C. Bechstein digital division releasing Kontakt Instrument

[ElmerJFudd]

Oktober 1st, 2016

 

C. Bechstein Digital GmbH, Berlin/ Germany, September 29th, 2016 (ictw) Today the manufacturer of the highly acclaimed Bechstein Pianos C. Bechstein Pianofortefabrik AG announce the establishement of C. Bechstein Digital GmbH and availability of their first DAW oriented Instrument, the C. Bechstein Digital Grand from Oct.1st, 2016. http://www.bechstein-digital.com/

 

http://emusician.com/gear/1332/c-bechstein-digital-grand-software-instrument-to-be-released-oct-1st/59969

 

In contrast to the common approach recording a grand piano for sampling the C. Bechstein team preferred a rather minimalistic method. Instead of recording dozens of microphone signals, which usually are mixed together at the postproduction stage much later in the process, they decided to focus on recording from just 3 classic listening positions. These were captured with only 5 microphones (24 bit/ 192 kHZ, Swiss Made Merging Technologies converters, http://www.merging.com/products/networked-audio). An additional stereo signal capturing the direct and close aura of the grand piano also can be dialed in fully in phase from the software instrument.

[stillplaying]

I'm here reading the thread now but it's not what I thought.

 

The Bechstein crew have collaborated with Casio to produce the GP series - I've played on the 300 and the 500. What I'm hoping for is a version of Kontakt in a hardware keyboard - with the full library included and the ability to run third party stuff (from a USB drive or whatever).

 

I don't mind if I have to connect a monitor for things like mapping sounds to zones - but I don't want to use a laptop or a desktop to host Kontakt.

[ElmerJFudd]

I am under the impression that Bechstein's main focus in the current GP series are the keys themselves. The technology behind the action, sensors, firmware is Casio's. The sampling project of the "Hamburg" sound source was also done by Casio to conform with their AIR sound engine.

 

From Keyboard Magazine, which I assume got copy from Casio...

 

"At the heart of the GP-500 and GP-300 lies a completely new keyboard action, designed in cooperation with the German piano manufacturer C. Bechstein. Dubbed the Natural Grand Hammer Action Keyboard by Casio, this action pairs spruce piano keys to a moving mechanism that actually throws a hammer in the same way an acoustic piano does. This combination of real piano keys and surfaces paired with a triple-sensor, moving hammer system really does make a world of difference for the player. Often, digital pianos suffer from actions that are either too light or too firm and springy. But here, Casio has struck a winning combination that puts the player one step closer to the experience of playing a moving, mechanical instrument. Kudos to Casio for partnering with C. Bechstein, a recognized leader in piano manufacturing for more than 150 years.

 

That's how I read it anyway. I'm sure Mike Martin can clarify, not that it's horribly important who did what. It's how it plays and sounds that matters.

 

Some forum members have already done little projects like sampled their Kontakt player instruments into Kronos, Motif, or Kurzweil formats. But it does take some effort. The Kurzweil has a Bosendorfer and a Yamaha sample library on board - believe what they refer to as a German and Japanese grands.

[Michiel]

Soundcloud demo's are already up:

 

[DulceLabs.com]

I'm here reading the thread now but it's not what I thought.

 

The Bechstein crew have collaborated with Casio to produce the GP series - I've played on the 300 and the 500. What I'm hoping for is a version of Kontakt in a hardware keyboard - with the full library included and the ability to run third party stuff (from a USB drive or whatever).

 

I don't mind if I have to connect a monitor for things like mapping sounds to zones - but I don't want to use a laptop or a desktop to host Kontakt.

 

Sounds like you want something like the Neko or StudioBlade, but to me they are really over-priced and awkward.

 

I think the closest thing you will get at this point would be something like a decked-out Windows Surface Pro and use that to hose the software.

 

 

[EscapeRocks]

I'm here reading the thread now but it's not what I thought.

 

The Bechstein crew have collaborated with Casio to produce the GP series - I've played on the 300 and the 500. What I'm hoping for is a version of Kontakt in a hardware keyboard - with the full library included and the ability to run third party stuff (from a USB drive or whatever).

 

I don't mind if I have to connect a monitor for things like mapping sounds to zones - but I don't want to use a laptop or a desktop to host Kontakt.

 

 

 

I think the closest thing you will get at this point would be something like a decked-out Windows Surface Pro and use that to hose the software.

 

 

Exactly

[ElmerJFudd]

The velocity layers sounds quite good. Transitions are pretty smooth, and the extended tails sound legit. It's a warm sound, but can apparently ping when poked. Worth a look if they'll do a demo mode.

