subject matter.

 

But, that simplicity is/can be kind of charming as well. He's just this guy from the neighborhood, you know? Doesn't think too deeply, but feels strongly (commenting on his songwriting, not Joel the person). There's something safe and accessible, and communal about it.

 

If Springsteen is the prophet who puts a voice to the hopes and fears American working class that they didn't even know they felt until they heard their hearts echoed in his music, Joel is the neighborhood troubadour who takes the things people already know how to express and puts them into song.

 

He's the buddy at the bar you meet after work, who listens to you talk about your job, your boss, your wife, your girlfriend, whatever, and then, without trying to solve your problem, or get political, or analyze your deeper anxieties or issues, just downs a beer and says, "man, I hear you."

 

There's a lot of value in that.

Also it's a lot of reflection of the north east in general in his and Bruce's music.

[MathOfInsects]

Also it's a lot of reflection of the north east in general in his and Bruce's music.

 

Totally. I got reminded of that the last time I landed in New York and "Captain Jack" was on the radio (or whatever) in the airport, and I noticed it was the first time I'd heard a Billy Joel song on the radio in years, since I'd been living in California. Interesting that even as a superstar, artist popularity can vary by region.

[MathOfInsects]

Interesting observations, Blu. Honestly, I haven't paid much attention to the lyrics, so my opinions are pretty much from the musical side of things. But that's nothing specific to BJ, I'm just generally somewhat lyric-oblivious. I'll have heard a song for 20 years and then suddenly think, "oh! THAT's what the song's about!" Maybe it comes from having grown up with so much prog where no one knew what the heck the songs were about...

 

I'm exactly the same way. Song titles, too. I play with one group where the bandleader sometimes sends a special set-list with notes after the title that say, "The one that starts with hits on G," "The one we messed up the middle of on the TV show" etc., just for me. It's not meant to be pass-aggro, it's literally meant as a teaching aide for the learning disabled.

[richforman]

My critiques of Billy's lyrics aren't with their being juvenile or simplistic, rather, it's with the mechanics of them, there are just a number of lines that have always jumped out at me as sloppy or lazy, (unintentionally) nonsensical or ungrammatical or not quite what I think he was going for, just not good word choices/arrangements imvho.

[MathOfInsects]

Uptown girl

You know I can't afford to buy her pearls

But maybe someday when my ship comes in

She'll understand what kind of guy I've been

And then I'll win

[Theo Verelst]

Without "getting it" why people would have to go full out psycho over a famous song writer, I like the explanation along the lines of the familiar concept that BJ is considered to borrow inspiration for song styles from the Beatles and so on. Kind of fun. Intellectually my personal feeling is he can be fresh air on an oppressed day, and probably has very good reasons of his own for doing what he does.

 

T.

[AnotherScott]

Uptown girl

You know I can't afford to buy her pearls

But maybe someday when my ship comes in

She'll understand what kind of guy I've been

And then I'll win

I've listened to Pete Sinfield/Greg Lake. Your rhymes can't hurt me.

[mate stubb]

I'm getting a heart attack-ack-ack-ack-ack-ack

[HammondDave]

My critiques of Billy's lyrics aren't with their being juvenile or simplistic, rather, it's with the mechanics of them, there are just a number of lines that have always jumped out at me as sloppy or lazy, (unintentionally) nonsensical or ungrammatical or not quite what I think he was going for, just not good word choices/arrangements imvho.

 

How about Vienna... Summer Highland Falls... She's Right on Time, I've Loved These Days...?

[Outkaster]

Summer Highland Falls is a sad song. Kind of a tricky piano part in the key of F.

[richforman]

It's probably just me, but "the graduations hang on the wall" makes no sense. "Brenda and Eddie were still goin' steady in the summer of '75...Brenda and Eddie had had it already BY the summer of '75." Makes no sense at all! "Yourmamatoldyouthonlythingagagetyou" atrocious unnecessary shoehorning! - amounting to an annoying/cutesy novelty effect. (The line should have and could have been just - "Your mama told you all that I could get you," that would fit and scan perfectly, and say the exact same thing he was trying to say, simply and understandably.) "Found out a man ain't just being macho." Just rubs me the wrong way, doesn't really make sense, we understand what he was trying to say but that doesn't seem to be the way to say it, for a native English speaker. It's not a crime or anything, I just find he sometimes lacks the ability to put words together well, or more likely, just gets lazy and settles too soon when a better solution might have been just around the corner. Some of his other lyrics are fine and in plenty of cases pretty good but I've just always heard some clunkers that collectively bug me. ("Vienna" should have been included on my list of favorites earlier in the thread, great song.) "When I pressed her for a reason, she refused to *leave?* an answer." Just awkward, for a song that I would imagine is intended to have serious, high-quality lyrics, that's not one, sounds like a forced attempt at a rhyme and it still doesn't rhyme. ("Leave an answer" again doesn't sound like something an English speaker would say, and again - it still doesn't rhyme!) Don't mean to start an argument, I know it's just me being nit-picky and Billy Joel is a great renowned artist and I'm a nobody, but these are some of the reasons I say he's not a great lyricist, again only in my humble and strictly minority opinion.

