Riddle Me This: Synth vs. Guitar

[Prague]

I have used, to date, ONE "guitar" sound from a synth. A sitar sound for a short melody in one song. Never have used a guitar through a synth.

 

But, we have 6 keyboards and 9 guitars. I've never felt the two could cross paths.

[Tusker]

Originally posted by fantasticsound:

Jerry, you make some interesting points, but I think you're missing the big picture.

Thank you. I'm pretty passionate about the possibilities for my instrument. As to missing the big picture ... we all have different big pictures we bring with us. Hopefully that makes this thread more valuable.

 

Originally posted by fantasticsound:

As previously stated, guitar synths are a tiny speck on a tiny speck that represents musical instrument sales. And it ain't gonna change, because there are few guitarists who view themselves as a whole slew of instruments as keyboard players do.

I agree with your comment in the context of near term MI sales. I don't claim to know what the next guitar wave will be. Or the one after that. I think that sometimes guitarists who simply use tubes to create unusual textures are themselves synthesists ... certainly more so than a keyboardist who simply pulls up a brass or guitar patch and attempts to BE that instrument. Adrian Belew is among the best synthesists I have heard.

 

Originally posted by fantasticsound:

While electric guitars have are used in synth type ways, there is a direct touch factor that several have discussed here that separates and electric guitar from an electronic keyboard. The string you touch is the sound generator, and it's induced signal is modified. Keyboards are activators of electronic engines. No direct connection between your fingers and the resulting sound's timbre or expression unless you program it.

This oft made observation is true on it's face. However, it is misleading and misunderstood by many non-synthesists. Most synths ship with velocity and aftertouch capability and many have them programmed into their sounds. For a professional or educated hobbyist, it is a matter of customizing the response, then internalizing it. The internalizing is where the process breaks down, usually. Two of the most important reasons are:

 

- the frequency with which new gear is purchased, learned superficially and then discarded.

 

- the cultural focus on multiple textures, which sometimes makes mastery of subtle tone less important.

 

It's not the instrument, believe me. The problem when it exists is the lack of encoding of human software (synaptic connection) not the synth's software.

 

Originally posted by fantasticsound:

As for the bold highlight, above, I'd hardly call it imitation of keyboards when guitarists play classical scales, as the guitar's ancestors date back hundred's, if not thousands of years before any keyboard instrument.

 

Agreed.

 

Jerry

[fantasticsound]

Perhaps I should clarify my first point. I meant that there is a lot of evidence that Craig's question is correct, factually. There does seem to be a preoccupation by many keyboard players to accurately emulate guitar timbres and technique. (Of course, as others mentioned, keyboard players also have preoccupations with emulating many other instruments. ) And, conversely, a preponderance of guitar players either don't wish to emulate the expansive voices afforded to keyboardists or, more likely, don't care to emulate those sounds on a guitar controller. It's my observation that most non-keyboard players, regardless of their own instrument specialty, find keyboards to be the easiest and most open architecture way to access other instrument sounds. And my own opinion is that it's the deficiencies of non-keyboard controllers that lead other musicians to learn just enough about keyboards to play samples and electronic synth timbres from a keyboard.

 

So I guess it's not necessarily the case that guitarists don't want to emulate keyboardists, but that they can accomplish their goals easier by learning to play a keyboard than applying their knowledge of guitar to a midi converter/controller.

 

So if you look at the big picture of electronic MI instruments, I believe you'll see your band, Adrian Belew, and others that incorporate guitar synth seem to be exceptions that prove the rule.

 

BTW - I agree with your premise that electric guitar can be viewed as a synth. But despite the ability of pressure sensitive keys, aftertouch and a host of programmable expression, I still see a difference between keyboard actuators and physical manipulation of strings (which are the sound generators of a guitar). Maybe if you could put your finger inside an oscillator and change it's timbre by direct touch of the electrical path than I would see them as truly equivalent as synths. (Don't try this at home, folks! ) But by strict definition an electric guitar is, indeed, a synth of sorts.

