Why stompbox effects?

[aronnelson]

Here's a semi-serious post.

Why do I see a lot of people using guitar stompboxes with their keyboards? I'm not talking vintage keyboards like a Rhodes, but with MainStage or keyboards that have effects built in.

 

Don't they know they can add effects to the sounds in the box?

The one crappy part about the guitar is the ability for these boxes to act up - either with jacks, or DC power, or hum or 3PDT footswitch breaking - the list goes on and on. Why subject yourself to this if you don't have to?

[timwat]

I presume because of the sound.

 

Most of the quality guitar stomp boxes I've heard have their own character. A Zendrive doesn't sound like a Timmy, or a King of Tone, and that's just OD.

 

Consider the Strymon stuff vs. Eventide and then there's a whole other level of mangling.

 

And they really don't "do" the same exact thing as MainStage or a board's built-in, despite the category label being the same.

 

You're right - they aren't as convenient, there's more to go wrong. And that's why we all chose keyboards - to play the least convenient, most time consuming schlep, least sexy, least glamorous rig...and make it more complicated.

 

[RobP2]

Back in the "old days" I used to run my organ through a wah pedal, a flanger and sometimes an echo box. Those effects weren't available on any organ at the time.

 

These days they are - I use an SK2 now, which has those effects and others built in. But afaik, I can only use one at a time. So for some gigs I use a Boss multi-effects pedal, which also includes a good ring mod. In any case I find pedal effects are usually more "tweakable" and easy to tweak on the fly than built in ones

[aronnelson]

>A Zendrive doesn't sound like a Timmy, or a King of Tone, and that's just OD.

 

They are more alike than guitarists imagine. You would be amazed at how many of them are just tube screamer derivatives. I understand for overdrive and distortion, but for digitals like Strymon - yeah sure they have a sound, but the newer keyboards are closer than ever. The Strymon sounds good, but so does my Kronos flanger.

 

I have a friend that bought 3 super high end pedals because he liked them. Of course he did, they are all tweaks of the same pedal.

I guess I am way less picky when it comes to keyboards - YES of course the sound of my Korg small stone phase shifter is not exact, but it's close and the musicians in the band can't really tell unless you AB them.

 

Anyway, the impedance/input is all wrong for keyboards with these pedals, in the end maybe it looks cool? I can totally see putting analog synths through the pedals because it doesn't have delay or reverb, but the modern ones???

You also lose stereo imaging.

I guess it looks cool.

[aronnelson]

OTOH you are right for something like the PX-5S which has great sounds but very weak sounding FX. The modulation effects are very, weak compared to their analog counterparts. So I could see using it with a PX-5S for sure. Again, you lose stereo imaging but gain a lot more.

[borntohang]

Why not!

 

But really, having them in stompbox form means you've got access to all the parameters at your fingertips during live shows; you can change the routing and swap pedals in and out the chain depending on how you feel; some players feel more comfortable with an easily editable format they're used to rather than patch diving. And yes, it also looks cool!

[Markyboard]

Anyway, the impedance/input is all wrong for keyboards with these pedals, in the end maybe it looks cool?

 

Depends on the board and the effect. There's really no telling until you try it. But I do have one of these when I need to lower myself to guitar standards :

 

http://www.radialeng.com/images/xamp/xamp-top-lrg2.jpg

 

 

 

But really, having them in stompbox form means you've got access to all the parameters at your fingertips during live shows; you can change the routing and swap pedals in and out the chain depending on how you feel; some players feel more comfortable with an easily editable format they're used to rather than patch diving. And yes, it also looks cool!

 

From a studio perspective I find this especially true. I want the device accessible right there where I'm working, not off in some rack across the room or having to wade through menus. My Moogerfoogers and Multidrive pedal are up on the desks where I can easily grab a knob or push a button, not at my feet. If the effect becomes part of the program I developed then yes, I'll try to use the internal effects of the synth, or a VST.

 

Good topic.

[Markay]

I am now a pedal cynic. Had plenty of them for guitar and virtually all are attempting to model the original analogue effect into a valve amp.

 

Most take a clean signal and digitally degrade it.

 

Once I replaced my solid state guitar amp with a valve multi channel amp I stopped using all but wah and chorus with guitar.

 

I can go from clean to overdrive to distortion by changing channel or just digging on the same channel.

