"Old" vs. "Vintage"

[p90jr]

I was just killing time (I have a magazine deadline to meet, so of course I feel like taking breaks) by browsing through the "vintage" guitar section at Reverb . com.

 

"Vintage" as they define it is anything from 1800 - 1979. That's cool, when I see people arguing something from 1991 is "vintage" because it's 25 years old, it pisses me off (though it might meet the definition of "classic" that used to be applied to cars, which should also be revised).

 

Anyway, when I came across a couple of Harmony Stratotones... a friend found one at a thrift store when we were in college for $15 and it was his sofa guitar, and I'd play it and get a kick out of it... these were listed for over $2,000, each. Has someone more famous than Rick Holmstrom or Blake Mills played one onstage or something recently?

 

If I was spending $2000 on a guitar, it would be a Suhr or a Pensa or a Melançon or a Koll or a Collings or a Hamer or a Fano or something, used.

 

The guys who pop up with old weird guitars like this doing cool things with them always got them for nothing when nobody cared about them... that's what's funniest to me.

 

As cool and neat as they are, and as awesome as the two guys I mentioned above and Junior Watson make them sound, there's just not $2,000 worth of craftsmanship there to me, personally. As an instrument, and as a tool, are they worth that much?

 

I just question the rationale of the market. Everything old isn't a great instrument. I guess that just might be what someone is asking for them (anything similar seemed overpriced to me, too... anything with strings and a pickup seems to be worth $199 in someone's estimation, now) and they won't get it.

[Bartholomew]

A friend had one of those in the Fifties and I always thought it was junk but would be willing to buy one for $15 if it was in really good shape...maybe.

 

Useless except as a beginner guitar IMO. Sucker born every minute. I trashed a 68 Fender case as it was ruined from use on the road - have seen them on eBay for several hundred dollars asking price probably not in much better condition.

 

Sheeple are sometimes fools and I wonder how they got their bucks being dumb pushovers. Buying into myth and stupidity...must be mostly with inherited $$$.

[Baldwin Funster]

Gibs, Fends, Ricks, and other brands that are obviously quality players are vintage upto the end of the norlin and blacface era. Obviously this would be different years for different brands and in the eye of the beholder. Sorry but tiesco and even most ibanez dont make the cut for me. Silvertone borders but only fora silvertone lover. The others are mostly old unplayable junk. I didnt want them in 1977 when the were 10 years old and i dont want them now. They didnt get better they just got older.

[Scott Fraser]

That Harmony Stratotone didn't get better with age. It was a piece of s**t when it was new & it's a piece of s**t now, except much older. Worth maybe $150 because of sentimental value & good for hanging on the wall. Anybody paying $2k for it is either a deluded fool or just too wealthy to make intelligent decisions.

[whitefang]

We get into similar discussions on the TCM boards. There's been no settlement yet over what makes a movie a "classic" and which flicks are just old. Some feel any movie made from the birth of the industry up until 1960 makes a movie a "classic" and others feel the "quality" of a movie makes it "classic" , even if it's just 15 years old or so.

 

With guitars, I suppose it can be just as subjective. Possibly, in one opinion, a 50 year old(or older) Gibson Les Paul or Fender Telecaster can be considered "vintage" or "classic", while the same age Harmony, Silvertone or Kay might just be thought of as old and useless.

Whitefang

[JuJu Kwan]

I think guitars are to br played. If I had a $25000 guitar I would be afraid to take it any place. Maybe someday in the future I may feel different.

[p90jr]

I mean... on what planet?

 

https://reverb.com/item/2968893-1954-harmony-stratotone-h-44

[p90jr]

I'm just remember what (I believe) the late, great Hubert Sumlin said in an interview:

 

"These well-off looking white boys come up to me holding old, cheap department store guitars and say 'Look, I play the same guitar you do!' And I tell them 'Son, that's what we played back when we couldn't afford to get anything better. I play Les Pauls and Fenders, now.'"