 

[Tusker]

Originally posted by fantasticsound:

BTW - I agree with your premise that electric guitar can be viewed as a synth. But despite the ability of pressure sensitive keys, aftertouch and a host of programmable expression, I still see a difference between keyboard actuators and physical manipulation of strings (which are the sound generators of a guitar). Maybe if you could put your finger inside an oscillator and change it's timbre by direct touch of the electrical path than I would see them as truly equivalent as synths. (Don't try this at home, folks! ) But by strict definition an electric guitar is, indeed, a synth of sorts.

That is indeed my premise ... that the electric guitar is a synth that has found it's voice. Thank you for catching it. Guitars have meandered around in search of emulative tone during the formative years. They have found their voice (indeed several of their voices) over 40-50 years of mass marketing, esperimenting and learning. The mass market for synths has existed for perhaps 10 years. I find the commonalities much more interesting than the distinctions (over mechanics for example) which I find arbitrary.

 

This is not to disagree with your distinction ... there is something special about being able to physically control the attack itself. Just to say that there are a number of special and unique things in any instrument interface. Some interfaces yield finer control of attack, others have finer control of dynamics, timbre, note length etc. And the uniqueness of the attack, is made doubly special by an electrical process, which is analogous to a traditional synthesis path, and has elements in common with it (namely amplifer distortion and resonant filtering). It wouldn't be the same if one plugged one's Les Paul directly into the mixing board would it?

 

Originally posted by fantasticsound:

Perhaps I should clarify my first point. I meant that there is a lot of evidence that Craig's question is correct, factually. There does seem to be a preoccupation by many keyboard players to accurately emulate guitar timbres and technique.

I agree that there are a lot less sales of sample based synths to guitarists than to keyboardists. It is this part of the Craig's question that appears contextually guitar-centric:

 

Just what is it about guitar that makes keyboard players want to be able to sound like it?

 

As others have mentioned ... we imitate everyone. It's us not you.

 

And sometimes we like being ourselves. though we may be uncertain what exactly that means.

 

Neil, even though I have a different point of view from you, I respect your insight and your thoughful posts.

 

Jerry

[fantasticsound]

As do I your observations and opinions.

[felix.]

I think the "all keyboardists secretly wish they were guitarists" thing is largely untrue. In fact, synths attracted me because of the unique sounds they were able to make that were unlike any other instrument around. In fact, I found it somewhat amusing that the presets diagrammed in the manual of my Juno 6 were for instruments like flute, piano, etc.

 

I get as annoyed by someone playing a guitar solo on a synth as I do by someone playing it on a guitar, Jan Hammer included. Just doesn't do anything for me.

 

I recently read an article that discussed the making of the Police's Synchronicity. In it, it was mentioned that much of the synth work was actually done on guitars. I had always been a little bit annoyed that the Police's work had a bunch of synth stuff in it, yet they never officially had a keyboardist in the band - finding out that Andy Summers played the parts using a guitar synth actually makes more sense to me.

 

As for me, I'll remain a keyboardist, and leave the guitar parts to a guitarist.

[fantasticsound]

Yeah, Felix... Andy Summers has been involved with guitar synth since the beginning with Roland. I know he owned a GR303, one of their first mass produced converters.

[philbo_Tangent]

The problem with synths is that they are stiff. Even a decent-sounding piano patch isn't ANYTHING close to the way a real piano sounds. The dynamics and timbre just aren't there.

 

Now, a guitar is extremely expressive. So, synth guitar patches are extremely NON-expressive. I've never heard a convincing one yet.

 

Maybe, someday, a synth will use 32-bit samples and incorporate good amp-simulators and stomp-box simulators (instead of using the same plain 'white-bread' FX that the other patches use, MAYBE then it'll start getting close to real-sounding. But I'm not holding my breath.

 

Phil

[miroslav]

Don't know if anyone mentioned this...

...but there is something very sexy/sensual/raw about the sound of a guitar...

and also playing a guitar...

...something that you just can't get from keyboards.

 

Of course...keys have their own strengths.

Hell, with one synth, you can do a LOT more than you can with a guitar...you can probably do an entire song...all the parts...with one synth.

 

But...there is a simplistic beauty to ripping away on guitar...

plucking/bending the strings...

getting that nice chunka, chunka tone...

...Oh oh...

...I just wet my pants!

 

I still enjoy playing keyboards...

...but if I'm feeling kinda' spunky or soulful...

