d halfnote Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 Recent side comments in another thread abt "authentic" jazz gtrs leads me to point out these players... Let's start here with TWO unauthenttic jazz gtrs [video:youtube] Then there was Ted Greene here working magic under the clatter of cutlery at a wedding [video:youtube] Ted "teles" some of his set up [video:youtube] Mike Stern, changing yer, uh, Chromozones, if not DNA [video:youtube] Long-time studio maven Ed Bickert, demonstrating why & how [video:youtube] So, that's the name o' that ! d=halfnote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitefang Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 I've mentioned Bickert a lot here, and fan-TAS-tic clip! Ed on guitar?---Dang! And Don Thompson on bass?---DAMN! Thanks for that. ALL them clips were gr-r-r-r-r-EAT! Whitefang I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larryz Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 Good stuff! Take care, Larryz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred_C Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 1. If I recall correctly, I had commented on "appropriateness of Tone", not "authentic Jazz guitars". 2. That being said, you may really enjoy this thread from the Jazz Guitar Forum. It is entitled "Telecaster love thread - no archtops allowed". That should really get your juices flowing. http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/guitar-amps-gizmos/45879-telecaster-love-thread-no-archtops-allowed.html Nevertheless, the vast majority of players on the forum (which is international) play hollow body or semi-hollow body instruments. This fact can easily be proven by just visiting the forum (www.jazzuitar.be) and perusing the threads in the sub-forum Guitars, Amps and Gizmos And with that, I'll leave the balance of this thread to the Jazz guitar experts like d and Whitefang. If you play cool, you are cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larryz Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 +1 Brother Fred, well said, well written! Take care, Larryz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Iverson Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 As we all know, it's not just the guitar.... it's also how you set the tone controls and the amp and how you set ITS tone controls... and of course, how you strike the strings has a lot to do with it. Still, I probably wouldn't choose a fat body Gibson for a hard rock gig, LOL. Though Ted Nugent might disagree with that..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitefang Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 Y'know, I really don't WANT to , but I NEVER claimed anybody SHOULDN'T use those styles of guitars for jazz, only that it COULD be done WITHOUT them, and that I AM well aware the majority of jazz players PREFER them. And again..... MY beef was guitar manufacturers forwarding the NOTION that one should ONLY use those models of guitars for jazz, and NOTHING ELSE. Now they never came straight out and SAID so, but in promoting models of fat, hollow bodied guitars as "jazz" guitars, some MIGHT get that impression. Like how some might get the idea because many COUNTRY pickers use TELECASTERS or play those free TAKAMINE acoustics, that you HAVE to in order to be considered a COUNTRY player. And despite the childish condescension, I NEVER claimed to be an "expert" at ANYTHING. Just expressing an opinion, which I DO have a RIGHT to. And BTW Fred: I mentioned that "Folklore" radio show to that guy from Philly on that other forum. HE claimed he knew about it but never listened to it because(in HIS words) "That was just for all them CANDY ASS "folkies". Well, myself being an old "candy ass" folkie, I took umbrage and told him to take a lick! Whitefang I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larryz Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 I know a ton of country pickers love the Tele Twang. It's kind of like the acoustic pickers (like Garth), they want to prove their guitar talent without all the whistle and bells like pedals, whammy bars, etc. Jazz guys are the same playing big box guitars loaded with flatwounds and going into the mellow zone. Guys like Pass and Benson that get their signatures. Then there are all those Strat and Tele players like Bonnie, Stevie, Eric, Dale, Holly, Burton, etc., many of which get those signatures guitars from Fender. Les Paul needs no signature model as Gibson got a cool name from him LOL! Then there's Gretsch sigs for Chet and Brian...there seems to be a pattern here when it comes to guitar manufactures sending out those subliminal messages LOL! You can play anything on just about any guitar and make it sound great if you have great talent IMHO. The fact is that many pros/icons in a genre seem to prefer certain guitars for some very good reason. There are always going to be the exceptional players we all wish we could be and wish to capture some of their sound...I owned one Clapton Custom Shop sig model and sold it to my brother. He probably does it more justice than I could do with it LOL! I like Teles and Strats and Taylors but I find myself on my acoustic Takamine more than all my other guitars! and it has nothing to do with wanting to sound like Garth! Take care, Larryz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d halfnote Posted March 27, 2017 Author Share Posted March 27, 2017 1. If I recall correctly, I had commented on "appropriateness of Tone", not "authentic Jazz guitars". FC, don't mistake this thread as a diatribe against yer comments, which I generally find well based. That said, there is a fair question abt "appropriateness of tone" as much as "authenticity" of any instrument. We may recall a thread from a few months back that, far from being a celebration of advancing instrument technology & player skills as it was intended, wound up being a platform for "what people expected to hear" from particular instruments & why that made some uses, etc, just "wrong" in their minds. I simply find that a misguided notion that goes against the empirical facts. 