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Roland RD-2000


ElmerJFudd

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Dont waste 10 minutes of your life looking at the first video - its a room recording and sounds like an-other or any-other DP.

 

Sound on the second Vid is good and direct from the RD I think.

 

The EP's on the funky jazz piece at 6.25 sound a lot spunkier than they do on the RD800.

Rhodes 1 at 7.05 and Rhodes 2 at 7.50 are prety dyr and sound good. The Wurlie at 8.50 I hav'nt been able to coax out of the RD800 it has a great thewack!

 

Anyone agree! :wave:

 

Dont remember Roland boasting too much about the EP's in thier promo.

 

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I don't know if the organs are the same as the RD-800, but in my brief audition of the organs in the RD-2000 at NAMM they didn't seem to be much, if any, improvement over the Jupiter-80 organs. Overall, I did not find them to be all that inspiring.

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing."

- George Bernard Shaw

 

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It definitely plays nicer, and for me, sounds better then the NP3. I can see only the CP4 as the main competitor. And then you're into the weight consideration - 48 lbs. for the Roland and 38 for the Yamaha. And of course tonal preference.

 

From my first play with it , I'd have a hard time saying which one would take "second place" - they're both that good.

 

Needless to say it would take having them next to each other for an extended period of time, in addition to using them on the gig, to really hone in on which one you would feel a closer connection with.

 

Or you could just like them both equally well.

With all due respect, i know you are a fan of the CP4 and have a love / (but even more) hate relationship with Nord,........ i think you should give Nord a little bit more credits.

Yes, i know about the top end lacking in some models etc.......but you can't deny a certain organic sound and ''realness'' (both in recordings and the FOH) can you ? I think both Yamaha and Roland lack that specific charactarisation.(organic and real)

 

I am ''fulltime'' prof. pianotuner for 28 years that knows a thing or two about actions and "piano sounds".

Only the Kawai high- end actions starting from the MP9000 resemble a real action due to it's real hammer throw.(althaugh the hammer itself is a placebo)

Roland, Yamaha and Fatar use another approach that some like more than the other. However the actions are not really an accurate immitation of what happens in a real action.

I for one think , apart from Kawai, that all fall short actionwise, also because i use a Kawai

as reference myself and mostly end up in disbelief trying out the new PHA-50 and the equivalents from other brands.

They are playable actions for sure, but they don't feel like grand piano actions.

The fatar in the Nord piano 3 is as capable as the Yamaha CP4 and both have an artificial feel that would drive me nuts if those were my only practice boards.

I have played a Nord Stage for years LIVE and i must say i got better with it over time, up to the point i kinda liked it's action.

 

For sounds i put Nord on top, mainly because of the different piano flavours andorganic sound, Roland still sounds kinda plastic, althaugh extremely playable !! and Yamaha ........ well i use the Garritan CFX for more than a year now and the CP4's CFX sample is like going back in time when memory was expensive and we only had 25+ Mb for our pianosamples and had to be carefull what to sample..... .

 

You make money and beautifull music with your CP4 and therefor it deserves the credits of a very capable board alone,......

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NONE of them feel like grand piano actions !! Even the MP11 !

Reminds me of a funny thing I noticed... When I first played an MP10, I had the feeling that it was a substantial, high quality action, but heavier/sluggish compared to a real grand. As it happens, not long after, I played a wedding gig where I used the house baby grand for cocktail hour, which happened to be a Kawai, and as soon as I played it, I thought, a-ha! This is why the MP10 feels that way! ;-)

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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I do give Nord credit for creating and expanding their niche market.. They are a small, independent company that has an extensive base of people that love and will play nothing but their instruments. Hats off to these people !! I'm simply not one of them.

Can't say I didn't try for 4 years with the NP88 & NP2. And the time I've spent writing about it here - I probably could have learned another Chopin Etude. ;):deadhorse:

Hahahaha....that was funny !!

Your "organic' and "realness" is my harsh, too bright, clanky, uneven and un-natural sounding. Yes, they are present and clear on recordings and cut through a rock mix well. But I was never happy with the sound coming through my speakers on gigseven on rock gigs. I couple "that sound" (which I know all too well ) with the very sub-par Fatar action -- and I feel like I'm struggling and compromising even that much more playing something that's trying to imitate a piano. Basically for me this = no fun.