...I'll always go for one of my guitars first!

[Dylan]

Well, for starters MIDI guitar is a bit tedious and expensive. Ive used just about every MIDI guitar setup out there including a Casio MIDI guitar (dont laugh) from way back. The hard part is that you have to change your entire approach when playing MIDI guitar if youre trying to emulate synths, strings, B3, etc., Things like string bends all of a sudden sound really bad and even the slightest problems with tuning or intonation can make matters worse. There is also the issue of tracking, which is usually a problem in inexpensive (under $1000) controllers, especially when playing in the lower octaves. It seems that the best solutions for guitar are the built-in synth pickups into specific Brian Moore and Strat models. Otherwise, you have to uglify a guitar by putting on a nasty looking outboard pickup and deal with more cable clutter. However, I cant see spending $900 on a guitar just to get MIDI functionality plus another $700+ for the MIDI translator. I guess if I could find a $600 guitar with a standard MIDI output then I might consider it. And dont get me started that most of Rolands MIDI guitar processors are floorboard units . Can I please put that expensive MIDI box in a rack?

[fantasticsound]

Originally posted by Dylan PDX:

...I guess if I could find a $600 guitar with a standard MIDI output then I might consider it. And dont get me started that most of Rolands MIDI guitar processors are floorboard units . Can I please put that expensive MIDI box in a rack?

I don't know what the cost was, but Parker formerly sold (still sells?) the Midi Fly, based on the Nite-Fly body. It had a MidiAxe converter built in. Output was midi cable.

 

http://free.of.pl/j/jazzman/pliki/galeria/g/midifly.jpg

[pbognar]

Sorry to jump in so late in the thread here...

 

What attracts me to guitar synths is:

 

1. I envy the range of new and exotic sounds which synths provide

 

2. I can capture my playing via MIDI to create synth parts and edit the data

 

3. The various sounds change the way I play

 

On the other hand, the last guitar synth I owned was a GR-300, and at first I was amazed to be able to play polyphonic parts, but then I soon realized the sound was sub-standard compared to keyboard synths, even though tracking was very good. If I had the money, I would probably buy the GR-33, but it still has some glitching and delay problems. Also, I would only use it for recording or some utilitarian parts live.

 

For the most part, I don't think anyone cares to see a guitar player play guitar synth live - with the right tone and playing, the guitar is a magical thing - interacting with the amp and all.

 

I may be listening with my eyes, but for the most part, I prefer that Holdsworth, Metheny, and McLaughlin just shutup and play their guitars - although there are some specific performances which are worth something.

 

As far as Jan Hammer - I was blown away by his solo on "Manic Depression" - he did his homework and it was musical.

 

Pete

[BP3]

Jan Hammer, George Duke and others had a big influence on me when I was young. It's more the pitch bending techniques I like than a synth with a guitar patch. Pitch bending can often add quite a bit of emotion to keyboard performance.

 

I do gravitate to using my synths and keys with distortion often whether it's a synth patch, rhodes, organ, or clav patch.

[BP3]

...oops

[ani]

For me, there's a few expressive instruments out there, and they all involve having fingers on strings.

 

Unless they've changed things, I don't see any piano players making chords by opening up the piano and placing their fingers on the strings.

I've not read this entire thread, but thought I'd address a few things. The above comment is SO outfield, and shows a lack of appreciation for PIANO players; NOT SYNTH players, but true pianists.

 

I own 3 synthesizers and an electric piano, Yamaha Clavinova, and not even ONE of any of them can come close to the true tone of a Steinway, Mason & Hamlin, or Baldwin Grand Piano.

 

There is not a synth available that can recreate the emotion felt in playing a REAL grand piano; it's just not guitar players that feel cheated by the tonal quality of electronic music, but other acoustic players as well.

 

Where a guitarist frets the strings on a guitar, a pianist controls the force at which the hammers of the piano hit the strings that are what gives the piano its tone. Although a piano is not recognized as a stringed instrument, in actuality, it is VERY MUCH a stringed instrument; so is a harp. There is an absolute distinction in the dynamics in piano playing; whereas synth keyboards do not possess those same qualities. You have lucid occurances in the rise and fall (crescendo) of the music. The (allegro)liveliness and swiftness in striking keys on the piano, or the (adagio) soft and slow in playing will determine exactly how much the strings are bent... their length of ring... and the volume of such. Sustain and damper pedals control the duration and the tonal output. These things cannot be controlled on any electronic voice for ANY instrument.