[DulceLabs.com]

I'm here reading the thread now but it's not what I thought.

 

The Bechstein crew have collaborated with Casio to produce the GP series - I've played on the 300 and the 500. What I'm hoping for is a version of Kontakt in a hardware keyboard - with the full library included and the ability to run third party stuff (from a USB drive or whatever).

 

I don't mind if I have to connect a monitor for things like mapping sounds to zones - but I don't want to use a laptop or a desktop to host Kontakt.

 

 

 

I think the closest thing you will get at this point would be something like a decked-out Windows Surface Pro and use that to hose the software.

 

 

Exactly

 

Freudian slip.

[marino]

Mmmmm.

 

From the Soundcloud demos, it seems that the dynamics are done very well - no audible switching in the transitions. Sound is very detailed and clear.

 

However, it can become brittle in the middle-highs, even a little harsh at high dynamic levels. Also, I hear slight chorusing.

 

I seem to prefer the "Top" mic position, as it sounds rounder and smoother to my ears.

 

Waiting for more demos.

[Michiel]

Website is also up. This seems like a real thought trough instruments.

 

Marino, I agree that it sounds a bit harsh sometimes, but seeing what you all can edit in a nice way, it might be that that can be fixed.

 

And 26 velocity layers....

[ElmerJFudd]

It's true that Mic placement makes a difference, with the acoustic piano an awesome example of that. I tend to not care for the close Mic positioning - it's unrealistic to me because I never hear the piano this way as a player or from the audience. The ambient sound is usually my preferrence for solo piano, maybe some player perspective mixed in for clarity. I can see why people might like the close Mic for cutting in a band mix live - even in a DAW session, but I still prefer player perspective for this with a little choice EQ.

 

Side note, the only Bechstein I've played often was one we had in college. A beautiful instrument. I found the action heavy yet precise - very easy to speak with dynamics on and yes - it cut more than any Steinway I've sat at, even in a large room. So there was some upper midrange clarity in the instrument that you may be referring to as brittle which I'm guessing is in the source recordings - as opposed to having been added by programming or the AD process.

[Reezekeys]

Close perspective is better, IMO, for playing gigs with. I've said it before here when your speakers are 3-5 feet away from you, you don't want the sound coming out of them to be the sound of a piano that's 3-5 feet away. It's easy to use a convolution reverb to take a close-recorded piano and make it sound farther away not the opposite, though.

 

I read on the website that the samples were recorded using M-S technique. Unless I'm misunderstanding, in theory this should make for very good mono compatibility for you mono fans!

[ElmerJFudd]

agreed. that's the context where the cutting clarity of the strings and sound board up close makes sense.

[JakeJackson]

Does anyone know what keyboard they are using in the overview of the features on the Interface Walkthrough tab at https://www.bechstein-digital.com/en/#tab-id-2 ?

[vanderSchoot]

Does anyone know what keyboard they are using in the overview of the features on the Interface Walkthrough tab at https://www.bechstein-digital.com/en/#tab-id-2 ?

Native instruments Komplete Kontrol S88

[zephonic]

Side note, the only Bechstein I've played often was one we had in college. A beautiful instrument. I found the action heavy yet precise - very easy to speak with dynamics on and yes - it cut more than any Steinway I've sat at, even in a large room.

 

My experience is different. Both my mom and dad have Bechstein grands, and they always felt more gentle and romantic than the Steinways/Bosies/Yamahas I encountered.

 

[vanderSchoot]

Side note, the only Bechstein I've played often was one we had in college. A beautiful instrument. I found the action heavy yet precise - very easy to speak with dynamics on and yes - it cut more than any Steinway I've sat at, even in a large room.

 

My experience is different. Both my mom and dad have Bechstein grands, and they always felt more gentle and romantic than the Steinways/Bosies/Yamahas I encountered.

As a pianotuner i have tuned countless of Bechsteins, Bosendorfers and Steinways.

I have rarely tuned a mediocre Bosendorfer....all are good - outstanding.

Steinway have some really ackward feeling and sounding exemplares now and then, but the signature sound is there and the top exemplares are beautifull.

 

Bechstein however have some absolute horrific models considering the pricetag (seventies, eighties) with phasing string problems and a thin sounding uninspiring character.

But there are also extremely beautifull Bechsteins that have this romantic hypnotising tone that makes them unique soundwise.

 

Of all the brands (maybe Yamaha too....) it is hard to give an overall opinion about Bechstein,because everything is out there, varying from really bad to the best of the best.