The Silver grand (Kawai sample) was Nord's best offering for live use in my opinion (both sound and playability),.....i cannot recall a post where you commented on that specific sound....

I found it much, much better than the Italian grand and the bright grand..

When i mainly used the Bright grand i purchased an Integra7 and was surprised how much better the fatar action played when triggering the Integra7. The Silver grand also plays way better than previous renderings.

Actually having the NP2 and CP4 next to each other in my studio for 4 months gave me the chance to really hear how thin the Nord pianos were next to the CFX. I had an engineer friend over (with very big ears) who mixes and masters for major labels. I played both through my RCF TT08As with my JMK Audio JM-110 di/pre. He confirmed my impressions - the Yamaha CFX and CF grands sounded much more rich, full AND realistic then the Nord.

I only used my Nord through a MS KP500SN and got lots of positive feedback from the audience and sound crew.

I played the CP 4 at Namm '14 and on several occasions in music stores.

Coming from a P120 long ago, i truly hated that processed Yamaha sound so much i went for Kawai and Nord.

The CP300 and the Motif line didn´t convince me either.

I played the CP1 on numerous occasions and i still suffered from the bad P120 imprintings in my system.....couldn´t warm for it at all !

I kinda liked the CP4 at Namm, but the keys felt neither pleasently light as the CP1 or firm as the Kawai renderings.

I see. Well I'm actually a piano player - for almost 50 years. 35 of those years I've been fortunate enough to practice on 3 top quality grands daily - Yamaha C7E, Yamaha S6 and Steinway D. If you add up the thousands of practice hours I've logged at home, plus the time in recording studios , concerts, clubs and casuals on every conceivable brand and model of piano (ranging from great to brutal) - basically I feel I have a pretty good understanding of what sounds and plays good. Most certainly I know what I like and don't like.

I know you do ! I have tuned 15 or more piano´s each week the last 28 years, adjusted, intonated and regulated countless of concert grand piano´s....so i call it a draw.....hahaha, i just wanted to point out that i like Nord very much and that opinion comes from someone who doesn´t feel the same as you do about Nord, but has equall credentials when it comes to piano´s in general.

BTW Kawai James and the Kawai crew heard me play at the Messe 2016 on their digital grand and multiple Onkyo amps and i he told me he was surprised and impressed ....not to boast or anything, but i am a serious pianist all my life too !! I was intrigued by the piano so much that i went to a piano technician´s school besides being a pianist. For a daily living a became a pianotuner and i played once a week as a pianist at mostly private parties of the rich.

I also played in bands the last 10 years.

 

Anyways ,....sorry to derail this topic about the RD2000, but i have read your appreciation towards Yamaha over the years, always liked your input, but Nord has given me so much pleasure that i couldn´t resist to counter your somewhat negative comments about the Nord.

 

 

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Can one really generalize piano actions of specific makers? I've played plenty of Kawai grands that were really heavy, but I've also played some that had probably the lightest action I've ever tried on a grand piano. Same with Steinway, we have a 6 foot grand at school that takes extra force to play whereas the 9 foot concert grand in the recital hall is fairly light. Both pianos were refurbished in recent years.

 

What bothers me with some of these digital stage piano actions isn't the heaviness of the keys but rather how the keys bounce back after being released. My Kawai MP7 is pretty sluggish in that regard but I manage to work around it. Fast repeated notes/chords is not its forte. A good concert grand key snaps right back. What digital piano actions are out there that perform likewise? I didn't think the CP4 was much better than my Kawai when I tried it out a couple of years ago.

'57 Hammond B-3, '60 Hammond A100, Leslie 251, Leslie 330, Leslie 770, Leslie 145, Hammond PR-40

Trek II UC-1A

Alesis QSR

 

 

 

 

 

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What bothers me with some of these digital stage piano actions isn't the heaviness of the keys but rather how the keys bounce back after being released. My Kawai MP7 is pretty sluggish in that regard but I manage to work around it. Fast repeated notes/chords is not its forte. A good concert grand key snaps right back. What digital piano actions are out there that perform likewise? I didn't think the CP4 was much better than my Kawai when I tried it out a couple of years ago.