 

All the time in the world with electronic keyboards, and also all the technology, cannot replace any acoustic instrument. I own several synths, as I stated before, and have owned others in the past; but none are nearly as captivating as finding an open moment with an available grand piano, to play until my heart's content. There's no comparision, regardless of how sophisticated electronics are; NONE.

 

Oh yeah, and BTW, I've had a few guitar lessons so to speak from experience in playing an acoustic guitar as opposed to an acoustic piano. Pianos also have their very own personality.

[theblue1]

I've been playing guitar for a little over 3 decades and synths a little over two decades -- I learned on a Moog modular system with real patch cords and the whole nine yards. I'm definitely a better guitarist than keyboardist, but I have a serviceable right hand for keys when I'm in practice (drilled in from years of overdubbing mono synth lines in the pre-MIDI days).

 

I've never played a guitar MIDI controller that was acceptable from this guitarist's perspective. Of those I've played, the ones that track string vibration rate for pitch information have had long latency on bass strings and much shorter latency on high strings, making them really hard to play (I guess you could get used to it, or perhaps someone has come up with a "latency equalizer" that delays the signal from higher strings so that there is, at least, a consistent latency). And the ones that use sensors in the neck and that sort of thing, while not having appreciable latency also lack the expressiveness that comes from finger tremelo, bends, etc. (Not that the others necessarily track those expressive moves that well, either.)

 

As far as guitar-like synth sounds, I've heard some pretty good ones and a few keyboardists who are pretty good at using them. Certainly, you can come up with some convincing grindcore stuff... sampled chunks are certainly preferable to the dreary job of all those double time rhythm parts -- but of course the job of listening to either is drearier still. But I have to say that most people who attempt conventional guitar parts on keyboards sound every bit as hokey as most of the keyboard "sax" solos out there.

[Salyphus]

I use a Roland Ready Strat and an Axon AX-100 and to me the most interesting use is to blend synth sounds and the actual guitar sound together. You still get the expressiveness of the actual guitar strings, but yet you can add whatever other timbres or overtones you like to make that sound truly unique. With the Axon, you can also use picking location to change the value of any continuous controller which can alter the synth sound or effects on the guitar sound or both---and that is just scratching the surface. This also eliminates any latency issues, since you still hear the actual attack of pick on string.

 

Still, most guitarists don't want/need this capability, and truth be told, I'd be just as happy with a good guitar into a good (tube) amp with no other effects at all, especially in a live situation. You can do so much just with that if you focus on the actual playing and the expressiveness of the guitar and your playing of it.

 

As far as MIDI guitar sales, frankly the Roland MIDI ones haven't been very good, and the Axon is expensive and very obscure. Guitarists are also generally pretty conservative compared to keyboardists as has been noted.

 

I would agree with the points that a guitar is an inherently more expressive instrument than a keyboard; that doesn't mean it's 'better', just different. I do think keyboard manufacturers should take a long hard look at ways to incorporate more expressiveness into their controllers.

 

Oh, and that comment about Pat Metheny was pretty far off base in my opinion; whoever said that needs to check out more of his stuff, he is one of the greatest guitar innovators alive IMO.

[pbognar]

Originally posted by Salonious:

 

Oh, and that comment about Pat Metheny was pretty far off base in my opinion; whoever said that needs to check out more of his stuff, he is one of the greatest guitar innovators alive IMO.

I think Metheny is pushing the envelope in music, HOWEVER, IMHO, I find the tone he gets out of his GR-300 awfully irritating - it sounds like a very cheap synth version of a trumpet. I've owned the GR-300 and maybe that's why if feel this way. If he were using a different qaulity waveform, it would be more easily digestible.

 

I saw him about a year ago, and he had a trumpet player in the band, which made his choice of a synth voice even more illogical. HOWEVER, to his credit, on that night, he played an incredible synth solo, using my unfavorite patch which gave me goose bumps.

