Balancing Keyboard Volume with the Rest of the Band

[BbAltered]

One of my biggest challenges with the soul band I play in is finding the right volume: too loud and the others in the band say I need to turn down; too quiet and then I want to pound the keys, tighten up, and my playing suffers.

 

With electronic keyboards, there is a handy volume control. I generally don't use it except to match volumes during the first song; after that I usually leave it alone. There is, after all, no volume control on an AP: the player adjusts their volume thru touch and note choice.

 

What do others do when playing AP sounds on a digital keyboard in a band? Do you use a foot controller or adjust the volume slider during your performance?

 

When comping behind another soloist, I might play 4-6 note chords. I want the volume soft to avoid stepping on the soloist. When doing an AP solo, I want to play single note runs (which are quieter than the thick comping chords I use), but I want to be loud so I can relax and so the piano solo stands out. I myself prefer to not change the keyboard volume because 1) I don't need another task as I launch a solo; 2) actual acoustic pianos don't have volume sliders; and 3) I don't want to have to remember to re-adjust the volume down after the solo.

 

"Piano" is the Italian word for "quiet". Fortunately, the drummer in our soul band gets this and is very good about reducing his playing and volume during the piano solo. The bass and guitar player do not get this and play loudly during solos regardless of whatever is going on. (The guitar player occasionally says the keyboards should be in the PA because he can't hear enough keys.)

 

I myself do not have great technique nor am I a great soloist. My touch and note choice alone do not make up for the volume changes I need between comping behind others and solos in this dance band.

 

I would like to hear how others manage this challenge.

[fjzingo]

Takes some training to get the volumes right, it is also about not playing in the way of others either rythmically or frequencywhise. Guitars can be a constant crash, but the best ones news how to limit theyre frequencies not taking up all fo the spectrum

 

And yes I vary my levels during a show with the soulbands I play with, adjusting up and down, depending on situation. As long as you dont overload and giva a to hot signal to the mixer guy, then he will give you the bad eye......

[cphollis]

The more you play the same material with the same people, the better you'll get at it. You'll learn to modulate volume up and down at the appropriate time (sometimes using controls, sometimes not), and they will get better at turning down when you're trying to play a solo.

 

Or, at least, that's the theory ...

[Reezekeys]

With electronic keyboards, there is a handy volume control. I generally don't use it except to match volumes during the first song; after that I usually leave it alone. There is, after all, no volume control on an AP: the player adjusts their volume thru touch and note choice.

So that means you shouldn't use the volume control on your DP? Presumably you're in a band with drums and other electric instruments. They have volume controls. Your instrument is amplified. You have a volume control, why not use it to balance your sound with everybody? Does it feel better to you to pound on your keyboard to be heard? Do I ask too many stupid questions?

 

Seriously, you're overthinking this IMO. The control is there use it!

[mate stubb]

Use the volume control. APs will cut differently than EPs, solos will need a boost so you don't have to smash your hands, etc.

 

What I never do is use a pedal for piano volume. I use half way up as my normal volume knob reference point, and aside from adjusting slightly up or down for the reasons mentioned above, I balance those things I DO use a volume pedal for (organ and synth) against the relatively fixed piano level.

 

It helps not having everything on a pedal, because then there literally is no reference point.

 

If half way up on the pianos is too loud or soft, I adjust the mixer speaker monitor levels. I also avoid changing the channel individual volume levels as another variable to eliminate.

[harmonizer]

You need to use the volume control, in my opinion. Here's a very simple example: We cover the Doobie Brothers song "China Grove". The "chucka-chucka-chucka" eighth notes played during each chorus need to be quite a bit louder than the the similar notes played underneath the guitar solo. It had never occurred to me that I needed to play the piano part softer underneath the guitar solo until about the 8th time that our lead guitarist yelled at me about this. And then I realized he was right.

 

Piano is just a shortened name for pianoforte, anyway.

[CowboyNQ]

What do others do when playing AP sounds on a digital keyboard in a band? Do you use a foot controller or adjust the volume slider during your performance?

 

 

I don't use a foot controller (although I keep thinking I should add one to my rig) but I am constantly fiddling with the volume knobs on all my keyboards. This includes when using AP patches.

 

[Bobadohshe]

It takes a little bit of work and trial and error. Here's how I do it:

 

-I program patches at home running through my EV speakers. I constantly go back and forth between them, EQing and levelling doing my best to get volumes even. Also there are some sounds that should be a little louder and some that should be a little quieter.

 

-I pretty much always roll off the lows on everything but especially piano. The 5 band EQ on the CP4 is very handy for this. Especially if you are playing piano on old soul tunes and/or going through crappy amplification (Roland KC series for example), this is crucial.

 

-I program all my levels to where my volume sliders are at 75%. I have this level physically marked on each board.

 

-When playing I don't hesitate to give a little bump for solos or when things seem too quiet. I also back it down when needed. But it always returns to the default 75% marked on the boards.

