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Gigging a C cabinet


WesG

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Any of you guys gig a C cabinet? I'm getting ready to take my workout to the next level.

 

Trying to figure out what I should do for my top two boards. I'm used to gigging spinets. The boards need to be also close as possible to me, and not too high. Or angled. Maybe something like Ken Rich's straddlers? See my profile pic.

 

What do you guys do with the locking cover? It's really in the way. Just take it off, and go naked in the van like a spinet?

 

I'm thinking about maybe some kind of rail solution for the top boards. I think Moe posted something with aluminium angle to Harmony-Central about 10 years ago, but I can't find it. Mine has quatrefoils FWIW.

 

Ideas would be appreciated.

 

Wes

Hammond: L111, M100, M3, BC, CV, Franken CV, A100, D152, C3, B3

Leslie: 710, 760, 51C, 147, 145, 122, 22H, 31H

Yamaha: CP4, DGX-620, DX7II-FD-E!, PF85, DX9

Roland: VR-09, RD-800

 

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I gigged a C3 in the 1970's...heavier than a B3, not sure by how much exactly...

 

I in fact devised a wooden frame for the top folded cover to support my RMI Electric piano...it needed a few inches on the bottom because that's where it's 1/4 inch out was.....

 CP-50, YC 73,  FP-80, PX5-S, NE-5d61, Kurzweil SP6, XK-3, CX-3, Hammond XK-3, Yamaha YUX Upright, '66 B3/Leslie 145/122

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I know it's a long shot - but do you have any pics? How hard was the RMI to play in that position?

 

I think I found the post of Moe's I was thinking about........reading this thread now: https://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2501615/all/The_stand_construction_thread

Hammond: L111, M100, M3, BC, CV, Franken CV, A100, D152, C3, B3

Leslie: 710, 760, 51C, 147, 145, 122, 22H, 31H

Yamaha: CP4, DGX-620, DX7II-FD-E!, PF85, DX9

Roland: VR-09, RD-800

 

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My friends may have some pics...I do not....The RMI sat a bit high but I stood while I played a lot in those days....sat 30% of the time.....I eventually put a Mimi Moog on top of the RMI.... I actually could not see the band facing in to the band on stage...I'd have to shift to the side to watch for ques!

 CP-50, YC 73,  FP-80, PX5-S, NE-5d61, Kurzweil SP6, XK-3, CX-3, Hammond XK-3, Yamaha YUX Upright, '66 B3/Leslie 145/122

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I see a couple of issues with Ken's straddlers

 

- Hard to stack a third board on top of a board on a straddler

- Straddler angle looks awkward for standing-up playing

- If used on a C cabinet, the fallboard sticks up, out and back...guaranteed this will cause problems with my conga player. All his site images show B cabinets, which have vertical-hinged fallboards

 

They do look like excellent pieces of equipment if that's what you need, though. Just not sure they will do the job for me.

Hammond: L111, M100, M3, BC, CV, Franken CV, A100, D152, C3, B3

Leslie: 710, 760, 51C, 147, 145, 122, 22H, 31H

Yamaha: CP4, DGX-620, DX7II-FD-E!, PF85, DX9

Roland: VR-09, RD-800

 

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BTW, this "third board" crap is making me wish I had pulled the trigger on the FA-08 last year! Tax time, maybe? I just can't get everything out of the CP4 I need for the gig. Or maybe a module of some kind?

Hammond: L111, M100, M3, BC, CV, Franken CV, A100, D152, C3, B3

Leslie: 710, 760, 51C, 147, 145, 122, 22H, 31H

Yamaha: CP4, DGX-620, DX7II-FD-E!, PF85, DX9

Roland: VR-09, RD-800

 

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Get a used Roland XV-3080...did the trick for me and my Nord E5D...

They can be found in the $300 range on Ebay..

 CP-50, YC 73,  FP-80, PX5-S, NE-5d61, Kurzweil SP6, XK-3, CX-3, Hammond XK-3, Yamaha YUX Upright, '66 B3/Leslie 145/122

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I've found the Ken Rich straddlers to be a good solution for occasional gigs where I want both Hammond and Clav D6 in the rig. They also work great in those odd occasions when I want to put a laptop on top of the Hammond within relatively easy reach, or at sessions where I want to have the Nord set up for quick access for any little synth or Mellotron bits, without having to take up any additional footprint in the tracking room to do it.

 

Two keyboards on top will be tricky no matter how you try to solve the problem - some sort of custom construction is likely your best bet.