 

As for tweaking a pedal while playing I have never mastered that while playing guitar and see very few guitarists crouching down adjusting settings on pedals midway through a song.

 

I don't get the difference folk believe exists between software loaded on a chip in a metal box and software running in MainStage. Its just software, how good it sounds is down to whoever coded it.

 

What I like about effects in MainStage is that if I want to tweak them live I can map the controls to knobs or faders on my controller and have easy access to them.

 

 

[aronnelson]

Studio I can see, live, not so sure. I can totally see using a multi-fx box with programmable delays. I mean as a guitarist as well as a keyboard player, I don't know why you want to use a non-programmable pedal when your keyboard is completely programmable. But if they want to deal with patch cords and crappy connections, more power to those guys. I've got so many pedals lying around in my room, but I wouldn't want to use them for my keyboards unless I had to.

 

> some players feel more comfortable with an easily editable format they're used to rather than patch diving

 

Sure - most old guys - I get it, but most of these people I see are younger people and I don't see much knob twiddling either.

 

Anyway, it's probably just to be cool I guess.

 

Most of those guys would cry at the pedals I have. Oberheim VCF anyone with S/H! BK Butler Mini Boogie! Dan Armstrong Green Ringer - almost the complete line - original from 70s.... Maestro Fuzz Tone original, Fender Blender etc.....

 

[RABid]

...

Sure - most old guys - I get it, but most of these people I see are younger people and I don't see much knob twiddling either.

 

Anyway, it's probably just to be cool I guess.

 

Most of those guys would cry at the pedals I have. ...

 

What is with all of the anger directed towards people who use pedals? It's okay. Really. Just a personnel choice. No one is doing it to look cool or be seen. In most cases the audience cannot even see the pedals.

 

I use them mostly for synth leads but they also are nice to patch into my modular. I even had a module made especially for patching pedals.

 

If I want to play a few bars of a synth lead, then kick on an OCD for a few bars, then add the Dunlop wah to bring it home at the end, who has the right to tell me that is wrong?

[Threadslayer]

 

 

As for tweaking a pedal while playing I have never mastered that while playing guitar and see very few guitarists crouching down adjusting settings on pedals midway through a song.

 

And there goes the "looking cool" argument.

[Phil Aiken]

Count me in the pro-stompbox camp. I own a bunch, I use them, and do not feel that they are readily replaced with on-board effects.

Find me a digital filter or delay as nice as my moogerfoogers, or a phaser as nice as my Pigtronix - a keyboard with on board effects rivaling the Eventide H9, distortion as nice as the few pedals I use, that do not at all sound alike, and I will be the first to leave the pedalboard at home.

Plus - as the name suggests, you can stomp on them.

[Marzzz]

This is a nice little pedal for obtaining multiFX:

 

http://cdn.mos.musicradar.com/images/Total%20Guitar/247/zoom-ms-70cdr-1200-80.jpg

[RABid]

Every ROMpler I own has a rotary effect built in. None compare to a Vent.

[CEB]

Whatever works. I don't like pedals on keys because I like to keep the small ancillary pieces of gear down to a minimum. It is the smalls that kills setup and tear-down times.

 

Pitfalls I find with pedals are 1) impedance mismatch issues. and 2) and issues that rears itself in guitar land also is how tone can go wonky due to DA/AD conversion processes. This frankly has been a bigger issue when I have tried using digital gear in my guitar audio chains.

 

But there are no rules. Do what works. Some stuff plays together great some stuff no so much. Experimenting is half the fun.

[Stokely]

^ agreed, for the gigs I play live (not huge ones) it's simply not worth any extra sonic quality (and that's subjective) vs the extra hassle. As it is I wish one of my keyboards had the same ability that my Emu Proteus did--to be able to act as a submixer to another board. That would simplify my rig quite a bit. Going to IEMs reduced my setup nicely as well.

 

For home (studio)...nope, the best thing about VSTs is their self-contained nature. Once you record the notes then you can mess with the sound until the cows come home a your leisure, no cabling needed. I guess if there was some sound that was just miles better than a plugin I'd give it a shot though.

 

I've recorded guitar using a pedal and amp simply because I've struggled with latency, and also haven't invested in any guitar-oriented plugins (I simply don't do much of it). The guitar amp in Logic Pro are a bit iffy, though to be sure I'm not a great player so the problem is likely in the fingers!