 

-Try to compliment the rest of the rhythm section texturally/registerally. At its simplest this could mean playing more whole notey when the guitar is busy and subdivided, and playing high when the guitar is low, etc..

 

 

[timwat]

All the advice above is wonderful, especially Bobby's above.

 

Nothing to add other than:

 

1) Don't get discouraged. This is a battle I've fought for years and found the only way you ever permanently win is by playing with accomplished veterans with very big ears who can bring all the passion at very low volumes in their own playing.

 

2) Have an open, polite conversation with the rest of the rhythm section. It's generally true, Mr. Guitar Player, that if you can't hear the soloist, you're playing too loud. But there are productive and unproductive ways to have that dialogue, and your drummer may be able to lead that conversation once you start it, with the sensitivity you describe in his playing.

 

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

[xKnuckles]

"Piano" is the Italian word for "quiet". Fortunately, the drummer in our soul band gets this and is very good about reducing his playing and volume during the piano solo. The bass and guitar player do not get this and play loudly during solos regardless of whatever is going on. (The guitar player occasionally says the keyboards should be in the PA because he can't hear enough keys.)

Why are you not going through the PA? I always do - it solves all the problems. I have a small Mackie monitor with just keys in it for me, and I go through the PA. The others then can have me as loud or quiet as they wish - it makes no difference to me. I never have a problem with them being too loud because I can crank up my monitor if needs be (but I am fortunate in working with great musicians who do not feel the need to do that volume competition thing which goes on in some bands..). However big the event is I do exactly the same. I bring my little monitor for myself and let them do what they want with my output.

[xKnuckles]

Oh....perhaps I should add that my lovely, tiny monitor sits facing me on top of a mic stand at ear level, so it is very easy for me to adjust if necessary...

[BbAltered]

Why are you not going through the PA?

 

In the soul band, the PA consists of an 8-channel Mackie powered mixer and two speakers pointing away from the stage. All channels get a mic (2 mics on the horns, 6 vocal mics). The lead vocalist uses a "hot-spot" type monitor; there are no other monitors for players.

 

Obviously, this is not a PA that can send a mix to each player.

[Baldwin Funster]

Ive come to realize that everybody has to listen and adjust their volumes throughout the song. If the guitar players are just blasting away expecting you to find the right level , youll never find it. If the band wants keys they need to clear a space for you . If they dont know how then you are in for a losing fight. My new rule is if i cant hear myself then i dont need to be playing in that spot. When the clouds clear and its time for a little sunshine to shine through, thats my spot.

[xKnuckles]

Why are you not going through the PA?

 

In the soul band, the PA consists of an 8-channel Mackie powered mixer and two speakers pointing away from the stage. All channels get a mic (2 mics on the horns, 6 vocal mics). The lead vocalist uses a "hot-spot" type monitor; there are no other monitors for players.

 

Obviously, this is not a PA that can send a mix to each player.

That seems an extremely small mixer for a soul band! Maybe it is time for your band to think about upgrading....

If you go through the PA you will not need it to send you a feed. All I do is put my two keyboards into a stereo DI box (each in mono). I then take the two monitor feeds directly back from the DI box into my little monitor.. The band gets the two main feeds from the DI box.

 

[aronnelson]

Good post Bob! I know that some sound guys would rather us never touch our boards when we solo, but sometimes you have to and they are not always on top of when we take solos either. Nice tips in here!

[slowtraveler]

Why are you not going through the PA?

In the soul band, the PA consists of an 8-channel Mackie powered mixer and two speakers pointing away from the stage. All channels get a mic (2 mics on the horns, 6 vocal mics). The lead vocalist uses a "hot-spot" type monitor; there are no other monitors for players.

 

Obviously, this is not a PA that can send a mix to each player.

That's a tough situation--not enough inputs on the mixer and only one aux send for stage monitoring (which the lead vox has already glommed onto).

 

With those technical constraints, no choice for the rhythm section but to cooperate in managing on-stage levels (if everyone can get on the same page as timwat suggests), and probably no choice for OP but to develop some comfort level with riding his own output.

 

Very interesting thread.

 

 

[fjzingo]

Another thing to add is that it does help to practice at low volumes, some gigs like cocktailstuff and comping Choirs requires this. Give youre drummer a pair of Hot Rods to keep the levels down. Really good band and listening excercise.

[SteveQB]

Just to add to what is already a comprehensive set of responses, sometimes it is worth trying a different patch on some songs to see if they cut through better. I appreciate that for soul music the guitar as an example will have a reasonably similar sound song to song but in some genres the sounds of the other instruments also vary from song to song. Getting a sympathetic patch can really help.

 

When I have played with people who don't vary their volume or insist on turning up more and more I have actually done the opposite and gradually turned down. I normally get a response of "I can't hear you" to which you have a way in to say well maybe we should all turn down a bit etc

[WesG]

That PA would have been typical of soul bands in the 1960s ... so use it like a 1960s PA: put the mains behind/beside the band. The wash will provide plenty of monitoring.