 

I just let the fallboard flop back there, hasn't been an issue so far, and I usually end up stacking stuff on top of the Hammond in the van when I take out any rig this large, so I don't want to do without the protection. Probably because I only take this stuff out when it's a larger stage. If anything I appreciate the protection for the 1/4" out on the Clav, since I haven't bothered buying a right-angle 1/4" cable for the rare occasions that I take it out.

 

No pics but here's a video from a one-off I used them on last year, you can sort of see what's going on.

 

[video:youtube]

 

Another one, Ian's other keyboardist Kullen Fuchs is playing my C3 and his trumpet on this one while I frantically drive across town from another gig.

 

[video:youtube]

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The folding fall board will be in the way. Most unscrew the piano hinge and either ditch the top or put it back in place for moving.

 

I once built a pianet into a custom B-2 cab, underneath the bottom organ manual. That left a flat top for an analogue synth.

 

More recently, I got to play Eric Matlock's rig. It's a chop also, but you might be able to pick up some ideas.

 

http://www.hotrodmotm.com/images/misc/jellybreadrig.jpg

Moe

---

 

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I have thought about trying to replace the center fallboard hinge with some "open-ended" hinges - I'm sure this isn't the right term, but the type you find on a Rhodes lid. Seems like a good way to get the best of both worlds. Haven't gotten around to it because the big stuff only leaves the house about 2-3 times a year!
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Moe - thanks for the pic, there IS some food for thought in there. How is the top tier attached?

 

I dropped Ken Rich a line, just in case he's come up with a solution to the fallboard since we discussed it last. I doubt it, though. I mostly wanted to let him know about the spam on his site.

 

Danno - I have also thought of the same thing. I used Penn-Elcom break-away hinges on my chopped L100 (organ in the profile photo). They hold the back door on, which I use for cable management, since that compartment is nearly empty. I really like them, but I found them kind of finicky to get aligned right, and poor alignment makes them really, really hard to take on/off. Maybe this will be easier.

 

I'm currently leaning toward pulling off the folding top at the piano hinge, and putting a board across the organ to rest on the music desk. Then sit the piano on that, use my existing stacking setup (another block of wood) to hold the VR09. We'll see if that works, and gets things close enough to me. At least it will be a little taller. Kneeling to reach the organ has given me Housemaid's Knee. I'm not making that up.

 

Wes

Hammond: L111, M100, M3, BC, CV, Franken CV, A100, D152, C3, B3

Leslie: 710, 760, 51C, 147, 145, 122, 22H, 31H

Yamaha: CP4, DGX-620, DX7II-FD-E!, PF85, DX9

Roland: VR-09, RD-800

 

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My problem is reaching puts strain on your back with a set up like that unless you play standing. Even then it's a slight stretch.

"Danny, ci manchi a tutti. La E-Street Band non e' la stessa senza di te. Riposa in pace, fratello"

 

 

noblevibes.com

 

 

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When you go vertical like this, there WILL be some standing.

 

Best thing to do is jack your rig up the minimum so that you can reach the bottom board while standing. Then jack up your stool and pedals a bit so that you can sit on the high stool at least when you play organ.

 

My last attempt to solve a 2 manual organ rig ended in Mojo over PX-5S, with sliders. Not sure how I would get a wide keyboard underneath a console cab though.

Moe

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Jason - I sit and stand. Sit for organ-centric and stand for everything else. I would stand all night if I could, but I just can't play organ for long standing up. It's too hard on my back.

 

Moe - your comments about jacking things up is interesting. I've had this thing on dollies so that I can roll it around the shop. It's very comfortable to play like that standing up! I bet I'm taller than Steve Walsh.

 

I saw your PX5S + Mojo rig. It was definitely interesting. I'm going to have to do some playing for sure. The good news is, my band rehearses weekly(!) at my house. Lots of opportunity to beta-test. I'll keep the old rig in the van until I'm happy with the new one.

 

Still trying to figure out how to switch a 760 and a 147 from the same halfmoon without adding relays. The contact order in an MEE switch is ridiculous. I currently have Chorale, one of each, Tremolo as my three switch positions. :/ Was trying to avoid complexity!

Hammond: L111, M100, M3, BC, CV, Franken CV, A100, D152, C3, B3

Leslie: 710, 760, 51C, 147, 145, 122, 22H, 31H

Yamaha: CP4, DGX-620, DX7II-FD-E!, PF85, DX9

Roland: VR-09, RD-800

 

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It's always a juggle Wes. I play standing most of the time unless it's a soul gig or I have to play a lot of in depth parts. I know what you mean though.

