Wondering why so little buzz on the Montage?

[I-missRichardTee]

Title says it... but,

1. Does it clearly sound better then Motif XF

 

2. Are the ac pianos notably better than XF or other yamaha DP offerings?

3. How do pianos compare to the best of the Nord pianos?

 

Just seems odd there is so little on Montage.. there seemed to be more on an amp 6 months back!

[aronnelson]

It's $$$$ and heavy. Other than that 1 and 2, heck yeah!

3 I don't know.

[fjzingo]

-Trying to get som time to reprogram my montage 6 for live use since all factory sounds are bathing in reverb. Seems like the same full reverb setting on all programs...

 

-I did buy it for synth and romplersound sounds to complement my Nord Stage/electro, therefore 61 fantastic keys. The FM-X sounds are amazing, strings gorgeous!

 

-The piano sounds are great, but with a little less character than the Nord pianos - which is as expected. Played them from my Nord stage which in all honesty have quite mediocre keys for such an expensive 88. In particular when comparing to e.g. a CP4. Anyhow, I see the Montage pianos as a great bonus.

 

I suppose also many people have invested heavily into their Kronos workstations, quite difficult to pull people over to the montage.

 

[Markyboard]

Just seems odd there is so little on Montage.. there seemed to be more on an amp 6 months back!

 

IMO it goes back to this thread

 

We're in the "put your money where your text is" phase. We'll hear from those that have one and want to share some good or not so good impressions, or those considering one and wanting to hear of people's experience thus far. No different than any other board. Maybe people who have them thus far are using them like Motifs and don't have much interesting to report - good or bad.

 

Shockingly we're not hearing much on that FM-X programming experience

[Song80s]

Title says it... but,

1. Does it clearly sound better then Motif XF

 

2. Are the ac pianos notably better than XF or other yamaha DP offerings?

3. How do pianos compare to the best of the Nord pianos?

 

Just seems odd there is so little on Montage.. there seemed to be more on an amp 6 months back!

 

$4000 could be part of the reason behind the recent cricket noise.

[RABid]

I thought there was a lot of buzz on it. Much of it negative.

 

I bought one.

I expressed my thoughts on the poor MIDI implementation.

I am waiting for them to release an update to address the MIDI deficiencies.

 

I can either sit quietly and wait, or I can bitch and groan at every opportunity about not being able to sit my Montage 7 on top of a 88 hammer action controller and play multiple parts from two keyboards.

[jimmymio]

It's $$$$ and heavy. Other than that 1 and 2, heck yeah!

 

Couldn't have said it better.

[BRW]

...not being able to sit my Montage 7 on top of a 88 hammer action controller and play multiple parts from two keyboards.

 

I thought that this is now possible with update v1.2? At least in a recent video, mr. Ujjie plays separate parts from two keyboards. Or is that not what you meant.

[burningbusch]

Shockingly we're not hearing much on that FM-X programming experience

 

It's been said many times before, but bears repeating:

 

FM synthesis is a nightmare inside of a Rubik's Cube wrapped in a graduate-level audio physics course taught in a foreign language.

 

Busch.

[Bobadohshe]

I think there's a little bit of a multiple personality thing with the Montage. This may explain why there is no one uniform chorus of praise from any one group. There's a group of synth heads that totally gush over it's FM capabilities. Others seem to be very focused on the quality of pianos (which surprises me but I guess shouldn't). Still others (like me) are interested in its capabilities as a ROMpler and live gigging machine.

 

As a newer, badder Motif it is working awesome for my purposes. Fortunately I wasn't one that used sequencing so I don't miss that. But the sonic quality, integration of flash memory, ease of use with the touch screen and the tactile layout of everything is pretty bitching. It's also beautiful. Perhaps a little $pendy but it was worth it to me.

[MurMan]

I stopped by GC last weekend to check out the Labor Day sale. Spent more time with the Montage.

 

The more I see the Super Knob, the less I like it. I know that this is superficial and is about the last reason one should use to judge a great keyboard like this, but the size, shape, and color of that knob just bugs me. Even with the light turned off.

[SeaGtGruff]

FM synthesis is a nightmare inside of a Rubiks Cube wrapped in a graduate-level audio physics course taught in a foreign language.

 

You, sir, are my new favorite person to quote... except for the catastrophe that you left out the apostrophe.

[Markyboard]

'

[RABid]

...not being able to sit my Montage 7 on top of a 88 hammer action controller and play multiple parts from two keyboards.

 

I thought that this is now possible with update v1.2? At least in a recent video, mr. Ujjie plays separate parts from two keyboards. Or is that not what you meant.

 

That's exactly what I am talking about. Never received notice of the update. Looking for it now. ... Hmmmm. Wonder if that is what they are calling MIDI single channel mode? I don't see anything else in the OS update description that might do that. Either way, I'll update over the weekend and try it.

