whitefang Posted May 1, 2017 Share Posted May 1, 2017 I think maybe the question asked by OP JuJu attempted to discover what qualities DEFINE what R&R is. Like, maybe you hear a song and then proclaim, "THAT'S a good ROCK and ROLL tune!" And he wants to know WHAT about that tune MAKES it a Rock'n'Roll song, and NOT just a simple "pop" tune? Instrumentation? Tempo? Construction? Volume? Subject matter? WHAT? Whitefang I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larryz Posted May 1, 2017 Share Posted May 1, 2017 RIP Paul O'Neill. Sorry to hear this sad news. It looks like the Trans-Siberian Orchestra's last tour date was Nov 2016. I am so glad I got to see them live...they bridged the gap between Rock and Classical and they were magical. Their Christmas shows were always sold out every year... Take care, Larryz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d halfnote Posted May 1, 2017 Share Posted May 1, 2017 To step around the blockage of those who just wanna chatter abt stuff they don't really address. What is R&R ? The answer might be remaking the musical landscape for a modern age/edge. That addresses all qualities by empirical definement. The Beatles open their 1st USA tour with a defining tribute [video:youtube] Then 5 yrs later come back so John Lennon can reforge the music of his youth ("Stand By Me", etc) into music for the more modern age. [video:youtube] d=halfnote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larryz Posted May 1, 2017 Share Posted May 1, 2017 https://www.britannica.com/art/rock-and-roll-early-style-of-rock-music <---here you go JuJu, this guy concurs with my historical rendition. I know you will pursue the history of rock and roll well beyond Jeff Beck's Bolero that nobody cared to chatter about or wanted to step around...Looks like Elvis is still numero Uno [no debate intended] LOL!...My TSO contribution is another example of how rock and roll just morphed into rock (which was your original concern)...There is a ton of stuff in the R&R HOF, (including Rap that is not my cup of tea, but you can't read that on the latest Rap thread, as we can't give our opinion on that genre even though videos are being posted for our comments). Rap does not qualify in the R&R HOF IMHO, even though many people love and admire the art... You did not read this here LOL! Hopefully since this is not an endless amount of YouTube clips that another likes to post ad nauseam, each of which you can't call up in China, you will be able to call up my link and see why my comments are +1! Take care, Larryz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitefang Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 That "remaking the musical landscape" statement would actually fit ALL genres of music. Not just rock'n'roll, as ALL, rock, jazz, classical etc., are constantly changing, growing and otherwise evolving. As for RAP, I'm not sure it would exist today if rock'n'roll never did. After R&R kicked open the gate, it never got closed again, so ANYTHING was able to get to the people's ears. Whitefang I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winston Psmith Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 That "remaking the musical landscape" statement would actually fit ALL genres of music. Not just rock'n'roll, as ALL, rock, jazz, classical etc., are constantly changing, growing and otherwise evolving. As for RAP, I'm not sure it would exist today if rock'n'roll never did. After R&R kicked open the gate, it never got closed again, so ANYTHING was able to get to the people's ears. Whitefang IMHO, Rap is the lineal descendant of a cappella Doo-Wop music, admittedly, without the emphasis on vocal harmonies. Nonetheless, like Doo-Wop, Rap can be performed by a vocalist, or vocalists, without instrumental accompaniment, and both are the product of urban environments. Not saying they're the same thing, by any means, but they're certainly related, however distantly. As an Electronic Musician, I have to give much respect to the early Rappers, for diving deep into Sampling, Looping and Beat Programming. The Akai MPC was their studio tool of choice . . . "Monsters are real, and Ghosts are real too. They live inside us, and sometimes, they win." Stephen King http://www.novparolo.com https://thewinstonpsmithproject.bandcamp.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larryz Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 Is the Rock&Roll hall of fame redefining Rock&Roll. Nothing against any of the inductees, but not all of the are what I consider R&R. Is Rap R&R, is Folk R&R? I don't know, so please help me out. JuJu's question isn't really about What Is Rock and Roll? it's more about what isn't. Two examples she gave of what isn't R&R are Rap and Folk... For Rap and Folk, I would refer people back to Bob Dylan's Subterranean Homesick Blues. This is a tune played on all rock and roll stations that introduced Rap to the world IMHO. I'm sure there were countless talking tunes before that song came out, but it was Rap IMHO. We just didn't have a name for it LOL! I think Rap works best with music behind it. You can hear it in Mexican music, Country Music, East Indian, etc., all over the world as it really caught on...