Yamaha AN1x controlling Midi Volume

[Joel Bouchillon]

I just posted this on the Yamaha Vintage forum. I'm posting here hopefully to get a good answer.

=================================================

Wow! I mean Wow! Really? Come On!

 

I can't believe this....If you assign one of the (assignable) knobs to control MIDI Volume 07, 'that' knob will not only be controlling the volume to MIDI'ed external synths; BUT, it is also controlling the AN1X's internal volume at the same time! NOT GOOD! :( Basically, the Assigned volume-knob over-rides the AN1X's Master volume knob.

 

OR, OR, just maybe, there is quick fix for this? Anyone? Anyone?

 

thanks,

[RudyS]

I just posted this on the Yamaha Vintage forum. I'm posting here hopefully to get a good answer.

=================================================

Wow! I mean Wow! Really? Come On!

 

I can't believe this....If you assign one of the (assignable) knobs to control MIDI Volume 07, 'that' knob will not only be controlling the volume to MIDI'ed external synths; BUT, it is also controlling the AN1X's internal volume at the same time! NOT GOOD! :( Basically, the Assigned volume-knob over-rides the AN1X's Master volume knob.

 

OR, OR, just maybe, there is quick fix for this? Anyone? Anyone?

 

thanks,

 

That is exactly how it should work, doesn't it? If you would assign cut off of the filter you also would expext it to change the filter of the AN1x. This is not different from cc07.

[Sven Golly]

That is exactly how it should work, doesn't it? If you would assign cut off of the filter you also would expext it to change the filter of the AN1x. This is not different from cc07.

 

My thought as well. It's doing exactly what you're asking it to do. Not sure where "Wow! I mean Wow! Really? Come On!" comes from, frankly.

 

[Al Coda]

That is exactly how it should work, doesn't it? If you would assign cut off of the filter you also would expext it to change the filter of the AN1x. This is not different from cc07.

 

NORMALLY, when you assign any MIDI CC number to any physical MIDI controller in a digital music instrument/conroller,- it dosn´t affect the internal sound engine´s level except the MIDI info is been recorded to an external sequencer and been played back to the synth engine via it´s MIDI Input, or the MIDI info comes from any other MIDI controller being connected to the MIDI data receiving device´s MIDI input,- or you do a MIDI loopback (connect MIDI In to MIDI Out).

 

I don´t have an AN1x, but,- does it have a dedicated master volume control like most synths have,- just only an analog potentiometer ?

 

But, there are exceptions eventually,- synths using MIDI internally throughout ...

 

Those are, AFAIK, relatively rare though.

 

P.ex., when you assign MIDI CC #07 to a slider, CC pedal or wheel on a KURZ PC3, it doesn´t automatically control it´s internal main output level.

There is it´s master volume pot.

 

So I think that´s bad MIDI implementation or a OS/ MIDI-bug in the AN1x.

 

A.C.

 

[RudyS]

That is exactly how it should work, doesn't it? If you would assign cut off of the filter you also would expext it to change the filter of the AN1x. This is not different from cc07.

 

NORMALLY, when you assign any MIDI CC number to any physical MIDI controller in a digital music instrument/conroller,- it dosn´t affect the internal sound engine´s level except the MIDI info is been recorded to an external sequencer and been played back to the synth engine via it´s MIDI Input, or the MIDI info comes from any other MIDI controller being connected to the MIDI data receiving device´s MIDI input,- or you do a MIDI loopback (connect MIDI In to MIDI Out).

 

I don´t have an AN1x, but,- does it have a dedicated master volume control like most synths have,- just only an analog potentiometer ?

 

But, there are exceptions eventually,- synths using MIDI internally throughout ...

 

Those are, AFAIK, relatively rare though.

 

P.ex., when you assign MIDI CC #07 to a slider, CC pedal or wheel on a KURZ PC3, it doesn´t automatically control it´s internal main output level.