 

My intent wasn't to rip Metheny, Holdsworth, or McLaughlin, but rather their choice of synth sounds - and as a matter of fact, McLaughlin, has one synth solo on "The Heart of Things" which is actually the best example of a solo guitar synth sound which I've heard. Another great example is on Lee Ritenour's "Captain Fingers" (not on CD yet), where he plays with an ancient 360 system, driving some Oberheim modules, but mixed with an overdriven guitar sound.

 

Pete

[coyote]

I suppose one key to operating a guitar synth is to acknowledge its limitations. A concert flute, for example, cannot play bass notes; likewise, the low-frequency latency of a guitar synth may tell you to use it mostly in higher registers. If you work within the practical limitations of an instrument, you may get better results than if you keep expecting it to do things it cannot do (perhaps for chord work, a guitar synth might allow you to restrict its input/output range so that only higher notes are tracked & converted?).

 

One band that makes good use of guitar synths is King Crimson. As my band is considering adding some Discipline-era stuff to the setlist I'm seriously considering the purchase of a guitar synth; it's sometimes too difficult for me to switch from guitar to keys and back to guitar within a song, and some of those parts require synth sounds. The current Roland does track well in higher registers, and has lots of good sounds.

[pbognar]

Originally posted by coyote:

I suppose one key to operating a guitar synth is to acknowledge its limitations. A concert flute, for example, cannot play bass notes; likewise, the low-frequency latency of a guitar synth may tell you to use it mostly in higher registers. If you work within the practical limitations of an instrument, you may get better results than if you keep expecting it to do things it cannot do (perhaps for chord work, a guitar synth might allow you to restrict its input/output range so that only higher notes are tracked & converted?).

 

One band that makes good use of guitar synths is King Crimson. As my band is considering adding some Discipline-era stuff to the setlist I'm seriously considering the purchase of a guitar synth; it's sometimes too difficult for me to switch from guitar to keys and back to guitar within a song, and some of those parts require synth sounds. The current Roland does track well in higher registers, and has lots of good sounds.

I forgot about Crimson - great band - great use of guitar synths.

 

Also a comment about tracking being better in the higher registers of the guitar: I remember reading an article, probably by Craig Anderton, long ago, suggesting that if your guitar synth had the option of transposing the pitch of each string, that you consider putting on a set of all G strings, tuned to G, and then transposing the synth output for each string, to correspond to normal guitar tuning. The idea being that the string in the low E position, would be able to determin the pitch of the G faster, and cut down on the pitch to control voltage lag.

 

I tried this once on a Casio guitar synth, but unfortunately, it's software was setup to assume that anything vibrating on the low E string position was going to be within a certain range of pitches, in attempt to predict what the pitch was going to be, thereby reducing lag - so my experiment actually backfired...

 

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that the Roland GR stuff is set up the same way.

 

Pete

[fantasticsound]

Originally posted by coyote:

I suppose one key to operating a guitar synth is to acknowledge its limitations. A concert flute, for example, cannot play bass notes; likewise, the low-frequency latency of a guitar synth may tell you to use it mostly in higher registers. If you work within the practical limitations of an instrument, you may get better results than if you keep expecting it to do things it cannot do...

A fair point. However, I think the analogy would be to a flute with some inoperable keys. How many flautists would use such an instrument? We should expect guitar synths or any controller to respond adequately in all usable registers. Current guitar synths do not.

 

Again, your point is well taken and good advice to those interested in exploring guitar synths as controllers.

[michael saulnier]

As a guitarist who dabbles with keys...

 

My thought about why "not a whole lot of guitarists want to sound like keyboard players"...

 

I gotta go with the "cause the MIDI controller stuff doesn't work right" crowd.

 

I'm old enough to remember when the Arp Avatar first came out. As far as I knew, the first commercial guitar synth. Man we couldn't WAIT to play with this baby.

 

Holy cow... did it suck.

 

I've tried the various synth stuff that come out since and still... it doesn't cut it. When, or if, it ever does... it will add a new dimention to guitarist choices, and SOMEBODY will make a NAME for themselves with it.

 

There's also a more "subtle" thing that may be at work. I'm not going to say that keyboard players are jealous or envious of guitar players...

 

But take this self test.

 

Quick. Name 10 famous keyboard players. Try 20.

