What is Rock&Roll?

[Larryz]

@ Fang, Those blue grass boys do some great improvisation. I've heard it referred to as jazz grass!

 

@ Doc, Their are also some very cool blue grass versions of old rock and roll songs, Beatles, etc. Which I find very cool! I was at my buddies party and he was playing some blue grass for background music at low volume. At first I just thought it was blue grass. Then the lyrics started giving things away and sounding too familiar! I finally realized what the songs really were!

 

<---pretty cool improv once they get wound up and get through the introductions LOL!

 

The offshoot stuff may not win any pure blue grass awards, but I still like it!

[whitefang]

"Jazz Grass"?

 

Well then, you GOTTA love THIS>>>>

 

Whitefang

[Larryz]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJTYpHT9q-Y <----give some of this a listen some night when you have time...or just a couple of minutes right now to check out the first tune!

 

That one you posted, I call Country Improv! It's all good!

[DocPate]

Back in my days, we did some old folk stuff Bluegrass

 

In the Pines was also done by Mississippi John Hurt and Leadbelly

[whitefang]

Good clip Larry.

 

Sure, it's more HOW it's played more than the instrumentation I guess.

 

I once met a guy who told me he heard some guy somwhere on some recording play Jazz BAGPIPES!

 

And SCOTT I think, did some work with an ensemble called The Kronos String Quartet, who once did a string quartet arrangement of Jimi's "Purple Haze".( correct me if I got the wrong person).

 

That violinist reall gets into it!

Whitefang

 

[DocPate]

@Larry - That's some good bluegrass. Wish I had a nickel for every time we played Roll In My Sweet Baby's ARms...

 

There;s some great "newgrass" out there. Steeldriver's is a great newgrass band.

 

@Fang - You be the judge between "folk" and "Bluegrass".

 

Leadbelly's version:

 

 

and Bill Monroe

 

 

and then you have Mississippi John Hurt

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blI2dXHyBj0

[Larryz]

You've got Scott right Fang! He is involved with doing the sound for some fantastic Kronos string players, who have played live on stage backing up Paul McCartney! Doesn't get much bigger than that!

 

Now Jazz on bagpipes may be a little hard to take LOL!

[Scott Fraser]

I once met a guy who told me he heard some guy somwhere on some recording play Jazz BAGPIPES!

 

Rufus Harley. A diatonic instrument which can only play a range of a 9th, against drones which are traditionally halfway between B & Bb. I haven't heard him in a really long time but I want to know what kind of jazz fits into the extreme limitations of that axe. Pipers can turn off the drones, but if Harley could play Giant Steps on the chanter I will shut my skeptical mouth.

[Larryz]

<---OK, got to eat my hat a little...at first I thought she just had one too many and wasn't really going to play that thing! But then again, she does a pretty cool job [no pun] LOL!

[Dannyalcatraz]

I'm more familiar with Gunhild Carling playing her brass off- her bagpipe skillz are a revelation!

[Scott Fraser]

And SCOTT I think, did some work with an ensemble called The Kronos String Quartet, who once did a string quartet arrangement of Jimi's "Purple Haze".( correct me if I got the wrong person).

That violinist reall gets into it!

Whitefang

 

That's a very early version of Purple Haze. It got a whole lot louder & psychedelicized after I took over sound duties for Kronos, which has been about 25 years now.

[whitefang]

1st, DOC:

Does seem to be a fine line between "folk" and "Bluegrass" don't it? All a matter of instumentation looks like. And that THIRD clip was another LEADBELLY and NOT John Hurt. But it's all good.

 

SCOTT: The guy never DID mention a name, and it WAS back in '71 he was telling me about it. But with that ammunition I'll look into it. Never heard of Gunhild, but always welcome new info. Thanks Larry.

 

Here's a sample of Rufus. Appears also to be a multi-instrumentalist.

 

 

 

Whitefang

 

[Larryz]

Lots of clips of her on YouTube. She's a very talented lady...

[Scott Fraser]

One could be snobbish & say that bagpipes without drones aren't really the real thing, but I have to give it up to Rufus for getting up on stage in a kilt, with a modal wind instrument that you can't articulate notes with breath on, & doing something really unusual, in a genre which is all about deep harmonic complexity.