+1 Rock and Roll got many genres to let their hair down and violate the musical rules and probably opened the doors for Rap too! Take care, Larryz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuJu Kwan Posted May 2, 2017 Author Share Posted May 2, 2017 Thanks everyone, once again, for the response to my question. When I came here I thought that Rock and Roll was basically The Beatles and The Rolling Stones. I maybe able answer my own question. As a female I was quickly drawn to Bonnie Raitt when I arrived in the USA. I think her music encompasses R&R, Blues, Folk, Country, Pop, and maybe a little Jazz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larryz Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 +1 on Bonnie Raitt...she's one of the greats IMHO and a R&R Hall of Famer! Take care, Larryz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d halfnote Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 https://www.britannica.com/art/rock-and-roll-early-style-of-rock-music <---here you go JuJu, this guy concurs with my historical rendition. I know you will pursue the history of rock and roll well beyond Jeff Beck's Bolero that nobody cared to chatter about or wanted to step around... Once again, yer, I dunno, paranoia or whatever, is taking you onto yerself comments that are abt another [maybe you should watch with whom you associate yerself :idk ] As for the other stuff you posted, that's getting kinda on yer own shoes, esp tying in other threads 'n'all that [see how I tied in R'n'R there ?] d=halfnote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d halfnote Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 Thanks everyone, once again, for the response to my question. When I came here I thought that Rock and Roll was basically The Beatles and The Rolling Stones. I maybe able answer my own question. As a female I was quickly drawn to Bonnie Raitt when I arrived in the USA. I think her music encompasses R&R, Blues, Folk, Country, Pop, and maybe a little Jazz. That's right...................... b/c rock & roll's a spirit, not an attitude nor a style nor a drumbeat nor any other quantifiable quality. It's the spirit of youth or newness overtaking what's old. d=halfnote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d halfnote Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 Is the Rock&Roll hall of fame redefining Rock&Roll. Nothing against any of the inductees, but not all of the are what I consider R&R. Is Rap R&R, is Folk R&R? I don't know, so please help me out. As far as the R&R HOF is concerned, whatever gets you to pay the admission fee to view the exhibits, and encourages you to buy a bunch of RRHOF branded merchandise, that's Rock & Roll. Maybe but more like proprganda than complete truth d=halfnote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larryz Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 https://www.britannica.com/art/rock-and-roll-early-style-of-rock-music <---here you go JuJu, this guy concurs with my historical rendition. I know you will pursue the history of rock and roll well beyond Jeff Beck's Bolero that nobody cared to chatter about or wanted to step around... Once again, yer, I dunno, paranoia or whatever, is taking you onto yerself comments that are abt another [maybe you should watch with whom you associate yerself :idk ] As for the other stuff you posted, that's getting kinda on yer own shoes, esp tying in other threads 'n'all that [see how I tied in R'n'R there ?] Yes there was a bit of a tie in to your Rap thread D, which I credited, there is also a bit of a Elvis vs Chuck hint in there too (just to get your attention LOL!) One of the things I was wanting to get across to you on JuJu's thread was that she has said in the past she can't access YouTube in China, so for her, the YT clips don't help. The other thing about this and other threads that you and I want to draw us back to the OP (which is a good thing!) But, that isn't the concern here IMHO. It's not "What is R&R?" so much as it is a topic on Rap, Folk and other genres that don't sound like R&R, getting into the HOF. When I make a comment and you follow it up with wanting to "get around the blockage" on the next post, I felt it was directed to my ability to go OT LOL! For which I am truly guilty now and then, but then again, we all are guilty of that now and then. It's really not paranoia...I was following up on others when it came to Classical music in the discussion. One of my points that can be seen in the link to the article I posted, was that rock and roll just dropped the roll and it all became known (i.e. morphed) simply as Rock...and anything goes like Bolero and TSO for instance... Take care, Larryz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d halfnote Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 Naw, yer just draggin' crap from one place to another b/c y' seem to have a chip on yer shoulder, which is starting to look more'n'more [R'R ] like someone y'don't wanna be. We're all worse for it. AS said in a PM, ya don't seem to have any idea that comments are abt anyone but you. That's not my prob. d=halfnote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larryz Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 I remember you quoting me D, and then another sentence under it that was supposed to be directed at some one else. That's the only reason I thought you were aiming it at me. This time your post with regard to the "blockage to step around" right after my post lead me in that same direction. It is not a reoccurring theme. There is no chip on my shoulder and to quote Popeye "I am what I am and that's all that I am"...but I appreciate your PM where we can hash things out and not involve the forum anytime you wish... Take care, Larryz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d halfnote Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 Yeah, but y'took it as a comment on you even though there was clear content that referred to someone else. TYhen ya hadda drag it into things that were personal. How small's yer world ? d=halfnote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d