Larryz Posted April 16, 2017 Share Posted April 16, 2017 It has come up before on the forum that the old AM radio rock and roll stations played a ton of songs that were really not rock and roll. Mack The Knife is an example (which is a song I really grew up liking). Along with some country, blues, jazz standard tunes, pop, etc. Us kids (always liked my aunts using that expression when they talked about the old days) got introduced to a lot of variety in music when trying to listen to our rock and roll. These days I refer to my material as being versatile...hopefully I'll play something for everyone in the audience when I play solo. [MY] newest song is from 1995 LOL! Take care, Larryz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Fraser Posted April 16, 2017 Share Posted April 16, 2017 Interestingly, when I first became aware of pop music, via Top 40 radio, was around 1960, when I was 8. In LA radio, at that time, Elvis was considered an Oldie But Goodie, not really current, but Chuck's tunes were still being played, as current records. So I was a little too late to the party to have Elvis as an influence, but Chuck, being a guitarist especially, was very much a part of my music formation. Scott Fraser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitefang Posted April 17, 2017 Share Posted April 17, 2017 I also some time ago, started a discussion on the many ways the word "rock" and term "rock star" was(and still IS) being used. Celebrity chef ANN BURRELL wrote a book titled, "Cook Like A Rock Star!". Which really didn't have ANYTHING to do with how actual Rock Stars cooked. Or other uses of the word, as in, "Man, he really ROCKS that shirt!" and such. So, "Rock" is not only the label of a music genre, it's also become both a verb AND an adjective. So now, anyone who's at the top of their particular field is sometimes referred to as a "Rock Star", and anyone who does ANYTHING particularily well is known to "Rock" it. Which to me indicates that the MUSIC the term is borrowed from is something special. Whitefang I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitefang Posted April 19, 2017 Share Posted April 19, 2017 I hope, after all this, that JuJu takes away some insight as to what rock'n'roll is. There's only one other example that I can add that may or may not help..... I was watching the movie "LA BAMBA" yesterday, the first time in many years. There was a part in the movie in which Ritchie Valens said that for the "B" side of "Donna" he wanted to do "La Bamba". His manager/producer tried to nix the idea by saying, "It isn't rock'n'roll." To which Ritchie answered, "It is the way I play it!" That might help explain things a bit, I'm not sure, but another way... Rock'n'roll is but another vehichle in which a song can ride. Classical would be the limousine, Jazz would be a sport car, and rock'n'roll would be the "MUSCLE CAR"! Whitefang I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larryz Posted April 19, 2017 Share Posted April 19, 2017 I think La Bamba lead The Beatles to Twist and Shout...it's fun to run these two songs together as a rock and roll medley! Take care, Larryz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitefang Posted April 20, 2017 Share Posted April 20, 2017 Now you're getting back into history. "La Bamba" is an old Mexican folk tune that was long in the "public domain" by the time Valens did his thing with it. And probably because it WAS in the public domain is probably why the guys who got writing credits for the Isley Brother's cover of "Twist and Shout"( yeah, it was a cover) in '62 didn't have the same hassel George Harrison did with "My Sweet Lord"/"He's So Fine". My wife( born in '41) and her older sister( and their Dad) told me they'd hear "La Bamba" played at Mexican weddings and other parties when they were growing up. It was usually one of the first songs any "ese" who picked up a guitar learned. Whitefang I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larryz Posted April 20, 2017 Share Posted April 20, 2017 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u__dnb9nop8 <---here's the movie version. Los Lobos is the band doing La Bamba and as the story goes Ritchie got the idea listening to an old Mexico band. At the end of the clip, you'll see Los Lobos on the acoustics. They do acoustic sets of the old Mexico music and one of these days I have to go see them live! If you watch closely you'll see a shot of Brian Setzer who played Eddie Cochran doing Summertime Blues in the movie...The Twist and Shout song was originally recorded by The Top Notes in '61, so the Isley Brothers version in '62 was as you say, a cover if you want to get historical! <---here's the Beatles doing their cover of Twist and Shout...they did a lot of covers BTW in their early days. You can hear the similarities and I think the Beatles version of T&S was born in old Mexico as well... Take care, Larryz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitefang Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 You don't have to really look that "closely" to notice Setzer as Eddie Cochran in that movie. And I'd say it's another good example of "perfect casting". But the point of my bringing both the movie and the song "La Bamba" up WASN'T to examine the history of the song. It was the the incident of Valens telling his manager that it IS rock'n'roll, "The way I play it." that was. JuJu wanted to know, "What is rock and roll?" And I thought it might help. But then, we here in the U S of A have become so accustomed to it that it's almost as hard to define as "What is LOVE?" But we DID give it a good try, and didn't resort to quoting Louis Armstrong who, when asked, "What is jazz?" answered, "If you have to ask, you'll NEVER know. " Whitefang I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuJu Kwan Posted April 21, 2017 Author Share Posted April 21, 2017 The U of Hawaii has an online course called The Evolution of American Popular Music. I have enough to worry about with my current class schedule, but may try to take it sometime in the future. Thanks for all the help, my head is spinning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larryz Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 @ Fang, That one line in the movie sums up my philosophy perfectly. Ritchie took a song out of old Mexico and made it his own...