[Larryz]

There are lots of them without drones from many countries, but they are not referred to as a bagpipes (even though they all use a bag and a chanter). Italy it's a Gaghet, Southern India, Serbia, Poland, Hungarian Duda, Macadonian and Galacian Gaita, etc. But they all refer to a player the same way as the bagpipes do, as a Piper...

 

The "real thing" bagpipes do have a tuning screw which allows the piper to shut off the drones. +1 real bagpipes need at least one drone to sound like a bagpipe...kind of like a drone string on a banjo. Neither really fits in the jazz genre, but I applaud those that try to fit one in LOL!

[d halfnote]

@d-Thank you for the videos, unfortunately YouTube is blocked here and I can't watch them. I do appreciate the effort.

 

I guess my limited exposure to Western music makes it somewhat confusing, but I think I have a slightly better idea. We mostly Listened to the Beatles. I wasn't exposed to most other R&R artists till 2012, when I came to the USA for college.

 

Gee, I hadn't even noticed yer loc., JJK.

I'll ask you a few questions abt that in a PM.

 

As for the vids, I know there are several Chinese equivalents to "Western" Net sites.

Is there a place you can see online videos ?

[d halfnote]

My wise crack about "If it doesn't have a saxophone it isn't Rock n Roll" wasn't something I made up. This is something a bandleader I worked for when I was a college student used to say. I paid my way through college playing in a 50s and 60s Pre-British Invasion Rock n Roll review show. Sort of along the lines of Sha Na Na. The bandleader was a Tenor Sax man. He hated the British bands with the slight exception of the Rolling Stones. Blamed them for coming over and putting American bands out of work ...... seriously he said that. Not sure I would want to play that gig now but I sure wished the gold lamé suit still fit. But I loved the music. It was fun music with the happy backbeat.

 

But to me at least in my mind's eye I sort of had a similar picture of Rock N Roll. To me it was mostly a Pre British Invasion sound. Vocal harmonies, sax riffs, upbeat 4/4 back beat rhythm. We kind of saw a resurgence in the 80s with Huey Lewis and John Cafferty ect.... Happy Days was a big TV hit. What morphed and followed the British Invasion of the 60s I viewed more as Rock... without the Roll.

 

I think we should extrapolate that -----> " all music w/ a sax is R&R " !!

[d halfnote]

@scott There are a lot of people who will debate you on bluegrass.

 

Maybe, b/c, y'know some ppl'll debate anything...but here's how bluergrass connects w/ what Scott said: Most think bluegrass is an outgrowth of Scot-derived mountain music & that's true, although it's also incomplete.

Bluegrass is a deliberate development of the influence of jazz on folk forms.

 

... the major players of beginning bluegrass, it didn't derive from the blues.

 

All due respect (& this comes from one w/ a personal bg not dis-similar to what you cite), there is a definite blues influence on many of the early lights of both C&W & bluegrass music.

 

Chk the background of A P Carter & Jimmy Rogers, for example, &, more to the 'grass tip, are y'tellin' me y'can't hear the bluesy bend on the word "top" as these cats swing into the refrain each time ?

 

[video:youtube]

 

& lest that be considered too modern, here's Bill Monroe hisself at that start of the style.

The opening fiddle chorus, the vocal bends of the words "left" (at :37) & "said" (1:05) [along w/ other spots] all bespeak an influence of blues effects.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAVFpThoeb4

[video:youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAVFpThoeb4

 

Now that doesn't mean that the entire form derived from the blues or that there weren't similar effects in other, earlier forms but it does indicate some influence.

 

That's one of the main things that many ppl miss when they try drawing distinctions between genres---there's a greater similarity between what seem different musical styles & cultures than most hear (or maybe allow themselves to hear).

It's built into the very physics of music & the effects that certain relative frequencies have on humans.

 

That's one reason that early field hollers, etc, have a distinct similarity to some musics of Native Americans 9ever hear of a "tumbling strain" ?).

Another reason is that, in the USA, despite attempts to keep ppl divided, there was always a significant interaction, esp between those of lesser economic status.

 

I again refer to the book I mentioned before, MUMBO JUMBO by Ishmael Reed.

Y' wanna read a history of music in the USA (& beyond, the world) in the last 100 yrs & that music's effects on societies ?

That's yer tome !

 

[whitefang]

Any books on music history are full of good stuff, and that one sounds like a "must read".