2. That being said, you may really enjoy this thread from the Jazz Guitar Forum. It is entitled "Telecaster love thread - no archtops allowed". That should really get your juices flowing. http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/guitar-amps-gizmos/45879-telecaster-love-thread-no-archtops-allowed.html Nevertheless, the vast majority of players on the forum (which is international) play hollow body or semi-hollow body instruments. This fact can easily be proven by just visiting the forum (www.jazzuitar.be) and perusing the threads in the sub-forum Guitars, Amps and Gizmos Again, that's a matter of tradition more than any limitation of tone to certain instruments...or, indeed, what might constitute a "jazz" tone...isn't it ? And with that, I'll leave the balance of this thread to the Jazz guitar experts like d and Whitefang. No need to slur me with that association, is there ? d=halfnote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuJu Kwan Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 The problem with the signature guitars and the Les Paul's is that most people of my generation, excluding me and a few others, don't know or care about these players. Guitar company's need to get out of the past and start looking at the future. GP magazine had a good article about this a couple months ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred_C Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 @d, Your points are all well taken and valid opinions. Peace out. If you play cool, you are cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitefang Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 The problem with the signature guitars and the Les Paul's is that most people of my generation, excluding me and a few others, don't know or care about these players. Guitar company's need to get out of the past and start looking at the future. GP magazine had a good article about this a couple months ago. I can agree with that to a point, the only correction I'd suggest would be to NOT look at the future, as no one ever realy knows what it will bring. And a business can't possibly plan for a future that may or may not come. But what point is taken is.... They need to get more into the PRESENT. I mean, we "geezers" have long held OUR "heroes" close to our hearts for many years and will probably never let them go. But younger generations SHOULDN'T( notice the word!) feel any obligation to them except by choice. So I can undertand some 16 year old kid struggling to learn his way around a fretboard NOT being all obssessed in obtaining an ERIC CLAPTON signature Strat. Unless of course, some "hero" of HIS plays one and heaps praise on it AND Eric. Whitefang I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larryz Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 The problem with the signature guitars and the Les Paul's is that most people of my generation, excluding me and a few others, don't know or care about these players. Guitar company's need to get out of the past and start looking at the future. GP magazine had a good article about this a couple months ago. I'm glad you still care JuJu! Each generation seems to find their heros. Mine dates back to 1954 with Scotty Moore when I just 5 or 6 years old in those days. It took a decade before I figured out who he was and how he influences my playing even in this day and age. Then I do a little research and go back to the 30's with Django...I hope the young and upcoming players will also do a little research while they are learning guitar. Scotty has a signature Gibson hollow body with P90's that I would love to have but $4,000 was a little out of my budget LOL! Take care, Larryz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d halfnote Posted March 27, 2017 Author Share Posted March 27, 2017 As far as that goes, the "problem" is less with heroes, classic industry standard models or anything else than it might be with those who get hide-bound abt what's supposed to be. I reiterate my ref to a not-so-old thread wherein some decried musicians & instrument uses that stood outside their perceptions of what they expected to hear from an instrument or genre. However, lemme try to steer thing's back to the point by this tactic: If we're gonna discuss Eric Clapton here (however briefly I hope that may be) let me point out that one of my big long-term disappointments with him is that, once he got past the gtr hero trap of Cream & even came to embrace the sometimes maudlin pop at which he shot arrows toward the "For Yer Love" Yardbirds, he kinda stopped doing much to challenge his own history, unlike , say Jeff Beck. Here's the most interesting thing I've heard EC play since abt 1975. Note that he does have playing skills that go beyond the often clichéd licks he employs. His solo embellishment to the melody here are quite fluid & subtle ---even jazzlike--- in their way. [video:youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3bGvnx3ygg But let's not get too tied down abt that, OK ? How about this... [video:youtube] d=halfnote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larryz Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 <---here's a couple of my heroes on their signature guitars that's a little more my style...I've always loved Clapton through all of his various stages especially in his Cream days, his unplugged acoustic album, My Crossroads DVD with him having fun with all the greats...This Riding with the King album is one I really like. I didn't care much for the Clapton video as the music is not a genre that interests me. But, +1 he was challenging himself...the video on the Jazz settings by Tim Lerch on the Tele, with his strings, neck, volume and tone adjustments on guitar and amp, demo, etc., was real interesting. Take care, Larryz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitefang Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 I actually LIKED the Clapton clip. A LOT. It's reminiscent of the Eastern influenced stuff JOHN McLAUGHLIN did on the "B" side of his LP "MY GOALS BEYOND". And kind of fits in a bit(and since the clip seems to be shot at some tribute to George Harrison) with what me and SCOTT were discussing about Harrison in the "Record labels-subsidiaries" thread. Great clip, d Whitefang I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larryz Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 Any tribute to George is OK by me. George did a great job in bringing the Sitar into the Beatles arsenal (along with the electric 12 string)... Take care, Larryz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Fraser Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 I actually LIKED the Clapton clip. A LOT. It's reminiscent of the Eastern influenced stuff JOHN McLAUGHLIN did on the "B" side of his LP "MY GOALS BEYOND". And kind of fits in a bit(and since the clip seems to be shot at some tribute to George Harrison) with what me and SCOTT were discussing about Harrison in the "Record labels-subsidiaries" thread. Great clip, d Whitefang It's from the Concert For George