+1 The casting of Brian Setzer to do Summertime Blues was also perfect as he not only has the look, he could play it and sing it just like the original. Both concepts of doing your own thing and/or playing it like the original, are part of rock and roll history. Those that ignore history are doomed to repeat it! In the case of rock and roll, I look forward to repeating it LOL! @ JuJu, just think of your head spinning like a 45rpm record and you'll find plenty of rock and roll history on them. Hope we didn't throw too many curves at you! I hope you do get to that Evolution of American Popular Music. Sounds like a real fun course! Take care, Larryz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitefang Posted April 22, 2017 Share Posted April 22, 2017 The "Evolution of American Popular Music"? That ALONE will make your head spin, let alone the history of rock'n'roll! +1 on sounding like a fun course. PLEASE feel free to post any info you get from it! Whitefang I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuJu Kwan Posted April 22, 2017 Author Share Posted April 22, 2017 UH has a class on the History of Rock and Roll, but they don't offer it online. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delta Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 JuJu, I've been listening to R&R for 50 years and still love it. This may sound simplistic but Wikipedia has a decent definition and condensed history of the genre. Use it as a template, listen to the music and form your own opinion of what R&R is. "Let me stand next to your fire!", Jimi Hendrix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitefang Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 OW! Delta..... 50 YEARS? At THAT point, many of us here had been listening to it for 10+! Remember....50 years ago was the "Summer of love". Whitefang I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Iverson Posted April 24, 2017 Share Posted April 24, 2017 This all reminds me of what Louis Armstrong said when asked to define jazz: "Lady, if you have to ask, you'll never know!" And John Mayall once said: "I won't define blues... blues is coathanger!" Can we define classical music? Well the borders have become more blurry over the years - I'm sure Scott could tells us about THAT.... Define ROCK?? Maybe, "it's got a good beat and you can dance to it," if you remember Dick Clark and teenagers rating records. Of course, Strauss waltzes have a good beat and you can dance to them...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitefang Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 Yeah. So do POLKAS! Funny thing about that too. Back when I was a kid and The Dovells song "The Bristol Stomp" was all over the radio, my Grandmother( we're Polish) remarked something about it sounding somewhat like a Polka. We all laughed of course, but when, at her house, my brother put his 45 of it on her record player, our Grandparents DID the Polka to it in the middle of their living room! So....It's got a "GOOD BEAT", Dick? Hmph! A "good beat" for WHAT? Whitefang (Did'ja see my thread about ya Eric?) I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larryz Posted April 26, 2017 Share Posted April 26, 2017 I agree with Dicks Clark's American Bandstand reviews...R&R has to have a good beat and be easy to dance to LOL! I usually up tempo songs for dancing gigs but I remember one Beatle tune This Boy, that I slowed down a little. My bass player being a just like the record kind of guy didn't care for my slower version "as it's too hard to dance to when played slower". So, I threw my guitar cord out front and started dancing to it while playing it just to show him it's a nice fit (if you know how to dance LOL!)... Take care, Larryz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitefang Posted April 27, 2017 Share Posted April 27, 2017 ???? Slow DOWN "This Boy"? Wasn't it SLOW ENOUGH already? Whitefang I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larryz Posted April 27, 2017 Share Posted April 27, 2017 Yeah, your right, my version is up-tempo using a jazzy like 2strum chord changes. It's not all that much faster. It's been so long since the gig I was talking about I forgot that I went faster instead of slower... Anyway, I just went into my music room and picked up my acoustic and played it to find out LOL! It's not like the slow original and has a different vibe. The bass player was wrong though, it was/is exceptionally easy to dance to and has a good beat! Not that the Beatles didn't do a great job...I just like my version better! Take care, Larryz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitefang Posted April 28, 2017 Share Posted April 28, 2017 Well, when you consider that with a song to "slow dance" to can't really be TOO slow( as we really weren't that concerned with the DANCING then anyway ) Then I guess what you did was OK too. Whitefang I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Iverson Posted April 28, 2017 Share Posted April 28, 2017 I read somewhere that French classical composer Maurice Ravel was upset at a performance of his famous Bolero (you've all heard it, doubtless) and said, "the Bolero is a dance, but it is a SLOW dance"......... Re: dancing - that was never a particular interest of mine, just something to do to make the girl I was with happy. My wife told me once, "How come you have good rhythm in your HANDS but not in your FEET??" So I guess I'm not a candidate for ballet star of the year! Maybe I just have heard the right dance music........