In my experience, the Kawai MP7 is one of the *better* keyboards in this respect! Maybe not as responsive as a good grand, but better than the Yamaha GH boards, the current Privias, the Roland FA-08 and similar (which I think includes FP50, RD64 and probably DS88), probably Korg RH3 and definitely whatever it is they put in the Kross, the numerous TP100 based boards (i.e. some Nords and Kurzweils) and Kawai's own MP10, at least. The Fatar TP40 in the better Nords and Kurzweils are relatively quick, though they are less than ideal piano actions in other ways (though I haven't played the newest version in the NP3). The only other boards I've played that come to mind that might be quicker than the MP7 are the Yamaha action from the CP1/CP5 (not currently used in any board, AFAIK), and some of Rolands (like the FP7, FP7F, I think FP80). All of which are/were pricier and heavier to lug around than the MP7, I think.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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Interesting, Scott. I'll have to try out my friend's CP1 the next time I'm at his place and see how it compares to my Kawai. I guess I'm spoiled from playing on nice grand pianos for many years!

'57 Hammond B-3, '60 Hammond A100, Leslie 251, Leslie 330, Leslie 770, Leslie 145, Hammond PR-40

Trek II UC-1A

Alesis QSR

 

 

 

 

 

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... The Fatar TP40 in the better Nords and Kurzweils are relatively quick,

 

Well, TP-40L in Kurz and TP-40M in Nord Stage2ex are designed to be compromize actions allowing MIDI channel AFTERTOUCH.

 

... though they are less than ideal piano actions in other ways ...

 

Yes.

 

... (though I haven't played the newest version in the NP3).

 

Different story ´cause that´s Fatar´s top action NOT offering MIDI channel AFTERTOUCH (I don´t find support of AT in the specs) for the NORD Piano 3.

 

It WILL feel different because it´s a GRADED weighted hammer action and the others above aren´t.

Also,- the others above are dual-sensor actions only !

 

I doubt we´ll see any keyboard action feeling like a real grand (which one please ?) in a electronic and/or digital instument at all.

It´s not really necessary IMO since up to now it does nothing more than triggering samples or more or less perfect virtual piano models.

The triple sensor technology, when done right and improving repetitions, is some advantage IMO.

 

A.C.

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... (though I haven't played the newest version in the NP3).

 

Different story ´cause that´s Fatar´s top action NOT offering MIDI channel AFTERTOUCH (I don´t find support of AT in the specs) for the NORD Piano 3.

Correct. Though also, the earlier Nord Pianos (with other TP40 variants) didn't support aftertouch either, IIRC.

 

One thing I"m curious about in regards to the new (3-sensor) model is whether it responds any better to a thumbnail gliss, which did not work well on the older ones.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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Here is the complete listing of the RD-2000 V-Piano parameters:

TONE COLOR

LID

STRING RESONANCE

DAMPER RESONANCE

HAMMER NOISE

DUPLEX SCALE

KEY OFF RESONANCE

CABINET RESONANCE

SOUNDBOARD RESONATOR

DAMPER NOISE

KEY OFF NOISE

 

Here is the list of the V-Piano and V-Piano parameters:

SOUND LIFT

SOFT PEDAL SENSE

STRING RESONANCE

DAMPER RESONANCE

SOUNDBOARD RESONANCE

KEY OFF RESONANCE

UNISON TUNE

STRETCH TUNE

HAMMER HARDNESS

CROSS RESONANCE

DECAY TIME

TONE COLOR

DAMPING TIME

DAMPER NOISE LEVEL

 

Here is a list of the HP603, HP605, LX7 and LX17 parameters (Sound designer):

Lid 06

Key Off Noise Off, 110

Hammer Noise -202

Duplex Scale Off, 110

Full Scale String Res. Off, 110

Damper Resonance Off, 110

Key Off Resonance Off, 110

Cabinet Resonance Off, 110

Soundboard Type 15

Damper Noise Off, 110

 

 

You will not be able to use RD-2000 settings in the HP, LX or V-Pianos.