 

But, "..In the last 100 yrs..."? That would put us at 1917, and RAGTIME was just slowing down after 22 years of being on "top".

 

Now, tell ME you don't hear elements of blues or jazz in this stuff! My favorite Ragtime piece, "Maple Leaf Rag" published in 1899.

 

Whitefang

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Larryz]

<---I thought my oldest song was Summertime 1932, but then again 5' 2 Has Anybody Seen My Gal, from 1925 takes the cake by Lewis and Young. Then I looked it up on Wiki and it was written in 1914 by Jack Mahoney. This clip has some pretty cool jazzey improv from back in the ragtime days...my version is different as I don't play it just like the record LOL! Cue the Twighlight Zone music...I was just playing it for no particular reason last night, then Fang brings up ragtime this morning???

[d halfnote]

Larry, what do y'mean by "I thought my oldest song was Summertime 1932"...oldest song in yer repertoire or something else.

 

FWIW, while it's an almost impossible task with continual crosstalk, I wish anyone interested in actual discussion of points in threads resist the diversionary posts that crop up.

[Larryz]

Larry, what do y'mean by "I thought my oldest song was Summertime 1932"...oldest song in yer repertoire or something else.

 

FWIW, while it's an almost impossible task with continual crosstalk, I wish anyone interested in actual discussion of points in threads resist the diversionary posts that crop up.

 

There is nothing diversionary in my post and I go where life takes me. A lot of threads segue and go off topic so +1 that would be an impossible task...

 

Yes, I was talking about "my" oldest song and my material not going back to the caveman banging on a rock to lead up to a rock and roll discussion LOL! I was also following along with ragtime and other music leading in the direction of blues, jazz, etc. For me, and I mean me, it's all about the boogie! But, I'm heavy into improvisation like in the song and video I posted. In jazz, country, swing, rock and roll, blues, American music, etc., the importance of free will and improv cannot be understated IMHO.

 

ps. oh, and improv in bluegrass too!

[whitefang]

FWIW, while it's an almost impossible task with continual crosstalk, I wish anyone interested in actual discussion of points in threads resist the diversionary posts that crop up.

 

Unless you turn it into "d=salmon", I'd drop it right there.

 

A couple of years ago I, like you are now, made much noise about the "derailment" of threads. In no time, I was bombarded by other members and Mods alike with such prases as "Mother Hen", "Fluid Dynamic" and "Natural conversational flow". I still TRY from time to time, but quit being so retentive about it. For your peace of mind and digestion, I'd advise you follow suit. And how CAN you make an argument about LANGUAGE being a "fluid" thing and NOT expect that fluid to seep into other areas?

 

I DO sympathize, but you can too quickly relate to Sisyphus in quick order.

 

@Larry--I'm not sure either what you mean by YOUR "oldest song", but if you mean one that you can remember just knowing and singing to yourself from time to time, then MINE is "Sweet Adeline", a tune my Mom used to sing and hum while doing housework. And it goes back to 1903. Another is "Jeanie With The Light Brown Hair" by Stephan Foster, 1854! Now THERE'S the "Father of American Music" for ya

 

Whitefang PS: My Mom, once a member of her high school's "Robed Choir" and a fine sounding soprano, would comically sing "Sweet Adeline" sometimes at her loudest, and as off key as she could manage to drive me and my brother out of the house on nice days.

[whitefang]

Oh, and LARRY:

When you made your little joke about a caveman beating on a rock, THIS quickly came to my mind---

 

 

Whitefang

 

 

 

[DocPate]

I don't see anything division art here. Just great discussion which I thought was the purpose of a forum.

 

As far as Rock and roll goes, no doubt it's roots are in blues (both African American and Hillbilly blues). Throw in some jazz influences (boogie Woogie) and some gospel and you have rock and roll. IMHO

[d halfnote]

I don't see anything division art here. Just great discussion which I thought was the purpose of a forum.

Hmmm...did you mistake "diversion" in my post for "division" ?

 

Larry, what do y'mean by "I thought my oldest song was Summertime 1932"...oldest song in yer repertoire or something else.

 

FWIW, while it's an almost impossible task with continual crosstalk, I wish anyone interested in actual discussion of points in threads resist the diversionary posts that crop up.