[burningbusch]

I didn't know people were doing this and it does seem odd, or maybe it makes some sense. When working with a synth/workstation, the controller settings, effects and patch are nicely tied together, so when you switch to a new program, everything resets to how the program was last saved. If SW#1 was on and that controls a phaser effect, it's going to be that way every time you switch to that program. With Mainstage, things aren't so nicely tied together. Your controller doesn't get reset to the saved position of the program when it's switched in Mainstage, AFAIK. Maybe this loose connection between controller and Mainstage makes people want some basic FXs that are On when the light says they're On and not exist in some unpredictable state. Just a thought, if that makes sense. Mainstage, like any of these programs, can be a maze.

 

I really can't see it with a modern workstation with the exception of Leslie sims. Yamaha and Korg both recreate classic pedals and have tons of FXs options. Also, when programming if I would use SW#1 to turn on a chorus I might also use that switch to simultaneously change gain or EQ for example if I thought that was required because of the introduction of the chorus. That's something you can't easily do with a pedal.

 

Busch.

[timwat]

>A Zendrive doesn't sound like a Timmy, or a King of Tone, and that's just OD.

 

They are more alike than guitarists imagine. You would be amazed at how many of them are just tube screamer derivatives.

 

Well, I can vouch that a Zendrive and a Timmy sound different to my ears with a guitar (a Music Man JP6 John Petrucci, to be precise). I was recording one of those with a friend playing who has both, and I prefer the Zendrive (we tried both).

 

Now, on a keyboard, probably not so much for a lot of the reasons you cite.

 

But the "tube drive" in my Nord wave is, well, simply horrible (IMHO). I've thought about (but never tried) running a drive pedal inline for solos, just never got around to it.

[EscapeRocks]

I just recently entered the world of stompboxes for keys.

 

Namely, my new LesterK. As someone else pointed out, my gig boards have horrible to not so horrible "rotary effects", no matter how much menu diving I do.

 

With my LesterK, and can run organ tones thru the sub out output of my FA08, in stereo, thru my LesterK.

 

 

What a difference it has made!! I used it live for the first time a few weeks ago, and for the first time in years I got comments from the band, and some long time fans as well, how good the organs sounded that night.

 

Thru experimentation, I have also found the LesterK can help shape my non-organ tones that would take me an endless amount of time diving into menus.

 

My Lester K sits up on my FA08 on the left side blank area. I have immediate control of all the parameters as the mood strikes me. I don't have to pre-plan anything in the deep menus.

 

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh58/escaperocks1/lester_zpsg8ljoi7w.jpg

[MAJUSCULE]

Most of those guys would cry at the pedals I have. Oberheim VCF anyone with S/H! BK Butler Mini Boogie! Dan Armstrong Green Ringer - almost the complete line - original from 70s.... Maestro Fuzz Tone original, Fender Blender etc.....

 

Well maybe you should sell 'em off to someone who's gonna actually use them.

 

Seriously though, my pedalboard is an instrument in and of itself. I'm constantly tweaking them, sweeping them for various effects, changing tones... Depends on the music you're making with them, sure. I don't really play anything where I need tempo-synced delay or super precise modulation or anything.

 

You're right that my ideal scenario is paired with my Rhodes and Hot Rod. But the difference between my NE3's onboard fx and the pedalboard? Come on now. The day I plugged in my Minifooger ring mod after using the Nord one for three or four years... I still get a little hot down below, ya know?

 

Also, as far as young folk using stompboxes... IMO, hardware is more intuitive, knobs/switches are more fun, and having that extra tactical facet to your rig can push you in different musical directions. Again, this is all contingent on your style. I dunno what you play. For me, I can 100% say that stompboxes expanded my artistic vision and my sonic palette, and have helped me establish a reputation within certain scenes here in Edmonton.

[Markyboard]

Suddenly, things started to get ugly...

 

http://bestride.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/angry-mob.png

[J. Dan]

Plus - as the name suggests, you can stomp on them.

 

This. I seem to recall a thread a little while back about changing volume when soloing? Boost or OD pedal...hit it with your foot, done. Rotary pedals? I use m sustain for fast/slow on the internal sim. If I were to get a vent or burn, I for sure would be using the foots witches. Do so,etching rack mounted or in the PC and now you're having to do midi foot pedals or other routings to try to assign the parameters you want. There's something immediate and straightforward with a pedal.