tribute concert at the Royal Albert Hall. Clapton organized it after George's passing, with all of George's musical cohorts over the years. It's a great & moving DVD. Clapton's playing is very appropriate to the East-West nature of the piece & it feels to me like he's really into it, the opposite of phoning it in, even though it's not really his genre. I just wish they'd miked him up instead of relying on the piezo pickup, which turns a lovely performance into a bit of an ear-wrenching torment. Anybody who has played in an orchestra will notice that Anoushka Shankar is conducting 1-4-2-3 to the band. It's supposed to be down-left-right-up. Presumably those players don't really need a conductor anyway. Scott Fraser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bartholomew Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 #1 On-Call LA session-man...Wrecking Crew, the Fifth Monkee. I've been listening to this guy since age 16 before he did all those hit records with a whole bunch of known artists: [video:youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlb54WO_PhA Been round the block but am not over the hill... http://www.bandmix.ca/jamrocker/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larryz Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 Very nice Bartman and way to bring it back to some real jazz guitar along with some great drums, bass and piano! Take care, Larryz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Iverson Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 Clapton did a great job with a sort of "raga-rock" style on Cream's "Dance The Night Away", probably inspired by "Eight Miles High", and Clapton is a fan of Indian sitarist Vilayat Khan, a contemporary of Ravi Shankar. Surely he was aware of Coltrane at the time. Musicians like to explore..... the creative ones, anyway. But most of us have "tried and true" stuff we fall back on, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitefang Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred_C Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 But most of us have "tried and true" stuff we fall back on, too. When I took my last lesson from my teacher, Jerry Ricks, I asked him what I should play. He replied, "Play what makes you smile". I play the Jazz Standards of the '20's thru '50's. The newest thing I play is early '60's Bossa Nova (love that "Brazilian Sound"). The music makes me smile. If you play cool, you are cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Iverson Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 Reminding me that I have a book of standards from the '20s for mandolin and guitar, which I should dig out - partially because they were cool tunes, and because there are lots of mandolin chords I don't know, which is a hindrance when playing jazz! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larryz Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 +1 on playing what makes you smile Brother Fred...Eric too, as far as looking back goes. My oldest tunes in my set lists go back to 1932 and I truly enjoy playing and singing them. I also like R&B tunes from the 40's. 50's and 60's rock and roll, old Hank Williams country too (jazzed up a little)...My newest tune is around 1995 LOL! I'll be playing it for others tonight! Take care, Larryz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Fraser Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 I'm guessing Tim Lerch could make a Teisco sound like a million bucks. That great tone is in his hands. I've never owned a Tele but now I really want one. He gets incredible warmth out of the bridge pickup & incredible, just-bright-enough, clarity out of the neck pickup. If Fender ever needs an advertisement for having the most versatile tone around, this guy is it. Scott Fraser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitefang Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 Ya gotta give the Tele credit. Some would have thought that the model, with it's anachronistic looking design, would have been dropped due to disinterest long ago. But it's quality was such that NO interest was EVER lost in it. While there's been some models by others that have come and gone, the TELECASTER had stuck around a VERY long time, and if Fender doesn't fudge it up and change it or cut corners on it's "innards" components, your grandchildren and even your GREAT grandchildren will be able to buy NEW ones in years to come! Whitefang I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d halfnote Posted April 7, 2017 Author Share Posted April 7, 2017 Actually the point here's not the Tlecaster but a reminder that too mnay get hung up on what they think is the way things should be/sound like/etc. I guess I should accept that, as Professor Fred McDowell said back in his 1959 dissertation I Do Not Play No Rock & Roll, chapter 12 ("who's never get it"), you can't unfool alla the ppl ala the time. Anywhat, this ain't abt the 'Caster or any particular instrument or player but is abt the fact that we should remember that creative musicians use their tools in all kinda ways & gettin' stuck in clichéd thinkin' is the opposite of what art is. d=halfnote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitefang Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 Sure. Chopin's Polonaise in Ab Major played on an old beat up whorehouse upright with a toilet chain hung on the harp is STILL the polonaise on that or the finest Steinway. Jackson Pollack STILL created art. So did Ken Kesey in literary art. But there were many at the time of their creations who argued that none of it was. And time proved them wrong. To further illustrate d's poignant assertion--- If that "cliched thinking" won out, we wouldn't be HAVING any discussion about jazz guitar because there probably wouldn't have BEEN any jazz to PLAY on a guitar. OR rock'n'roll or Hip-hop or whatnot. In art class in school, our teacher stated that, "art is a form of 'self expression' ". And went on to say it's true of ALL art forms. And one CAN'T "self express" under any set of unmovable arbitrary "rules". Whitefang I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d halfnote Posted April 7, 2017 Author Share Posted April 7, 2017 .... as Professor Fred McDowell said back in his 1959 dissertation I Do Not Play No Rock & Roll, chapter 12 ("who's never get it"), you can't unfool alla the ppl ala the time. Making noise isn't the same as creating anything or having something to say. d=halfnote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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