There is it´s master volume pot.

 

So I think that´s bad MIDI implementation or a OS/ MIDI-bug in the AN1x.

 

A.C.

 

This is different then I thought how most synths work. I always thought most synthesizers had a CC flow like this:

 

controller --> internal synth engine --> midi out

 

Most of the times you can "filter" your midi out (so disabling the controller signal), but is still has it's effect on the internal engine. This is in any case on the most synths I used. There are probably synths in which it works differently.

 

The PC3 is indeed such an exception. In this, as you can assign a "sender" and a "receiver" of the signal. So you can assign wether or not the internal engine has to responds to the signal or not.

 

I could be completely off....

[Al Coda]

 

This is different then I thought how most synths work. I always thought most synthesizers had a CC flow like this:

 

controller --> internal synth engine --> midi out

 

On almost ALL of my synths that´s only the case when it´s set to "MIDI local off" and a MIDi loopback established.

 

Other examples are my Yammy DX7mkIIFD which has a dedicated analog volume slider and 2 more free assignable sliders on the frontpanel.

Now assign MIDI CC #07 to one of these sliders and it will transmit the data just only to the MIDI Out while the "volume slider" still controls the DX7mkIIFD´s tone generator level.

 

On my old and trusty Roland MK80, which has the ability to set up an external MIDI zone,- any MIDI controller assignments for it´s 4 sliders and ft-sw.-pedals are independent for internal and external zone.

AND,- what drove me nuts always w/ the machine,- regardless of being set to "local off" or not, it´s internal volume level was never controllable via MIDI up today.

Clearly a design flaw or bug.

 

Most of the times you can "filter" your midi out (so disabling the controller signal), but is still has it's effect on the internal engine. This is in any case on the most synths I used. There are probably synths in which it works differently.

 

How manufacturers interpret and implement MIDI functionality is in deed "different",- but it shouldn´t be.

 

In fact, a dedicated internal volume control makes no sense when it´s been overridden by MIDI CC#07 even there´s no MIDI cable connected to the MIDI-In nor any MIDI info received and the machine is being set to "local ON".

 

I know about wrong MIDI implementation in regards of all the existing controller haptics on instruments, where when set to local off, the result is almost NOTHING doesn´t work internal anymore except the MIDI note info.

The workaround then is using a MIDI cable between the instruments MIDI-Out and MIDI-In.

 

"MIDI local on/off" combined w/ the correct handling normally is the "switch" deciding for the correct behaviour.

 

The PC3 is indeed such an exception. In this, as you can assign a "sender" and a "receiver" of the signal. So you can assign wether or not the internal engine has to responds to the signal or not.

 

That´s correct in regards of the behaviour,- but should be no exception.

 

You always differenciate from transmitter and receiver in regards of MIDI.

You do it by setting the MIDI channel(s) and putting the machine in local-on or local-off mode.

 

Any additional MIDI filters are a sub-set of features beyond the basic MIDI specs as are merging and re-channelizing functionality and such.

 

Kurzweil is almost complete with the limitation of handling just only ONE MIDI port (16 MIDI channels).

KORG Kronos seems to be on par,- I don´t own it so I say "seems".

 

Other brand machines can be mediocre in regards of MIDI.

 

The AN1x behaviour, when in good working condition, is "wrong" when the machine is not been set to local off and there´s no MIDI CC #07 signal received at it´s physical MIDI Input.

 

OTOH, Yamaha did what they wanted MIDI wise already from day 1 of MIDI.

 

I could be completely off....

 

I don´t think you´re off completely.

 

The manufacturers have lots of freedom implementing MIDI and there are enough machines out there users think they work correctly but don´t.

 

P.ex. on my Oberheim Xpander when in Multi-Patch mode, it resets the MIDI volume to "0" once receiving a MIDI patch change command and then you have to make sure sending a new volume offset to make it sound.