"Danny, ci manchi a tutti. La E-Street Band non e' la stessa senza di te. Riposa in pace, fratello"

 

 

noblevibes.com

 

 

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Hmm, speaking of Steve Walsh......he made a three-tier thing work for him, without losing the lid. But I don't have any methamphetamines.

 

88d7fb3eba641511d792e87eec1b4454.jpg

 

His mic placement also gives me ideas. I have some 19" goosenecks, and a problem getting my boom where I want it. I might have to go on the other side, though, which is worse for unscrewing clips. My upper left cheek block is a Trek-II TP-2B.

 

Wes

Hammond: L111, M100, M3, BC, CV, Franken CV, A100, D152, C3, B3

Leslie: 710, 760, 51C, 147, 145, 122, 22H, 31H

Yamaha: CP4, DGX-620, DX7II-FD-E!, PF85, DX9

Roland: VR-09, RD-800

 

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I gigged a C3 in the 1970's...heavier than a B3, not sure by how much exactly...

 

I in fact devised a wooden frame for the top folded cover to support my RMI Electric piano...it needed a few inches on the bottom because that's where it's 1/4 inch out was.....

 

I also gigged with a C3 in the early 70's. Put the whole organ on a home made dolly made out of 3/4 ply with high quality wheels. Cut the back panel in half so the you could see under the organ. Four of us lifted it into the van. Never do that again...

 

Here is a shot of me at 16 playing that very C3. I used to have my MiniMoog on top of it. Had a Clav and a Rhodes or Wurlie along for the ride as well. The C3 ran through a 122, then miked into an Ampeg V4 stack. The Wurlie, Moog, and Clav went directly into the V4. Had a little four channel Radio Shack mixer. Now that rig was loud!

 

(Check out the very fasionable watch on the top cheekblock)

 

http://i1232.photobucket.com/albums/ff374/hammonddave/DJ%20at%20BCC%20Dharma%20Gig_zps8pdsfvwu.jpg

'55 and '59 B3's; Leslies 147, 122, 21H; MODX 7+; NUMA Piano X 88; Motif XS7; Mellotrons M300 and M400’s; Wurlitzer 206; Gibson G101; Vox Continental; Mojo 61; Launchkey 88 Mk III; Korg Module; B3X; Model D6; Moog Model D

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On my C, I removed the piano hinge and replaced it with - well I don't know what the name for it is, but it's sort of a split hinge where there's no cap on the hinge pin. When you slide the fallboard to the right, the part of the hinge that's attached to the fallboard takes the pin with it, and once it's clear of the part of the hinge that's attached to the console. you can lift the fallboard away. And when the fallboard is down (organ is closed up), the end blocks of the organ keep the fallboard in the hinge. So I've got four or six of these little hinges in place of the long piano hinge. With the fallboard removed, this takes out a good 3-4" of height, and now the upper keyboard can sit flat on top of the organ console.

 

I believe the C is heavier than the B, but the C is also less deep. A C cabinet will fit through a narrower doorway than a B will. Roll-R-Kari's are essential, and I removed the lower part of the back on my console, so you can grab onto the lower part of the shelf (like you can on a B).

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HammondDave - wow, that must have been quite the rig!!! :) :) I have a set of ROKs, an 8 foot ramp, and a full-sized van...loading should not be an issue, although a C cabinet will probably catch the lip of the van door due to ramp angle. I solve that problem with spinets right now by simply holding my end of the ROK up so that the organ stays level and only two wheels roll. If that doesn't work.........I'll find another way to easily roll in. A winch, perhaps.

 

I've also thought about cutting the bottom of the back off (or making a replacement back). I think I will leave it in place, though. I'm thinking about the acoustics of the stage, I like to keep my area as quiet as possible.

 

OBDave - are you SURE a B cabinet is wider than a C cabinet? I may have to get out my tape measure....I was thinking both cabinet designs had their width fixed by the dimensions of the manuals, tone generator, and chorus generator (AFAIK they never shrunk the cabs after introducing the vibrato organs). I suppose the TG could be closer to the manuals in a C cabinet.

 

And thanks for the hinge suggestion!!!! That sounds really great. I am going to try and chase down some of those!

 

You guys that cut your backs - did you add any extra hardware, or were the thumb screws enough to keep everything in place? ....... I guess I could copy the B cabinet design, with the little blocks. Actually, I bet I could use my B3 cabinet back to test the concept before spending any money....

Hammond: L111, M100, M3, BC, CV, Franken CV, A100, D152, C3, B3

Leslie: 710, 760, 51C, 147, 145, 122, 22H, 31H

Yamaha: CP4, DGX-620, DX7II-FD-E!, PF85, DX9

Roland: VR-09, RD-800

 

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They're called "lift-off hinges". I'm going to measure the existing hinge and google the hell out of these. Hopefully I can find some with the same hole offsets.