halfnote Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 Here's a 101 on what's what re: R&R Ain't an attitude but a spirit Ain't a sound Thia isn't R&R [video:youtube] Thia is [video:youtube] It's not a song This ain't R&R [video:youtube] This is [video:youtube] It's not an artist This is not R&R [video:youtube] This is [video:youtube] It's not a drumbeat This is not R&R [video:youtube] But this, couterintuitively, IS [video:youtube] It's not a style This is not R&R [video:youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--AvCsh48bk This is [video:youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w05ADkFwBpA It's not an electric gtr This ain't R&R [video:youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIJkGUBy77U This is [video:youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPp-KCrmBkU It's a spirit. Ya got it & get it or ya don't. d=halfnote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitefang Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 As we're ALL entitled to our OWN opinions, we have to both expect AND accept that others will likely disagree with them. Like I do with most of your "proclamations" over each of your clips in yet ANOTHER plethora of YT clips you somehow feel "say it all". I tried to warn you(and based on personal experience) that complaining about threads getting "derailed" and wandering off in many directions is an excersize in futility. I tried that a lot before and got so much "backlash" that I wound up getting "Whiplash"! So I scaled it back to near elimination. It helps to realize that while in some areas, some here might have more KNOWLEDGE about some particular things, NObody here has more AUTHORITY than anyone else. Except maybe the moderators. Whitefang I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larryz Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 Yeah, but y'took it as a comment on you even though there was clear content that referred to someone else. TYhen ya hadda drag it into things that were personal. How small's yer world ? Not small enough and that's a good thing as JuJu can't call up all those videos in China to see what your answers are...it's nice to have some freedom to do so over here in my little world. I don't recall anything I said getting personal, but you can PM me at anytime so we can get off of this thread, or at least I can...my apologies to JuJu as I don't want to be a part of disrupting this thread any further. Take care, Larryz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Fraser Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 I just read an interesting interview with Marc Ribot wherein he states that rock brought the blues back to what had become a very glossy, fake, Broadway-based version of popular music in the 50's. It's probably overly simplistic as a description, but it's also a very useful starting point. Having lived through that period I know exactly what Ribot means, & I'm afraid Juju won't, but perhaps listening to some Bobby Darin might give Juju a sense of what rock was rebelling against. Scott Fraser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Iverson Posted May 4, 2017 Share Posted May 4, 2017 Rock music has ALWAYS been about rebellion..... sometimes for good reason (such as fake glossy entertainment) and sometimes just adolescent macho or whatever, the "rebel without a cause" syndrome. I'm almost 64 (McCartney doubtless wrote that song about ME... LOL) and I still rebel against pronouncements from on high that make no sense... but have come to realize that some of the things that I don't understand, it's because the other person knows more than I do.... So how does this relate to music? Just that neither rebellion or obedience to musical norms should be mindless.. don't throw out the baby with the bathwater, to quote the cliche. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harvey Posted May 4, 2017 Share Posted May 4, 2017 I just read an interesting interview with Marc Ribot wherein he states that rock brought the blues back to what had become a very glossy, fake, Broadway-based version of popular music in the 50's. It's probably overly simplistic as a description, but it's also a very useful starting point. Having lived through that period I know exactly what Ribot means, & I'm afraid Juju won't, but perhaps listening to some Bobby Darin might give Juju a sense of what rock was rebelling against. Winston Psmith; IMHO, Rap is the lineal descendant of a cappella Doo-Wop music, admittedly, without the emphasis on vocal harmonies. Nonetheless, like Doo-Wop, Rap can be performed by a vocalist, or vocalists, without instrumental accompaniment, and both are the product of urban environments. Not saying they're the same thing, by any means, but they're certainly related, however distantly. As an Electronic Musician, I have to give much respect to the early Rappers, for diving deep into Sampling, Looping and Beat Programming. The Akai MPC was their studio tool of choice . . . Both very astute comments! Guitar Speak Podcast www.guitarspeakpodcast.libsyn.com https://www.facebook.com/guitarspeakpodcast www.itunes.apple.com/au/podcast/guitar-speak-podcast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitefang Posted May 4, 2017 Share Posted May 4, 2017 I usually always saw rock'n'roll as a "rebellion" against the LIMITATIONS put on popular music by those who had what they felt was ultimate authority. You know, label suits who thought THEY had to SHOW youth what they SHOULD listen to and NOT provide what they WANTED. This sounds simplistic too, but the movie "Back To The Future" kind of drove the point home when main character Marty McFly lands in 1955 and passes a record shop with