 

There is nothing diversionary in my post and I go where life takes me. A lot of threads segue and go off topic so +1 that would be an impossible task...

Larry, just b/c I mentioned 2 things in the same post doesn't mean they were both abt you but there are some here who seem just to have to post even if it means diverting the point.

[Larryz]

Larry, what do y'mean by "I thought my oldest song was Summertime 1932"...oldest song in yer repertoire or something else.

 

FWIW, while it's an almost impossible task with continual crosstalk, I wish anyone interested in actual discussion of points in threads resist the diversionary posts that crop up.

 

 

Sorry D, I thought you were aiming at me. I know I have managed to be guilty of getting sidetracked on several occasions LOL! This time I thought I was on point...

[Larryz]

@Larry--I'm not sure either what you mean by YOUR "oldest song", but if you mean one that you can remember just knowing and singing to yourself from time to time, then MINE is "Sweet Adeline", a tune my Mom used to sing and hum while doing housework. And it goes back to 1903. Another is "Jeanie With The Light Brown Hair" by Stephan Foster, 1854! Now THERE'S the "Father of American Music" for ya

 

Whitefang PS: My Mom, once a member of her high school's "Robed Choir" and a fine sounding soprano, would comically sing "Sweet Adeline" sometimes at her loudest, and as off key as she could manage to drive me and my brother out of the house on nice days.

 

I LOVE LUCY did a great off-key job on Sweet Adeline!

 

When I say my oldest song, I'm talking about my material (as explained above). Many of the songs Elvis picked on, re-arranged and made hits of, go back to the rhythm and blues and country tunes from '45 to 55'. A ton of people think Since I Fell for You by Lenny Welch ('63) was and old tune but it goes back to '45. That was [MY] oldest song until I started picking on Summertime which dates back to 1932. I'm always searching for new material and I find myself finding it, in the old stuff. Scotch and Soda by the Kingston Trio was out in the 60's but that song history goes back to 1932 as well. No one knows who the real original artist was (a piano player in a back street bar) wrote it out on a napkin for one of the Trios parents while they were on their honeymoon (so the story goes). So, 1932 was the date of my oldest song(s) in [MY] song list, till you started talking ragtime. Then I found the info on 5'2 that used to be on my list from 1925 being written in 1914...so if it gets put back on [MY] list, it will take the honor of being [MY] oldest song...I hope this explains it for you and D, as I don't know how else to say it...but, I tried!!!

[Larryz]

Oh, and LARRY:

When you made your little joke about a caveman beating on a rock, THIS quickly came to my mind---

 

 

Whitefang

 

 

 

So, Your caveman blew on a cow horn and mine banged on the rocks and logs...

 

<---In any event, this is what it evolved to in rock and roll LOL! and for CEB, @ 0:54, it has a sax lead!

[whitefang]

I don't see anything division art here. Just great discussion which I thought was the purpose of a forum.

Hmmm...did you mistake "diversion" in my post for "division" ?

 

 

YAHWOL, mein Commandant! Ist Die fehler!

 

@Larry. OK. Gotcha now.

 

So I guess the oldest song in MY bag would be "Big Rock Candy Mountain"( '28) or "See That My Grave Is Kept Clean" ('27) which I learned off of Bob Dylan's 1962 debut album, but I was 14 at the time( '65), and the liner notes DID say it was an old Blind Lemon Jefferson tune.

 

It IS kinda funny, and leaves ya feeling a bit sheepish when you discover some song you know and like, and thought where and WHEN you first heard and learned it goes back further than you originally thought. Like that guy I told y'all about who told me HE thought Chuck Berry "screwed up" that BEATLES tune! ("Roll Over Beethoven") Or how I know folks, like my nephew's wife, who thought "At Last" was an Etta James ORIGINAL, and was surprised to learn it was written by Harry Warren and Mack Gordon for the 1941 movie "Sun Valley Serenade". She picked the song to be her and my nephew's "Bridal Dance" song at their wedding.

 

Warren and Al Durbin also wrote "I Only Have Eyes For You" in 1934 for the movie "Dames" and THE MOONGLOWS made famous in 1959!

 

What does any of this have to do with rock'n'roll? Well, it proves the versitality of the genre. With little effort and an open minded immagination, you could make ANY tune a rock song. And I suppose, vice-versa. MUZAK certainly proved THAT.

Whitefang