 

http://www.hardwaresource.com/images/products/814320_Separated_View.jpg

Hammond: L111, M100, M3, BC, CV, Franken CV, A100, D152, C3, B3

Leslie: 710, 760, 51C, 147, 145, 122, 22H, 31H

Yamaha: CP4, DGX-620, DX7II-FD-E!, PF85, DX9

Roland: VR-09, RD-800

 

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Wes here are the C-3 Specs:

 

Model C-3

 

Production Years: Jan 1955 to 1974

Synopsis: Take a B-3's guts and put it in the C type church model case.

Cabinet Size: With pedal keyboard and bench: 48.75x46x49.5 (WHD, inches), 450lbs with bench and pedalboard

Finish: Walnut/Oak and speciality finishes. Later version in both finishes less quatrefoil. US and UK cases are slightly different.

Manuals: Swell and Great, 61 keys each.

Pedals: 25-note radiating, detachable.

Controls: 9 presets and 2 sets of 9 drawbars for each manual. 2 adjustable drawbars (16' and 8') for pedals.

Amp/Output: Internal preamp only.

"Danny, ci manchi a tutti. La E-Street Band non e' la stessa senza di te. Riposa in pace, fratello"

 

 

noblevibes.com

 

 

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I did find a picture though you can't really see the C very well, I'll try and find another. This was circa '73 with my poodle big hair look: my C

 

My C #2

 

My C#3

 

As you can see in My C#3 I ran the Organ straight through a 200W Marshall in '74 for the Jon Lord sound if you look closely to the stack in the corner of this shot, we did a lot of Purple for a bit back then....I switched back fairly soon after though to my 122... Straight was not my cup of tea!

 CP-50, YC 73,  FP-80, PX5-S, NE-5d61, Kurzweil SP6, XK-3, CX-3, Hammond XK-3, Yamaha YUX Upright, '66 B3/Leslie 145/122

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OBDave - are you SURE a B cabinet is wider than a C cabinet?

Well dang, now you've got me doubting myself. My recollection is that the cabinets are the same width, but that the C is less deep than the B (front to back), but you're right. I don't know how that'd be possible for the reason you state. I'ma rescind that assertion for now.

 

You guys that cut your backs - did you add any extra hardware, or were the thumb screws enough to keep everything in place? .......

My back had a lot of water damage towards the bottom, so I had only a few qualms taking a saw to it. But yeah, I cut it off flush where it meets the bottom of the generator shelf, and the two thumbscrews hold it in place. Keep in mind that I haven't gigged with it in about a decade, and when I did, it was covered in a form-fitting C console organ blanket and then strapped to Roll-R-Karis, and that probably added a lot of support. There's not a lot of stress on those two thumb screws.

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I just measured my B-3 and C-3. Both cabinets are 28.75" depth give or take a quarter inch.

 

The specs given above seem to include pedals in the depth.

 

Now a set of Roll R Carries for a B-3 are wider than those for a C-3. That's because the legs are pushed out to the corners of the cab on the B design.

Moe

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  • 6 months later...

Quick return to this thread, I've been playing the organ with the fallboard completely removed, as I haven't solved that problem elegantly yet.

 

I've bumped into a funny issue, though - ROKs block access to the outlet box hole! It looks like I will have to make myself a half-back after all, or cut the original one. Decisions, decisions.

 

Wes

Hammond: L111, M100, M3, BC, CV, Franken CV, A100, D152, C3, B3

Leslie: 710, 760, 51C, 147, 145, 122, 22H, 31H

Yamaha: CP4, DGX-620, DX7II-FD-E!, PF85, DX9

Roland: VR-09, RD-800

 

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Why cut anything? You don't need the outlet hole. I gigged a C3 for years with B3 ROKs. Since the leslie and power were usually behind me anyway. I just took the cables out that way. They are easy enough to keep out of the way. If you use the pedal board you can keep the cables on the right side of it.
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Hmm, interesting idea. I play with my Leslie on the left and stage power to the front (see avatar). Maybe I can route the cables in the little channel behind the pedal contact assembly so that they stay out of my way on the way to the Leslie. I won't play with cables under foot or in the way of my bench sliding. I move a lot.

 

Hammond: L111, M100, M3, BC, CV, Franken CV, A100, D152, C3, B3

Leslie: 710, 760, 51C, 147, 145, 122, 22H, 31H

Yamaha: CP4, DGX-620, DX7II-FD-E!, PF85, DX9

Roland: VR-09, RD-800

 

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