 

Stuff like this is all the rage in New Orleans, where a lot of people are pretending they're Tom Waits in 1977. And I like Tom Waits, but he's enough Tom Waits for me.

[Scott Fraser]

I mean... on what planet?

https://reverb.com/item/2968893-1954-harmony-stratotone-h-44

 

On the planet of delusion where the passage of time magically renders junk into gold.

[Winston Psmith]

Getting back to the OP, I think part of the problem is that the word "vintage" is often used when what's really meant is "collectable", or something slightly more accurate.

 

Case in point; I had a pile of 'vintage' pedals, left over from collecting throughout the 80's & 90's. None of them were older than 1983/84, AFAIK, and thus fell short of the 'vintage' mark, at least by date. I was more than happy to sell them off for the vastly inflated 'vintage' value they'd acquired, after 15-20 years of good use.

 

The weirdest thing I had that became collectable was my Gibson Corvus II. I'll let you look them up; ugliest damned thing Gibson ever made, and yes, I've seen the Reverse Flying V. Bought it in the early 90's for $140/145, and sold it for $400, a few years later. Like most of the cheap-o Guitars in this thread, there is no good reason for the Corvus to be a collector's item, not even for the Gibson name on the headstock. Just fugly . . .

[Larryz]

For old and vintage I'm more into re-issues. They are brand new and way cheaper than the real thing and you can take them out on the road if you want to...I like the 50's and 60's stuff.

[Baldwin Funster]

For old and vintage I'm more into re-issues. They are brand new and way cheaper than the real thing and you can take them out on the road if you want to...I like the 50's and 60's stuff.

 

Spinoff debate. Maybe someone should start a new topic. Are reissues just like the real thing or do they just LOOK like the vintage piece but are missing the character that made the vintage piece famous. In my experience the 2nd situation is what ive found. You wouldnt know if you havent had the vintage piece for comparison. Hence the never ending debate at the Les Paul forum over historics vs real bursts. Or the Marshall forum about plexi reissues. And the Keyboard corner about tonewheels vs clonewheels.

[Scott Fraser]

Spinoff debate. Maybe someone should start a new topic. Are reissues just like the real thing or do they just LOOK like the vintage piece but are missing the character that made the vintage piece famous. In my experience the 2nd situation is what ive found. You wouldnt know if you havent had the vintage piece for comparison. Hence the never ending debate at the Les Paul forum over historics vs real bursts. Or the Marshall forum about plexi reissues. And the Keyboard corner about tonewheels vs clonewheels.

 

I think the reissues update what people demand to be modern, such as 5 way switching on Strats. Nobody would accept a 3 way switch on a Strat now, regardless of how authentic it would be. And truss rod adjustment requiring removing the neck? I don't think so.

 

[Larryz]

For old and vintage I'm more into re-issues. They are brand new and way cheaper than the real thing and you can take them out on the road if you want to...I like the 50's and 60's stuff.

 

Spinoff debate. Maybe someone should start a new topic. Are reissues just like the real thing or do they just LOOK like the vintage piece but are missing the character that made the vintage piece famous. In my experience the 2nd situation is what ive found. You wouldnt know if you havent had the vintage piece for comparison. Hence the never ending debate at the Les Paul forum over historics vs real bursts. Or the Marshall forum about plexi reissues. And the Keyboard corner about tonewheels vs clonewheels.

 

I have two re-issues both white with red tortoise shell pick guards. True to specs made in USA and even come with the original flat wound 10's loaded on for you. They also have the original strap re-created. They duplicate the sound and feel of the originals as close as Fender can do the job to include the pickup winding wire, tuners, woods, magnets, switches, whammy's, necks, fretboards, bridge, etc. I would swap out the bridges for a Mustang bridge if I ever wanted to mod them, but I would also save the one that came with the guitar. The Jag also has the original string damper that most guys never used. They both include the bridge covers. The detail is genuine and they sound and play like the originals, which I have buddies that own them for comparison. Be careful if buying a used one without receipt as they make foreign jobs that sell for half the price...