[zephonic]

Bechstein however have some absolute horrific models considering the pricetag (seventies, eighties) with phasing string problems and a thin sounding uninspiring character.

But there are also extremely beautifull Bechsteins that have this romantic hypnotising tone that makes them unique soundwise.

 

Funny you should say that, as my dad bought a 1970's Bechstein and I felt it was never as nice as the old 1890's Bechstein my mom has. While the tone is good, it lacks dynamics. And the action is superlight, too.

 

[Geoff Grace]

Soundcloud demo's are already up:

 

The first demo says, "SIDE-Mic + AURA, Mixed With Some Player-Noises" and an amusing idea occurred to me: what if someone did a Keith Jarrett DP, complete with player noises?

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[vanderSchoot]

Soundcloud demo's are already up:

 

The first demo says, "SIDE-Mic + AURA, Mixed With Some Player-Noises" and an amusing idea occurred to me: what if someone did a Keith Jarrett DP, complete with player noises?

 

Best,

 

Geoff

Reminds me of a story about a guitar salesman....

I guy wants the same guitar as Steve Lukather, same amp, strings everything......

Comes back after a week and says ''I still don't have the sound of Steve Lukather''....''Did you sell my the right equipment ?''

 

Salesman carefully...'' there is more involved in sounding just like Steve Lukather''

 

[stillplaying]

@Geoff hahahahahaha - yes a KJ Piano VST with drop down temperament options that included "a bit touchy" and "foul" along with "equal".

[Michiel]

Anybody bought it yet?

[Steve Nathan]

what if someone did a Keith Jarrett DP, complete with player noises?

 

Getting in line to buy the Kontakt Errol Garner

[macca]

Resurrecting this thread to see if anyone gave the Bechstein digital a shot and can share their thoughts.

 

Thanks everyone

 

(I should add, I'm looking for something to use in a rock/pop mix, not in a classical solo piece).

[Fleer]

I did and I love it. Bechstein sound, immaculate. Great to have a real big name piano company support their own digital emu. Two versions in one, large and small. Lots of sound tweaking too. I really love this one.

[macca]

thanks for sharing your input, appreciated.

 

To derail for a moment, are you still loving the Embertone Steinway D, too?

[Fleer]

Oh yes, thats the best sampled Steinway I have. And apparently well get an update with half-pedaling quite soon. I also love those mic choices, allowing you to pick different sounds as you go along. Not as many sound editing possibilities as the Bechstein Digital, but man, its a fine Steinway.

[Mark Schmieder]

The dollar is super-strong against the euro at the moment, and I was very impressed by the jazz and impressionists demos, so I bought it and am downloading it now (full version).

 

Of the demos, I thought the top mics on the jazz sounded the best of all. Best balanced timbre and dynamics and articulation, with no harshness, boom, or any weird spatial stuff.

[MalH]

An excellent instrument: very detailed and cleanly sampled (no hiss), very even tone, fantastically playable. I prefer a Steinway sound but this is a great complement for my Vintage D and Ravenscroft.

[Mark Schmieder]

Almost four months later, I am finally able to review this library. I couldn't run it properly until I installed more RAM yesterday and an external SSD earlier this week.

 

I've only worked with it on one piece so far, but spent three to four hours last night tweaking it and seeing what it could do, as well as comparing in great detail with True Keys German, my previous top choice for Bechstein (before that, it was Galaxy's library).

 

This one blows them all away and is easily in the top three of all current piano libraries of any sound source, period. It is incredibly versatile due to well-thought-out programmable parameters, but the stock sound by itself would do fine with mix-level production. The GUI of the library is sufficient however, for pre-producing the sound enough to minimize the need for downstream work.

 

This piano cuts through without being bright, and is warm and dark but never muffled, with a bit of weight behind it but not so thunderous like a Ravenscroft or Fazioli. It won't be the piano for every task, but I find that it works especially well in pop, where a Yamaha might normally be used, and in pieces with huge dynamic range that are mostly softer playing, along with lots of pedaling and sustains.

 

The Piano World forum has probably spoken more about this library than other forums, as it appeals especially to players (many people only compose and render MIDI that wasn't really played by hand -- nothing wrong with that per se, but it presents different challenges to libraries).

 

As with the new Synchron Steinway B from VSL, this one really sounds and feels like being at (or near) the piano as opposed to being a recording of a piano.

 

There are very few libraries that win many favours at Piano World, but these two are amongst the ones that aren't universally loved but at least are getting the kind of attention for realism and playability that normally is reserved just for Pianoteq (modeled, but not appealing to some due to timbre and/or some remaining issues in certain frequency ranges).