[aronnelson]

> Well maybe you should sell 'em off to someone who's gonna actually use them.

 

I think you missed the part where I am also a guitarist.

 

I guess the point I am trying to make is yes, of course if the onboard effects are crappy, you have to find an alternative, but if it's not - you can make a very convincing effect onboard and I cannot think that maybe a part of this external effect is just not knowing how to program effectively.

 

OF COURSE nothing sounds like a Mutron Auto Wah or Oberheim VCF, BUT for most people - you can program an auto wah on almost any decent keyboard that will do the job and make them smile.

External Rotary pedals - yes, I can see that. I meant more run of the mill pedals.

 

As far as liking and using pedals - or building them - you are invited to diystompboxes.com/forum :-)

[brenner13]

As some others here, I find pedal effects offer easier access to instant modification and perhaps possibilities of a more signature, authentic vibe to one's own sound.

[J. Dan]

Sort of like the difference between a real analog synth with Knobs and a VA built into your workstation.

[seanl]

 

 

Funny, I just bought a new Strymon Big Sky and am putzing with it this evening. So far I like it. It sits right up next to my M3.

[RobP2]

Studio I can see, live, not so sure. I can totally see using a multi-fx box with programmable delays. I mean as a guitarist as well as a keyboard player, I don't know why you want to use a non-programmable pedal when your keyboard is completely programmable.

 

But like I said - on the SK2 you can only apply one effect at a time - and my options are limited to alter it, or I have to go into a menu. If I'm playing in my psych/space rock band and want to get a particular effect with echo and something else I just twiddle the knobs in response to what is happening with the music.

 

Like someone else said, it all depends on what kind of music you are playing. I wouldn't use a stomp box for a jazz or function gig, no need. For Space Trucking I need a decent ring mod!

[RobP2]

[video:youtube]

[Markay]

With Mainstage, things aren't so nicely tied together. Your controller doesn't get reset to the saved position of the program when it's switched in Mainstage, AFAIK. Maybe this loose connection between controller and Mainstage makes people want some basic FXs that are On when the light says they're On and not exist in some unpredictable state. Just a thought, if that makes sense. Mainstage, like any of these programs, can be a maze.

 

My implementation of MainStage and yours must be dramatically different. Every time I select a patch with VI's and effects every setting is exactly where it was when last saved. And the current settings for drawbars or effects are shown on screen in performance mode, if mapped.

 

My controller behaves the same way as my XK3c for example. When I select the Bb preset the drawbars don't move on the XK3c, neither do they on my controller. But a quick glance at the laptop screen gives me graphic of exactly where they are, it would take a real close squint at the tiny XK3c screen to see where they are.

 

The MainStage unpredictable maze and loose connection seems to be a shared trait with most hardware boards unless they have motorized faders, knobs and buttons. And only a maze if you ignore the MainStage performance display, shown on a 15" screen in my case.

[burningbusch]

With Mainstage, things aren't so nicely tied together. Your controller doesn't get reset to the saved position of the program when it's switched in Mainstage, AFAIK. Maybe this loose connection between controller and Mainstage makes people want some basic FXs that are On when the light says they're On and not exist in some unpredictable state. Just a thought, if that makes sense. Mainstage, like any of these programs, can be a maze.

 

My implementation of MainStage and yours must be dramatically different. Every time I select a patch with VI's and effects every setting is exactly where it was when last saved. And the current settings for drawbars or effects are shown on screen in performance mode, if mapped.

 

My controller behaves the same way as my XK3c for example. When I select the Bb preset the drawbars don't move on the XK3c, neither do they on my controller. But a quick glance at the laptop screen gives me graphic of exactly where they are, it would take a real close squint at the tiny XK3c screen to see where they are.

 

The MainStage unpredictable maze and loose connection seems to be a shared trait with most hardware boards unless they have motorized faders, knobs and buttons. And only a maze if you ignore the MainStage performance display, shown on a 15" screen in my case.

 

Read through my response. I am specifically talking about turning effects on and off with a switch (lighted to indicate position or dedicated in the case of something like a Nord), just like you would with an effects pedal as that relates to the OPs question. I'm not writing about drawbars or knob positions. As I said, with a synth/workstation if the patch is saved with the switch in a certain position, it is recalled each time to that position.

 

Busch.