 

Now. Just as quick. Name 50 famous guitar players. Now 100.

 

Hmmmmm... it seems our culture has selected guitar players for fame and fortune more frequently and widely than keyboard players.

 

Of course THAT'S nothing to be JEALOUS about!

 

guitplayer

[Geoff Grace]

I'm not sure that there are many more famous guitar players than there are keyboard players. I think that one's perception of fame depends on the listener's preferences. Certainly, there are plenty of opportunities to achieve fame from playing keyboards.

 

Off the top of my head, here are some famous players of keyboard instruments:

 

Chick Corea

Herbie Hancock

Lyle Mays

Rick Wakeman

Billie Joel

Elton John

George Duke

Joe Zawinul

Ben Folds

Tori Amos

...that's ten

 

Dave Brubeck

Jane Child

Thomas Dolby

Bernie Worrell

Kerry Minnear

Diana Krall

Tony Banks

Donny Hathaway

Keith Jarrett

Billy Preston

...that's twenty

 

Carole King

Jan Hammer

Joe Sample

Stevie Wonder

Patrick Moraz

Greg Hawkes

Gary Numan

Randy Newman

Jelly Roll Morton

Steve Porcaro

...that's thirty

 

Greg Philinganes

Gregg Rolie

Keith Emerson

Tony Kaye

Marian McPartland

Wendy Carlos

Rod Temperton

David Foster

Jimmy Smith

Michael McDonald

...that's forty

 

BT (Brian Transeau)

Leon Russell

McCoy Tyner

Ray Charles

Deodato

Vladimir Horowitz

Glenn Gould

Vangelis

Norah Jones

Edgar Winter

...that's fifty

 

Jeff Lorber

Patrice Rushen

Ramsey Lewis...

 

I could keep going, but I'll stop there. That's probably enough. If not, I'm sure there are plenty of gaps I've left.

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[Geoff Grace]

...Here's ten more:

 

Jerry Lee Lewis

Gregg Allman

Little Richard

Duke Ellington

Count Basie

Jools Holland

Vanessa Carlton

Alicia Keys

Fiona Apple

Bud Powell

 

(Hey, I was on a roll! )

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[Tusker]

I don't think we are working off a common defitnition of what a synth is. Some times guitar players think that "synth stuff" is when you get a midi-guitar synth. It's useful to think more broadly than that. Any time you do significant signal processing to get your tone you are doing "synth stuff."

 

Guitplayer, I don't mean to pick on you, but your comments are ideal for me to soapbox from. If you will allow me.

 

Originally posted by guitplayer:

I've tried the various synth stuff that come out since and still... it doesn't cut it. When, or if, it ever does... it will add a new dimention to guitarist choices, and SOMEBODY will make a NAME for themselves with it.

When somebody uses a wah pedal or any other kind of filter processing, they are doing "synth stuff" from the analog age. It's just not labelled that way because ... it cuts it.

 

Thinking about sound and applying signal processing tricks to it, is synthesis... regardless of how the tools are packaged and marketed. A number of guitarists and guitar effects developers are fine synthesists. They just don't think of themselves that way.

 

Others don't have a clue, and think that playing the presets on a guitar synth is "synth stuff." It is not. It is called playing the presets on a guitar synth . Many keyboard synthesists sound lousy when they play the presets. It doesn't suprise me if it sounds lousy on a guitar too.

 

Originally posted by guitplayer:

There's also a more "subtle" thing that may be at work. I'm not going to say that keyboard players are jealous or envious of guitar players...

Yes. Let's not go there. I'm a keyboardist who is priveleged to play with two gifted guitarists. One of them is more rootsy (stevie ray-ish) and the other is a closet adrian belew, complete with whale sounds.

 

I don't envy them. I enjoy playing with them. There are some things they do that I can't and vice versa. However there are a great many licks or riffs or lines we all can do, albeit slightly differently. Popular music isn't all that complex. Respecting each other's unique musical gift is key to a healthy band atmosphere. I think we have that, even when we trade roles ... in fact it allows us to trade roles. Respect is the opposite of envy.

 

Jerry

[michael saulnier]

Geoff,

 

I KNEW someone would take me up on my "challenge" and post a nice long list of keyboard players...