[Larryz]

Spinoff debate. Maybe someone should start a new topic. Are reissues just like the real thing or do they just LOOK like the vintage piece but are missing the character that made the vintage piece famous. In my experience the 2nd situation is what ive found. You wouldnt know if you havent had the vintage piece for comparison. Hence the never ending debate at the Les Paul forum over historics vs real bursts. Or the Marshall forum about plexi reissues. And the Keyboard corner about tonewheels vs clonewheels.

 

I think the reissues update what people demand to be modern, such as 5 way switching on Strats. Nobody would accept a 3 way switch on a Strat now, regardless of how authentic it would be. And truss rod adjustment requiring removing the neck? I don't think so.

 

Believe it or not Scott I have a Strat with an EMG drop in with a 3way LOL! Unlike the originals that came with 3 single coils, mine is a later double fat Strat with two humbuckers. When using the 5way on the stock HH pick guard with a 5 way, there was very little difference in the 2 and 4 position unlike the SSS that gets great Strat sounds like those heard in Sultans of Swing. The 3 way works great with the HH, just like any LP or 335, SG, ES-175, etc. +1 I know this is a segue from the 3way original concept you're talking about...but I guess that it's still relevant when comparing the new and the old and the vintage...

 

ps. I forgot to mention that this Strat has a volume knob for each pickup just like the Gibson models mentioned, along with one master tone knob (which I really like when blending the neck and bridge pups)...and I customized the customized by swapping for a little milder 80/81 neck/bridge pickup setup instead of the two matching ones that the normal 81/81 setups came with.

[J. Dan]

I think I still have a "vintage" Bentley Series 10 that I bought for $90. I'll list it for $2000. It has a very unique feature that you don't need a whammy bar, you can just bend the neck.

[whitefang]

I mean... on what planet?

 

https://reverb.com/item/2968893-1954-harmony-stratotone-h-44

 

The weirdest thing to me is that it seems to have what looks like a "pick-up switch", but ony ONE pick-up!

 

At least a similar looking switch on my old '67 Kalamazoo served that purpose.

 

On the TV show "American Pickers", you often see and hear people with old structures and garages filled with useless junk referred to as "collectors" when really they're just hoarders. In THAT sense then, my wife is a shoe and clothing "collector"!

 

Anything (IMHO) is usually called a "collector's item" when the buyer can't admit he wasted his money.

Whitefang

[Baldwin Funster]

I mean... on what planet?

https://reverb.com/item/2968893-1954-harmony-stratotone-h-44

 

On the planet of delusion where the passage of time magically renders junk into gold.

 

Pretty ugly headstock repair on that one. That knocks it down from being worth MAYBE $125 (for someone with a sentimental attachment) down to 50 bux if it sounds cool. Even 50 bux would be high.

[Scott Fraser]

Believe it or not Scott I have a Strat with an EMG drop in with a 3way LOL! Unlike the originals that came with 3 single coils, mine is a later double fat Strat with two humbuckers. When using the 5way on the stock HH pick guard with a 5 way, there was very little difference in the 2 and 4 position unlike the SSS that gets great Strat sounds like those heard in Sultans of Swing. The 3 way works great with the HH, just like any LP or 335, SG, ES-175, etc. +1 I know this is a segue from the 3way original concept you're talking about...but I guess that it's still relevant when comparing the new and the old and the vintage...

 

Sounds like the original 5 way was providing various combinations of split coils in positions 2 & 4. I have a solid body Taylor with 2 humbuckers & a 5 way, which does a wide variety of very non-LP-like splits, & basically sounds unlike any Gibson or any other dual humbucker guitar I've heard.