The individual string settings are not on these lists.

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... The Fatar TP40 in the better Nords and Kurzweils are relatively quick,

 

Well, TP-40L in Kurz and TP-40M in Nord Stage2ex are designed to be compromize actions allowing MIDI channel AFTERTOUCH.

 

... though they are less than ideal piano actions in other ways ...

 

Yes.

 

... (though I haven't played the newest version in the NP3).

 

Different story ´cause that´s Fatar´s top action NOT offering MIDI channel AFTERTOUCH (I don´t find support of AT in the specs) for the NORD Piano 3.

 

It WILL feel different because it´s a GRADED weighted hammer action and the others above aren´t.

Also,- the others above are dual-sensor actions only !

 

I doubt we´ll see any keyboard action feeling like a real grand (which one please ?) in a electronic and/or digital instument at all.

It´s not really necessary IMO since up to now it does nothing more than triggering samples or more or less perfect virtual piano models.

The triple sensor technology, when done right and improving repetitions, is some advantage IMO.

 

A.C.

 

Fatar has aftertouch for all their actions, even the latest and greatest piano actions.. its just an option/choice for manufactorers to add them..

 

 

Studiologic SL88 grand has that top knotch triple sensor action thats also in the nord piano 3 and combined it with aftertouch...

Korg Kronos 88, Yamaha Tyros5 (76), Integra 7, macbook pro/mainstage
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Dave, your review of the RD makes me think I will pull the trigger on this.

I've never had much love for Roland APs except for the V-piano, which I LOVE.

If this approaches that level of sound and playability, I'm there!

I also need master controller options that the CP4 doesn't have and the other routing options are most attractive.

Plus, metal is way better than plastic!

 

"I have constantly tried to deliver only products which withstand the closest scrutiny � products which prove themselves superior in every respect.�

Robert Bosch, 1919

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Dave, it seems like you and I have very similar AP/DP requirements and your earlier CP4 advice was on the money.

 

Plus, I'm looking at this for a pratice/studio to do double duty as an AP engine and master controller.

 

I was intrigued by the Korg Grandstagr, but that sluggish RH3 action is a deal breaker.....

"I have constantly tried to deliver only products which withstand the closest scrutiny � products which prove themselves superior in every respect.�

Robert Bosch, 1919

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that sluggish RH3 action is a deal breaker.....

 

That's a great way to describe it - "sluggish". Having an RD-800 and a Kronos2 73 next to each other in my studio, that is exactly how the Korg feels. Anytime I want to just "play" I always fire up the RD... it just feels awesome, especially compared to the Kronos.

 

As for the RD-2000, I already have my name on one. It does everything I wish the RD-800 did, and then some. I did hear that the difference between the PHA4 and PHA50 keys is noticeable. Not necessarily better... just different.

~ That guy

 

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I was intrigued by the Korg Grandstagr, but that sluggish RH3 action is a deal breaker.....
That's a great way to describe it - "sluggish". Having an RD-800 and a Kronos2 73 next to each other in my studio, that is exactly how the Korg feels.

While the RH3 in my SV1 is not the "quickest" feeling hammer action I've played, it's not the most sluggish either, and even though I prefer lighter feeling actions in general, I find I really enjoy playing the SV1. I haven't played the RH3 version of the Kronos, and I wonder if it feels different in that board, whether by virtue of the addition of the aftertouch (which the Grandstage would not have), or just that mysterious thing where some boards seem to have sounds that "connect" better to the keys. Or maybe a matter of unit-to-unit variation (and we do know that there have been some slightly different versions of the RH3 over the years).

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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Remember the days when the rack was imminent? ie. Motif ES Rack, or the JV/XV, or surprise of the season Integra-7. Would love to see a Kronos rack or desktop to use with the action of our choice. On a side note, some whining about the DM-12 action too... curious how quickly they'll release the desktop.