 

You did a good job at it!

 

Let's just say some were more "famous" than others... and this task might be a bit harder for the "man on the street"... But then again... they wouldn't be able to name as many guitar players as well...

 

In spite of your examples, I do think that generally guitar players have had more "fame" then keyboardists. But I'm sure a case could be made the other way around.

 

Of course my whole comment on this was sort of a joke and really off topic from Craig's post.

 

So now I'm off to see who some of the folks you named are...

 

You got me wondering about:

 

Kerry Minnear

Greg Hawkes

Marian McPartland

Rod Temperton

BT

Glenn Gould

Jools Holland

Bud Powell

 

I'm betting if they made your list they're "A" players... maybe I know them in the context of the band they're with?

 

Thanks though. I love learning about folks new to me...

 

guitplayer

[michael saulnier]

Originally posted by Jerry Aiyathurai:

I don't think we are working off a common defitnition of what a synth is. Some times guitar players think that "synth stuff" is when you get a midi-guitar synth. It's useful to think more broadly than that. Any time you do significant signal processing to get your tone you are doing "synth stuff."

 

Guitplayer, I don't mean to pick on you, but your comments are ideal for me to soapbox from. If you will allow me.

 

Originally posted by guitplayer:

I've tried the various synth stuff that come out since and still... it doesn't cut it. When, or if, it ever does... it will add a new dimention to guitarist choices, and SOMEBODY will make a NAME for themselves with it.

When somebody uses a wah pedal or any other kind of filter processing, they are doing "synth stuff" from the analog age. It's just not labelled that way because ... it cuts it.

 

Thinking about sound and applying signal processing tricks to it, is synthesis... regardless of how the tools are packaged and marketed. A number of guitarists and guitar effects developers are fine synthesists. They just don't think of themselves that way.

 

Others don't have a clue, and think that playing the presets on a guitar synth is "synth stuff." It is not. It is called playing the presets on a guitar synth . Many keyboard synthesists sound lousy when they play the presets. It doesn't suprise me if it sounds lousy on a guitar too.

 

Originally posted by guitplayer:

There's also a more "subtle" thing that may be at work. I'm not going to say that keyboard players are jealous or envious of guitar players...

Yes. Let's not go there. I'm a keyboardist who is priveleged to play with two gifted guitarists. One of them is more rootsy (stevie ray-ish) and the other is a closet adrian belew, complete with whale sounds.

 

I don't envy them. I enjoy playing with them. There are some things they do that I can't and vice versa. However there are a great many licks or riffs or lines we all can do, albeit slightly differently. Popular music isn't all that complex. Respecting each other's unique musical gift is key to a healthy band atmosphere. I think we have that, even when we trade roles ... in fact it allows us to trade roles. Respect is the opposite of envy.

 

Jerry

Jerry, I get your point. Unless you define synthesis to mean, "midi-guitar", many "effects" commonly used by guitarists could be viewed as "synthesis"... or using some of the capabilities of a synth.

 

But my point was to predict that some future day will bring a guitar based synth "controller" that will take advantage of the full nuances available in guitar playing technique... to drive, in a fully expressive way, some sort of synth sound module. I just don't think we've got the "tool" yet, but when it exists, someone may turn the world on its ear by fully exploiting it... maybe not... who knows.

 

My comment about jealousy was hopefully regarded as the joke I intended. I don't feel jealous about the other players I play with or listen to. I PREFER to play with people who bring great ability and ideas with their instrument. It almost always inspires me and makes it more enjoyable to play with them.

 

I respect most of the keyboard players I've played with... usually they have been the most musically educated and technically sound players in the band, and they normally don't attempt to "cover" my parts with their playing, as I'm not trying to "cover" their parts with mine.

 

I do love players who have the ability to improvise well and who like to dynamically trade ideas... if they've got great chops... it often inspires me to better ideas too!

 

guitplayer

[Salyphus]

Originally posted by guitplayer:

You got me wondering about:

 

Kerry Minnear

Greg Hawkes

Marian McPartland

Rod Temperton

BT

Glenn Gould

Jools Holland

Bud Powell

 

I'm betting if they made your list they're "A" players... maybe I know them in the context of the band they're with?