[David R]

I think the lyric in The Stranger is actually "When I pressed her for a reason, she refused to even answer" which makes much more sense.

 

I return to his music for sentimental reasons - 52nd Street is undoubtedly the catalyst for me being a piano player, and I'm sure hearing Freddie Hubbard's solo on "Zanzibar" rewired my toddler brain in a profound manner. I agree that some of his lyrics leave a bit to be desired, but when he was on he was on - "Summer Highland Falls," "Vienna," "I've Loved These Days".

[richforman]

If that's so I'm 100% wrong on that one and that is a perfectly fine line!! You're probably right David and I was hearing it wrong, but I am going to check it out!

[AnotherScott]

It's probably just me, but "the graduations hang on the wall" makes no sense.

Well okay, it's the symbols of the graduations that hang on the wall (the diplomas). It doesn't bother me, but sure, he could have said "beige diplomas" or something like that.

 

 

[EscapeRocks]

I guess I have never analyzed nor nit picked his music like this when I listened to it .

 

I just like the tunes, and that's good enough for me.

[richforman]

And I'm hypocritical about it because I give a total pass for lots of bad or nonsense lyrics to my favorite rock artist/songwriter, Paul McCartney. But I think he admits to and embraces the nonsensicalness of his worst offenses, laughs it off, and admits that he often just goes for the sound of the words and can't answer what they mean. In Billy's case, I think he intends and presents his lyrics as meaning to be serious, intentional and well-crafted, in the tradition of "legitimate," literate pop songwriting.

[MathOfInsects]

FWIW, I quite like the "graduations hang on the wall" line. I think it's excellent figurative writing and really captures the disillusionment in that song. But I see where you're coming from.

 

I think "and so it goes/and so it goes/and so will you soon I suppose" has a McCaretneyesque economy to it that I like.

 

I totally agree that the summer of 75 was a weird one for Brenda and Eddie. I remember noticing this and being like, "Oh, c'mon, Billy. At least change the season to later in the year." Even "December of 75" would have worked better (and sounded good), though how they got the apartment with the carpet and the couple of kids in that time, is a different story.

 

I think some artists benefit from further examination, and some fall apart. In my mind, the Beatles only grow more impressive the harder you look at their songs. Every new look reveals some other new aspect that was indisputably there, just waiting for you to find it. Prince is like that too. Deep brilliance wrapped in glossy pop veneer.

 

For me, Billy Joel "fell apart" when I looked deeper. In my case it all happened because of whatever live album came out when I was still listening to him. All that hollering and no grooves anywhere. I stopped "believing" him and I couldn't listen to the songs the same anymore. They started to make me wince.

 

A friend of mine showed me a comedian who does an impression of Louis CK. Louis CK is one of the premier comedians of our time. And yet, after seeing this impression, I've had a harder time liking him as much, because it revealed the "trick," the mechanism CK uses to make things sound funny. He's still the guy I quote the most, particularly when talking about divorce stuff. But...his routine has started to feel like a trick to me.

 

Similar with Billy Joel. I truly believe he is talented, and no doubt he has created a fair number of "catalog" songs. I just stopped finding soul in his material, and I think once you stop believing in his songs wholesale, they end up flimsy enough that they fall apart for you.

 

This takes NOTHING from those who still like him. It's just me reading between the lines of the five or six "I used to like him but I moved on" posters in this thread (of which I am one).

 

 

[mate stubb]

Still can't get past ack-ack-ack-ack.

 

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/aliens/images/5/55/Mars_attacks.jpg

[AnotherScott]

FWIW, I quite like the "graduations hang on the wall" line. I think it's excellent figurative writing and really captures the disillusionment in that song.

Actually I agree. By being less literal, I think it better communicates "useless accomplishments."

 

it all happened because of whatever live album came out when I was still listening to him. All that hollering and no grooves anywhere. I stopped "believing" him and I couldn't listen to the songs the same anymore.

Maybe it had to do with how many years he'd been playing those songs by then, or the size of the venues he was playing in, or what was going on in his life, or who knows what... but if you gave up by then, give a listen to "The Bridge" -- I think that album is pretty soulful, in his way.

[MathOfInsects]

I think I've heard all his records. That's the one with Jeff Lynne, correct? I don't specifically remember what's on that one, but I think it's the one where's he's walking around Greenwich Village in a pseudo-jazz tune. I liked that song.

 

I should clarify: I've seen BJ in concert probably 5 times over the years. I liked the mid-career one pretty well. Later ones all left me thinking, "1) These are fantastic players, and 2) what time is this over?"

 

Again, it's just me. Obviously, he's very popular, and probably particularly so on this board. He had his time and place, but didn't age well (for me).

 

 

[BigJPatton]

I like the man more than the music, his Howard Stern interview is a classic. Being a LI'er I grew up with Joel and had all his albums as a kid, but it didn't grow on me well, I started to really dislike his style as I aged and that hasn't changed.

 

But I do know he's one of the greats and the few songs of his that I do like amount to a lot more than most pop artists.