 

On my Yamaha KX76, when in "Dual" Mode and using 2 of the 4 sliders both for MIDI CC#07 but on different MIDI channels for bank A and B, when moving both sliders in realtime, the connected tone generators might drop to silence.

I never found out why. Probably "MIDI buffer overflow" ...

 

I could tell you more,- there´s something always.

 

A.C.

[RudyS]

Thank you Al Coda, for the elaborate post. Very interesting.

 

A few things:

 

 

 

AND,- what drove me nuts always w/ the machine,- regardless of being set to "local off" or not, it´s internal volume level was never controllable via MIDI up today.

Clearly a design flaw or bug.

 

 

In fact, a dedicated internal volume control makes no sense when it´s been overridden by MIDI CC#07 even there´s no MIDI cable connected to the MIDI-In nor any MIDI info received and the machine is being set to "local ON".

 

You are speaking about volume, but does your post applies for all of the CC comments?

 

 

The AN1x behaviour, when in good working condition, is "wrong" when the machine is not been set to local off and there´s no MIDI CC #07 signal received at it´s physical MIDI Input.

 

 

This is the reversed behaviour of what the OP wants, right? The OP assigned one of its assignable knows of the AN1x to control volume. I would expect it would control the volume of the AN1X, as well as sending cc07 to it's midi out.

 

I am really not claiming to know all this, just trying to learn

[Joel Bouchillon]

Oh Crap!! I just read in the AN1X manual (page 26) which states: "Control Change parameters to be controlled by each knob when the [ASSIGN] switch is selected,

which not only is routed to the internal tone generator, but is output via the MIDI [OUT] terminal, and

therefore can be used to simultaneously control an external MIDI device."

 

This sucks.

 

My application: to layer an external synth module sound with AN1X, but have separate volume controls.

 

I believe Al CODA may have said it best, "I think that´s bad MIDI implementation or a OS/ MIDI-bug in the AN1x."

 

thanks anyway to everyone's input...

 

later,

 

 

 

[Markyboard]

Reading the manual they make it sound like you have control over whether the CC parameters affects the midi output and/or the internal engine. But based on the parameters it doesn't look like you can separate them. I think all CCs work the same but you probably don't have others assigned to to the internal engine in the control matrix. Unfortunately volume is pre-defined and need not be specifically assigned.

 

Yes, I agree this is a most lame implementation. I assume this is for live use but if you had a pc you could send a CC other than volume (CC 21 for example) and convert it to volume before it gets to your external midi device. I'm not aware of any small gadgets that do this for you.

 

[Joel Bouchillon]

@ MarkyBoard. Great advice. I didn't think tricking out the CC. I'll try it and report back.

 

Later,

[Sven Golly]

I assume this is for live use but if you had a pc you could send a CC other than volume (CC 21 for example) and convert it to volume before it gets to your external midi device. I'm not aware of any small gadgets that do this for you.

 

You do now:

 

MIDI Solutions Event Processor

http://midisolutions.com/evp.jpg

[Markyboard]

Nice one Sven! Ain't 25 year old technology grand?

[Al Coda]

 

You are speaking about volume, but does your post applies for all of the CC comments?

 

I spoke from "volume" ´cause that was the issue the OP had or still has with his AN1x.

 

IMO and as a general rule for freely assignable physical control haptics, there should be some controller matrix deciding where the data, generated by the knob, slider, wheel, ribbon, pedal or switch, will be routed to, may that be "MIDI-Out" or "internal" only, or both simultaneously.

This should rule for ALL the assignable controllers (MIDI CC numbers) available for a machine.

 

Since the old DX7 MIDI keyboards use MIDI also internal.

For the DX7 that was the "DATA ENTRY" slider which is in fact MIDI CC#6.

It wasn´t freely assignable for outgoing MIDI though.

3rd party developer "Grey Matter Response" changed that introducing their E!board upgrade for the DX7.