 

The keys should be in the PA. You can't do a job mixing for "out front" stuck in front of your powered speaker. The dispersion will never be right, either.

 

Use the powered speaker in "monitor" orientation to put maximum dispersion vertically and minimize horizontal dispersion. Then point it at your head. You'll be able to hear fine.

 

Wes

[vonnor]

I do almost all my DP dynamics with touch. I turn up the volume knob so that I can get loud when I need to. Comping I just lay back on the keys a bit, but can still stab accents here and there. When the guitar is soloing or there are vocals I play softer so I don't stomp on anything.

 

Trying to get the guitar player to do this but it's an uphill battle.

[Throbert]

where ever your sig is going there's a limit before clipping distortion and/or pissing

who ever is on the other end off, so you adjust with in that range. You adjust your

monitor level to your preference, for the others that play in the way or get too loud,

well there's always wire cutters.

[Stokely]

My main capt. Obvious advice is that until/unless your monitoring is good, you'll never to really be able to tell that much. When I used to use wedges, my stage mix was basically "wall o sound"--by the time I could hear myself clearly, I was piercingly loud. Once I went to IEMs, it was way, way easier to tell what I was doing in relation to the band. Now, I'm not saying go to IEMs, just that your overall monitor quality is going to massively influence what you do.

 

If I read correctly, you don't really have a PA that is different from monitors? I guess that makes it simpler. I'm always leery of (big) volume changes once front of house has me dialed in. If I can't hear myself that well overall, I'll adjust my monitor placement (prior to IEM) or volume of monitors. For solos, a bit of a boost makes sense, though our band tends to also lay back a bit while someone is soloing. Basically cutting a hole for that instrument much like you might cut a frequency while mixing one instrument to make a spot for another...obviously you lay back too much and you turn a rock tune into lounge rock!

[blyons]

I play with bands both loud and soft. I've learned when I'm with rock and soul bands with a sound man to let the sound man handle my volume in the front line's mix. I use my own small mixer with in ears that I turn up or down as needed to hear myself where I want. If I'm on a jazz date, it's the opposite. There, I ditch the in ears and use my ears and volume control to musically adjust to where I need to be in the tune.

 

One really important tip: Make sure your monitor faces you and away from other band members. (unless they ask for more of you) Bottom line: be musical.

[slowtraveler]

One limitation of IEMs in this situation is that the band's existing PA has no spare aux sends for monitoring. If the OP had a separate mixer to feed his IEMs and also fed that mixer with an on-stage mic to capture all the other sounds he needs to hear I guess it might be OK, but it's a pretty big investment.

 

Ideally, upgrading the band's PA (even one notch higher in Mackie's powered mixer line) would open up more options for monitoring, but I suspect the OP's status quo is best dealt with by cooperation among the rhythm section--recognizing that they have find a way to hear each other and manage stage volume levels using their individual rigs and dynamic control of their playing.

 

Maybe the OP could ask the drummer to check out this thread, and get him to help enlist the bass player and guitar in dealing with the issue

[Throbert]

You need a return feed from the PA or at least an area/mic for IEM

for a basic setup, especially when using molded plugs. The more

isolation the less you hear anyone else.

[allan_evett]

I almost always submix-to-FOH and self-monitor, even on smaller gigs with a basic rock band. Other than a very small, 'unplugged' jazz gig, or coffeehouse setting I can't imagine my keyboard cabinet doing the work of a PA - especially with six vocal and two horn mics in play, and no monitors ( :idk This is 2016, not 1960 - as referenced earlier in the thread). In order to get the levels needed to balance with the above - plus drums, bass and guitar - I'd need to face the cabinet away from me, for the most part; otherwise I'd hear too much of myself vs. everyone else. Turned for FOH use, my cabinet would be mostly useless as a stage monitor for keys.

 

If I was hired for a large group with a disproportionately small PA, I'd bring a separate, powered cabinet to run as a keyboard 'PA adjunct', place it facing away from me entirely, then run my stage mixer/powered cabinet as a personal keyboard monitor.

[DanL]

Use the volume slider, that's what it's there for. I boost up my solos so I don't have to bang too hard and pull it back for comping.

[rickzjamm]

Seems that KB players are way more respectful of the band environment than guitar players.

 

[vonnor]

Seems that KB players are way more respectful of the band environment than guitar players.

I'm only quoting 'cuz I want to see that on here twice.

[Bob L]

Strongly recommend recording your gigs with a recorder that is where your audience members are. Stage mix and FOH can be very different. My band doesn't do this as much as we used to, but early on it was very helpful. I adjusted relative patch volumes based on the recordings, and then listened for improvement in future gigs. I sing lead on most of my bands tunes, and like to have the vocals as loud as possible in the monitors (I have my own monitor channel from the mixer and hance my own monitor mix), so I don't count on the stage mix to be balanced for me. If you use a sound man that person is responsible for much of the balance also. My keyboards always go through the PA, which is also wise even for small venues to create better relative balance and allow other band members to hear you through their monitors (so less likely you have to crank up to get adequate stage volume).