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d halfnote Posted April 28, 2017 Share Posted April 28, 2017 FWIW & BTW, if ya gotta go to Uversity to learn abt the what's what fer hysteria O' pop music ya' ain't been alive long have ya ? Least not dur'n' last 1/2 C. d=halfnote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larryz Posted April 28, 2017 Share Posted April 28, 2017 It's a ton of fun when our dance band shows up and we rock the house. The whole dance floor is filled up with everyone dancing and having a great time! "It has to have a good beat and be easy to dance to", is true for both fast and slow tunes. You need about 3 slow tunes and 9 fast tunes per set and each set should build on the fun factor with the song choices. When playing solo, it's mostly a listening affair. So you can sit down and play 5 slow and 5 fast tunes and/or the in between tunes LOL! I don't really care to dance anymore but I still enjoy listening to live music... Take care, Larryz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitefang Posted April 29, 2017 Share Posted April 29, 2017 ERIC: The Bolero IS actually a style of dance as well as music. So Ravel had a reason to complain. And actually, I've always found his "Bolero" a kind of a bore, but HAVE heard various recordings and was at a few performances of it and have to agree it does come off better at a slower tempo. As far as dancing goes, I usually looked like ST. VITUS on the dancefloor so I never bothered with going to many dances when young, but slow dancing didn't seem to be a problem, and of course in MY house(as a kid) you HAD to learn to Polka. So.... Whitefang I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Fraser Posted April 29, 2017 Share Posted April 29, 2017 And actually, I've always found his "Bolero" a kind of a bore, but HAVE heard various recordings and was at a few performances of it and have to agree it does come off better at a slower tempo. Whitefang At the time it came on the scene it was an incredibly radical departure from the classical mainstream. That sort of repetition was some 40-45 years before Phillip Glass made it his signature. Ravel's own personal score indicates a tempo of 76, which is crossed out & replaced with 66, so he favored a slower tempo as well. It's his most well known & well loved piece, but he was not much enamored of it apparently. Check out Pink Martini's version. Scott Fraser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d halfnote Posted April 29, 2017 Share Posted April 29, 2017 Doesn't the actual tempo of "Bolero" accelerate as the piece progresses ? Or does it just get busier ? I'll have to recheck that.... d=halfnote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Fraser Posted April 29, 2017 Share Posted April 29, 2017 Doesn't the actual tempo of "Bolero" accelerate as the piece progresses ? Or does it just get busier ? I'll have to recheck that.... The orchestration fills out & the dynamics are a constant crescendo throughout but the tempo remains the same. Scott Fraser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitefang Posted April 30, 2017 Share Posted April 30, 2017 As "well loved" as it appears to be, I more prefer his Daphnis et Chloe. But that's how it goes with some of those guys. Like, "The Nutcracker" and it's suite is Tchaikovsky's most "well loved" work, but he too, really didn't care that much for IT. It was a commissioned work, and he did it to hurry up and get out of the obligation. So he claimed. I suppose there are a few(or more) rock'n'roll recordings out there that the band or artist did without much effort or care in order to fullfill the contracted "sides" they were required to do so they could move on to a different label with possibly a better contract. But, the PUBLIC might have wound up liking them so much that we're not AWARE of the artist NOT liking it that much too. Whitefang I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larryz Posted April 30, 2017 Share Posted April 30, 2017 <---when I think of Rock and how it relates to Classical, I think of the Tans-Siberian Orchestra. They can handle the tempo changes extremely well. I sat in the audience and watched their show live and it was fantastic! Everyone should experience their show at least once...but sit near the aisle and an exit as there is a ton of pyrotechnics going off LOL! The lazier light show is also incredible... Take care, Larryz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d halfnote Posted April 30, 2017 Share Posted April 30, 2017 FWIW & BTW, I think the Trans Siberian Express is over. Leader Paul O'Neill died abt 3 weeks ago. Tying up recent trail here, there's this... Bolero take 1 [video:youtube] bolero take 2 [video:youtube] ...which should effectively bring us back to the topic at hand. What is R&R ? One answer might be remaking the musical landscape for a modern age/edge. d=halfnote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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