Glenn Gould, Bud Powell and Jools Holland had a great power pop trio called PGJ; you should look them up first. This all changed of course when Jools ran off with Marian McPartland to The Jazz Kidz. Then again, BT was one heckuva replacement!

 

Hope this was helpful.

[realtrance]

Had to chime in here eventually....

 

For many years I also felt guitar was more "singing" expressive (like a violin) than a polyphonic instrument like the piano; and that the piano had a richer, more expressive tone than any electronic instrument.

 

I don't feel that way any more. I think the limits of an electronic instrument are all in the musician, not the instrument. It is as expressive as -- and more flexible than -- any instrument in history, and the repertoire of performative skills and gestures that surround synth music-making is just in the earliest stages of development.

 

I could have bought another piano to replace a beautiful one I had once upon a time -- but I chose otherwise, and I chose wisely (for me).

 

The guitar has a very familiar, intimate sound (particularly acoustic), because of a long tradition, going hundreds if not thousands of years back in folk music.

 

Give synths a few hundred years and then get back to me.

 

No regrets,

 

rt

[Geoff Grace]

Originally posted by guitplayer:

So now I'm off to see who some of the folks you named are...

 

You got me wondering about:

 

Kerry Minnear

Greg Hawkes

Marian McPartland

Rod Temperton

BT

Glenn Gould

Jools Holland

Bud Powell

 

I'm betting if they made your list they're "A" players... maybe I know them in the context of the band they're with?

 

Thanks though. I love learning about folks new to me...

Mike, thanks for your enthusiastic response. Perhaps I can be of some assistance on your quest.

 

It's interesting that you should start your list with Kerry Minnear, the keyboard player for my favorite band of all-time, Gentle Giant . If you've not heard of them before, you might try searching for threads about them here at SSS and in the Keyboard Corner. Gentle Giant wasn't a Top 40 success, but they enjoy a very enthusiastic cult following of baby boomer musicians. Like Yes and Genesis, they were a progressive rock band comprised entirely of accomplished players. As such, each Gentle Giant band member is pretty well known by prog-heads.

 

Greg Hawkes was the keyboard player for the Cars and a pioneer of edgy new wave synth sounds. (Think of the prominent synth line in "Just What I Needed," for an example.)

 

Marian McPartland was, for a long time, probably the most famous female pianist in jazz. (Diana Krall probably now holds that title, unless one counts Norah Jones as a jazzer.) She has also achieved fame for hosting her own long running jazz radio program.

 

As a keyboard player, songwriter, and producer, Rod Temperton was a triple threat. While he wrote and played on most of Heatwave's hits ("Always and Forever," "Boogie Nights," "Groove Line," etc.) during the 70s, he's probably most famous for his Michael Jackson hits ("Thriller," "Off the Wall," and "Rock With You").

 

BT (Brian Transeau) first achieved fame as a pioneer within the established trance genre of dance music. (Note: before editing this post, I wrongly wrote that he invented this genre. See below for more on this.) He's done remix work for your man, Seal, played synth for Salt-N-Pepa, produced hits for Britney Spears ("I'm Not a Girl, Not Yet a Woman") and *NSYNC ("Pop"), and had a Top 40 hit of his own a few months ago with "Somnambulist."

 

Glenn Gould was one of the top classical pianists of the 20th century. He first became known as a child prodigy, and later in part for his eccentric behavior and for taking creative liberties while interpreting the classics.

 

Jools Holland owes much to Jerry Lee Lewis for his retro style of play as a solo artist. He was also the keyboard player for Squeeze. Like BT, he's achieved greater fame in England than here in the States.

 

Bud Powell is probably the best known jazz pianist of the bop era. He is credited as the first musician to abandon the left-hand stride style favored by earlier jazz pianists, in favor of intermittent chords (which is now the more common approach).

 

---

 

Originally posted by Salonious:

Glenn Gould, Bud Powell and Jools Holland had a great power pop trio called PGJ; you should look them up first. This all changed of course when Jools ran off with Marian McPartland to The Jazz Kidz. Then again, BT was one heckuva replacement!

 

Hope this was helpful.

Yeah, helpful at making me ROTFL! Sal, that was very funny!

 

Best,

 

Geoff