[Larryz]

^Yep, the 5way set up using Fender's S1 Switching on the two humbuckers allowed for coil splitting and going from doubles to singles to a single coil in combination with the double front or back. However in the double coil and single coil modes there was very little difference in sound in positions 2 and 4 due to the pickup spacing being further apart than the Stock single coil Strat. So I like the straight up wiring in Humbucker mode with a 3 way which came from Kirk Hammett's setup (although he used his in the rock-out genre while I'm more interested in using mine in a jazzy clean vibe)...+1 you can get Gibson or "unlike" Gibson sounds with the stock S1 version.

 

@ Scott, I forgot to mention I too have a Taylor with two humbuckers with a push/pull coil split exactly like the one you see to the left in my Avatar LOL!

 

@ Baldwin, I forgot to mention one of them is a 62 reissue Jaguar and the other matching one is a 62 reissue Jazzmaster...and even the white paint color matches the originals! My buddy had the White and Red original Mustang that inspired my purchases as I really like the looks of that color combination. He sold his original Jazzmater to Terry Jacks of the Poppy Family in Vancouver, Canada. I have a buddy that still has his original Jaguar. I've played on both of those originals. The reissues do a very good and realistic job of keeping up with them.

[skipclone 1]

While trying not to veer off into the wood debate, wood (and glue where used) do change in character with age. Even if that contributes 10% of the sound in an electric, that can make a difference epecially with big volume.

[whitefang]

That's a good point Skip, as most people tend to think that the pick-up(s) constitute 100% of the sound in an electric. Even if that electric is a solid body.

Whitefang

[Larryz]

I think the woods make a bigger difference on acoustic guitars than on the electric solid and/or hollow bodies. Most of their sounds do come from the pups. On the acoustics (even with my deaf ears) I can hear a big difference in the spruce tops (bright and treble) and the cedar tops (warm and mellow). I like my cedar top with walnut back and sides the best. I would agree that the old and vintage woods add a lot to the beautiful sound that comes out of older guitars and other instruments. The beautiful sounds have a lot more to do with the player than the woods though IMHO...

[whitefang]

Outside of the SOUND is the LOOK some older acoustics got when that lacquer finish aged. I always kind of LIKED that look.

Whitefang

[skipclone 1]

Sure, where would `relicing` be without `antique violin` finishes?

 

......and I actually liked antique violin finishes....

[Larryz]

@ Fang, +1 I like the crows feet in the old Gibson finishes that come with age too!

 

@ Skip, I'm not a fan of "relicing"...especially the acid wash and chain saw actions they do on perfectly good electric guitars to make them look old LOL!

[Sharkman]

This isn't a guitar story, but it's closely related to the topic. About 25 years ago, I was at a gun show, trying to negotiate a trade. I remember the conversation word for word.

 

Him: "This Soviet Dragunov is worth $4,000."

 

Me: "To who?"

 

Him: "To a collector."

 

Me: "Well I ain't one of those. I'll give you $1,500 tops."

 

Needless to say, he went home with his Dragunov. You can say something is worth $4,000, or $4,000,000, but the reality is, it is only worth what someone else will pay for it.

[skipclone 1]

The Dragunov-I believe the model was an SVD-figured in a book I`ve been meaning to read, I think it`s called `The Death Freak`.

 

Yeah WF, relicing is just ridiculous. If someone wants it I say knock yourself out. None for me thanks. But last time the music fair was around, I saw some acoustics-I think they were Eastman-with antique violin finishes that were so gorgeous it hurt to look at them-I knew I`d be going home without one.

[Baldwin Funster]

Relicing always looks fake. They wear holes in the guitar that dont match natural playing wear. What kind of neurotic mind is worried about a new looking guitar? If you play it enough to be a decent guitarist you will knock a few marks in it soon enough. There was a guy a few years ago that would relic your boss pedals for 50 bux. Funny how no one relics their 57 chevy. Or 2016 mercedes.

[whitefang]

It's a lot like the old gag of beating furniture with chains to give it the "distressed" look and try to sell it as an antique.

Whitefang