 

But already in the original DX7mkII you were able to assign different MIDI functionality from a list to the sliders CS-1 and CS-2,- where CS-2 IS the DATA ENTRY slider in EDIT mode !

 

That means, even there wasn´t any MIDI controller matrix implemented like it is in the AN1x, putting the synth in EDIT mode made a decision how that slider behaves.

In addition, there was the simple analog "volume" slider left beneath CS-1 and CS-2 and absolutely no need to send MIDI internal to control the level of the tone-generator.

 

But, WHEN you used a sequencer, it was recommended to set the machine to "local off", so any recorded MIDI CC data being played back to the machine and arriving at it´s MIDI-IN now controlled the tone generator (receiver) while keyboard, wheels and connected pedals as also existing sliders and buttons still act as transmitters and regardless which MIDI CCs were assigned to ´em.

 

This is the reversed behaviour of what the OP wants, right?

 

I understood he wanted individual volume control for the internal tone generator of the AN1x and any to MIDI-OUT connected MIDI device.

 

The OP assigned one of its assignable knows of the AN1x to control volume. I would expect it would control the volume of the AN1X, as well as sending cc07 to it's midi out.

 

Well,- it could be that was what Yamaha´s engineers had in mind at that time,- so being intentional.

But it is also stupid because the main intention when controlling volume for 2 connected MIDI devices is balancing their levels which consequently requires relative volume control and not absolute volume control.

 

Now we come to the next issue !

MIDI CC#7 is kind of (absolute) master volume control and MIDI CC#11 is "expression" (for relative volume) ...

But none of my old Yammi keyboards and MIDI modules has MIDI CC#11 implemented.

Even the masterkeyboard flagship(s) from the 80s, KX88 and KX76, don´t transmit MIDI CC#11, just only MIDI CC#07.

 

You see, the manufacturer decides what will be implemented MIDI wise and later, when you bought, you recognize what kind of MIDI-BS that is.

 

Yamaha is one of the most MIDI-BS generating companies I´m aware of and even they were in the ballpark from the very beginning of MIDI.

I never bought a Motif and I really HOPE those are better !

 

How´s the MIDI implementation in the MONTAGE ? Anyone ?

 

The only companies I know which had good MIDI implementation always were EMU and Kurzweil as well as the manufacturers of dedicated MIDI processor gear like AXXESS Unlimited and MIDITEMP.

Roland was good w/ the A70 and A90 masterkeyboards, but I dunno if the later keyboards/synths are same MIDI quality.

 

The MIDI implementation of Physis K4 and K5 seems to be excellent.

 

A.C.

[Markyboard]

 

You see, the manufacturer decides what will be implemented MIDI wise and later, when you bought, you recognize what kind of MIDI-BS that is.

 

Yamaha is one of the most MIDI-BS generating companies I´m aware of and even they were in the ballpark from the very beginning of MIDI.

I never bought a Motif and I really HOPE those are better !

 

How´s the MIDI implementation in the MONTAGE ? Anyone ?

 

A.C.

 

IIRC in Performance Mode the S90-ES let's you select whether each zone controls midi, internal or both, similar to the Kurz PC3. I assume the Motif is similar in this regard but I have no idea about the Montage.

 

 

The only companies I know which had good MIDI implementation always were EMU and Kurzweil as well as the manufacturers of dedicated MIDI processor gear like AXXESS Unlimited and MIDITEMP.

Roland was good w/ the A70 and A90 masterkeyboards, but I dunno if the later keyboards/synths are same MIDI quality.

 

The MIDI implementation of Physis K4 and K5 seems to be excellent.

 

A.C.

 

The Moog Voyager has very good midi implementation but it was the very latest version released in Dec 2015 that finally nailed it. I assume the Sub37 is also very good?

 

I was a bit peeved the other day to find that the DSI Mopho (and PEK)do not transmit the transposed note values over MIDI, and yet the octave shift values are transmitted. Fortunately I had a workaround using Reaper but still, WHY???