Yamaha CP88, Casio PX-560

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Seriously thinking about buying a RD 200O when it arrives. Sound clips sound good

Coming from an old KorgSGPro X (loved that action), and then to a Casio PX5S( action also felt good to me),so a pretty big step up I think! I am quite satisfied with the Casio,especially at that price,but the Roland seem to offer so much more in the way of a master controller.

Anybody know the release date?

 

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Roland RD-2000 preset #1 Stage Grand. Sounds good.

 

I don't like it. IMO Roland is still sticking to their idea of somehow delivering an idealized version of how a piano should sound instead of how one really sounds, and this makes it less realistic to my ears. This is a reason why I like the Nord approach to piano better. Also the notes on the upper half of the keyboard seem to decay too fast.

 

On the other hand, when the V-Piano debuted, I spoke to a Roland manager who told me the following story. They arranged for one-on-one sessions with some prominent pianists, both jazz and classical, to show them the V-Piano, because they really believed it to be a "game changer", "disruptor", etc. Many of those pianists told them they don't really like the sound. Then they asked

- What is it about the sound that you don't like?

Most of them couldn't answer that question, just that it doesn't sound 'right' somehow. But one of them could formulate his criticism very specifically. Then the Roland specialist jumped into the V-Piano editor and tweaked the sound to address every single gripe of his. When they asked the guy to try it again, his face lit up:

- Now I like it!

 

So I guess if I had an RD-2000 that's what I should do. It's true for all other sounds as well: the Nord is 'dumber' in that there are no menus of hundreds of options but it sounds 'right' out of the box, while the Roland delivers a lot of value if you spend a lot of time learning and programming it.

Life is subtractive.
Genres: Jazz, funk, pop, Christian worship, BebHop
Wishlist: 80s-ish (synth)pop, symph pop, prog rock, fusion, musical theatre
Gear: NS2 + JUNO-G. KingKORG. SP6 at church.

 

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48 pounds without on-board speakers? I'll have to stick with my 26 pound baby with on-board 4 way monitor speakers.

Harry Likas was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Find over 750 of Harry’s piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and jazz piano tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas

 

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The question is going to be does it sound and play like 48lbs of stage piano. And what sort of amplification does it require to prove it. There's a video I posted up the thread a bit that shows/hears it being amplified in the room. Whatever camera was being used... it does sound sweet solo. But I think I'm past gigging keys I can't one hand around the venue with a handle'd case. At home in another story. ;)

 

The PHA-50 is mainly a plastic folded action with wood veneer for show as the white keys drop. I'm eager to see what it feels like... if it's good, it must be in the ball park of the CP-4's NW-GH or the Kawai ES8's RHIII. Most Roland stage piano actions I've played in the past felt a bit gear like to me, like pushing a crank case - like the oil made the movement slow or something. I don't feel that on the Ivory Feel-G with Escapement on the Juno DS8 - but this action (to me) is too shallow. I haven't had any time on the newer models like the LX-17 or LX-7 (which are both sporting the PHA-50). Or the PHA-4 in the FP-30. It seems like Roland is all in on the PHA-50, it's all over their line on the better models - the FP-90 too.

 

[video:youtube]

 

This acoustic piano sound speaks well solo, at least that's the impression I'm getting even from this less than optimal video.

Yamaha CP88, Casio PX-560

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Roland RD-2000 preset #1 Stage Grand. Sounds good.

 

I don't like it. IMO Roland is still sticking to their idea of somehow delivering an idealized version of how a piano should sound instead of how one really sounds, and this makes it less realistic to my ears. This is a reason why I like the Nord approach to piano better. Also the notes on the upper half of the keyboard seem to decay too fast.

 

 

I agree with your impression. The Roland digitals sound to me like an abstraction of an acoustic piano. It's entirely possible that will work well live, especially in a clutter ensemble where you're not trying to fool anyone that there's an acoustic piano in the room.

 

But this RD-2000 to me sounds like an RD-800. I fail to hear anything about it that's appreciably better. I wish Roland offered more variety in their sounds. I never connected with Pianoteq until they released Model B. Prior to that, every other modelled variant just didn't sound right to me. I think people prize variety, expandability.

 

Busch.

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