a speaker pouring out "The #1 HIT" MR. SANDMAN by The Chordettes. But it did make a point. Popular music and what America's youth were listening to BEFORE rock'n'roll caught their ears WAS pretty much homogenized, milquetoast and "whitebread". The big music "stars" young people of the day followed were PATTI PAGE, PERRY COMO and the like. And the only African-America artists that were acceptable to WHITE America anyway, were NAT "KING" COLE and The Ink Spots. Sure, many "Doo-Wop" groups and R&B singers existed at the time, but their output was limited to exposure on radio stations that mostly just catered to "their kind" with music suits and parents prohibiting any "Jungle Jive" from reaching their children's ears. Something HAD to give, and rock'n'roll paved that road. In her song about those times, "In France They Kiss On Mainstreet" Joni Mitchell sings, "In the war of independence rock'n'roll rang sweet as victory." RAP and a connect with a cappella Doo-Wop? Yeah, I can see that. And that Doo-Wop IS one of rock'n'roll's ingredients, and I always did claim that Rap wouldn't be where it got to if NOT for rock'n'roll paving the way, so it's all OK. I do have to say however, that while it isn't my "cuppa", I have always admired rappers' abilty to do what they do with the SPEED with which they do it. Personally, whenever I try to talk faster than my normal rate, I wind up sounding like PORKY PIG! So, I give them "props". Whitefang I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d halfnote Posted May 5, 2017 Share Posted May 5, 2017 Yeah, everybody IS entitled to their OPINIONS & their own STYLE. Or LACK thereof. However SOME opinions are BETTER conceived & SUPPORTED than others. The ya got THEM that just wanna CHATTER ON without SAY'N' anything they didn't read, uh, SOMEWHERE. ------------------------------------- This is a well-written, well-produced, well-performed song but, well, it's not R&R [video:youtube] This is [video:youtube] & This Is Where That Performance likely derived it's inspiration https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jgHOcXTr50 [video:youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jgHOcXTr50 Now this leads us to an interesting point. R&R largely derives from R&R but there's also a great deal of, largely unrecognized, jazz in there, as well as gospel. in one way R&R is a type of jazz but w/ the facile subtleties deliberately blunted into a more angular sound. How can R&R be a type of gospel jazz ? Dig ! You can tell it's R&R b/c there's a sax ! There's also a surprise intro---don't miss it ! [video:youtube] d=halfnote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitefang Posted May 6, 2017 Share Posted May 6, 2017 "R&R largely derives from R&R"? I'm guessing you hit the wrong key. Meaning to state, "R&R largely derived from R&B". But we got what you meant anyway. But also realize..... What IS or ISN'T rock'n'roll isn't for ANY ONE PERSON to postulate. Except maybe to hold as a PERSONAL belief. And I'd say The Bee Gee's "To Love Somebody" deserves r'n'r status as much as Ritchie Valens' "Donna" or Presley's "Are You Lonesome Tonight". Not ALL rock'n'roll tunes have to be "full speed" and frenetic. Or LOUD as far as that goes. That would leave out 90% of Roy Orbison if that were true! Whitefang I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Fraser Posted May 6, 2017 Share Posted May 6, 2017 I'm guessing you hit the wrong key. Meaning to state, "R&R largely derived from R&B". But we got what you meant anyway. Whitefang Which all ultimately leads back to the blues. Scott Fraser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d halfnote Posted May 6, 2017 Share Posted May 6, 2017 That's some spiralin' DNA helix yer referring to there, Scott ! & it's also a great concept abt the circular circulatin' nature of music ! ...goes in here, round & round, & comes out here... It also leads back to the fact (& it IS a FACK, Jack) that Professor Fred McDowell's "who's never get it" theory still holds true: some just don't/can't, mebbe. This is the aftermaath of a R&R party https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9Np5hkvW6I [video:youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9Np5hkvW6I Guess what ? So's THIS ! https://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2853859/Re_What_is_Rock_Roll#Post285389 d=halfnote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d halfnote Posted May 6, 2017 Share Posted May 6, 2017 One thing abt R&R is riding trends... Thia is R&R https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqdW97P-Q8A [video:youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqdW97P-Q8A This is not [video:youtube] Don't ride R&R into the ground. d=halfnote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitefang Posted May 6, 2017 Share Posted May 6, 2017 This professor Fred McDowell you keep mentioning.... Is he the Fred McDowell who was the research scientist of the Dept. of Geological sciences at the University of Texas? Or the Fred McDowell who was a professor of British and American literature at the University of Iowa? 'Cause when I google "Professor Fred McDowell" that's the only two "professors" I come up with. Unless you're referring to "Mississippi" Fred McDowell, which then of course brings us back to the blues. WHY do you keep refusing to QUALIFY this? Whitefang I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d halfnote Posted May 7, 2017 Share Posted May 7, 2017 "Who's NEVER get IT ?" Well, tha don't apply to Lloyd Price [video:youtube] Even this cat got it [video:youtube] d=halfnote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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