[fjzingo]

The midi single mode lets you play the full performance, dont know if you can for example layer two parts to the same channel?

[Iconoclast]

I spent some time wandering through the manual (s) for it last week and let me tell you, I want no part of it. There's 3 manuals of increasing complexity and boredom. I think you need to get a Phd in Yamaha to really do anything with it. Otherwise you're just playing the stock patches and creating layers and splits from that.

[KeyMoe]

I think there's a little bit of a multiple personality thing with the Montage. This may explain why there is no one uniform chorus of praise from any one group. There's a group of synth heads that totally gush over it's FM capabilities. Others seem to be very focused on the quality of pianos (which surprises me but I guess shouldn't). Still others (like me) are interested in its capabilities as a ROMpler and live gigging machine.

 

As a newer, badder Motif it is working awesome for my purposes. Fortunately I wasn't one that used sequencing so I don't miss that. But the sonic quality, integration of flash memory, ease of use with the touch screen and the tactile layout of everything is pretty bitching. It's also beautiful. Perhaps a little $pendy but it was worth it to me.

 

Very well said and exactly how and why I have the Montage!!!

 

[MotiDave]

I want one. Not quite bad enough yet to go shopping but I want one

[aronnelson]

> FM synthesis is a nightmare inside of a Rubiks Cube

 

FM synthesis helped me get into grad school and I can't believe I used to love it. Now I want no part of it. It's in my Kronos, but I tend to ignore it.

 

The Montage sounds amazing but a lot of the programming tactics remind me of my SY99.

[ScottKahn]

It's a beast of a synth... here's our in-depth review:

http://musicplayers.com/reviews/keyboard/2016/0816_YamahaMontage.php

 

 

[Iconoclast]

The other reason I'll never get one is my wife will never stop singing that song from Team America World Police

 

[DrSynth]

Shockingly we're not hearing much on that FM-X programming experience

 

It's been said many times before, but bears repeating:

 

FM synthesis is a nightmare inside of a Rubik's Cube wrapped in a graduate-level audio physics course taught in a foreign language.

 

Busch.

 

> FM synthesis is a nightmare inside of a Rubiks Cube

 

FM synthesis helped me get into grad school and I can't believe I used to love it. Now I want no part of it. It's in my Kronos, but I tend to ignore it.

 

The Montage sounds amazing but a lot of the programming tactics remind me of my SY99.

 

From a couple of accomplished VL1 guys, aren't you being a little harsh on FM ?

 

FM-X really doesn't have much in common with the SY99, it's a flavor of the FS1r with massive opportunity for real time control.

 

Manny

 

BTW-- Busch, check your PM

[Markay]

It's been said many times before, but bears repeating:

 

FM synthesis is a nightmare inside of a Rubik's Cube wrapped in a graduate-level audio physics course taught in a foreign language.

 

Busch.

 

I am so glad you clarified that - as someone who is late to the party I thought it was just my lack of ability that resulted in my struggling with FM.

[Markyboard]

FM-X really doesn't have much in common with the SY99, it's a flavor of the FS1r with massive opportunity for real time control.

 

The FM part is pretty much the same whether we're talking DX7, SY77/99, FS1R, FM-8 etc. You have a number of operators (typically between 4-8) that act as carriers or modulators depending on the configuration/algorithm you select. You mess with the frequency and amplitude (often controlled by a dedicated envelope) of a subset of these and voila, sound is produced. Depending on the model/generation of your FM machine you may get additional real filters, selectable waveforms (including PCM samples), real time control over certain parameters etc. But at the core they all work the same way.

 

I agree FM is extremely difficult to grasp, let alone become proficient with IF you're trying to come up with a preconceived sound (or even just get in the ball park). My hats off to those that can do this well, but it ain't me. On the other hand for experimenting and just seeing what you can come up with I think it's a blast, if you have a good interface. And I've come up with more than a few happy surprises. In this regard I think it's much like a modular although I get that neither one is everyone's cup of tea. BTW we all know the original DX7 had a terrible interface only outdone by the FS1R (without an editor).

 

I like the matrix approach of FM-8 and was hoping to hear how Montage folks were getting along with it's interface. A number of folks expressed excitement in getting back to FM when the Montage was announced. However, "buzz" isn't the only thing lacking in regard to people's experience/impressions.

 

 

[Tusker]

FM synthesis helped me get into grad school and I can't believe I used to love it. Now I want no part of it. It's in my Kronos, but I tend to ignore it.

 

[OT] Hey Aron, Could you speak a little bit about this. (What type of interface/sound generation scheme, your interest, etc.)

 

I have to think that some sort of creative overlay is always possible today to make FM less detailed ... and more primal. I don't think the Montage has it, so a lot of people are going to use the factory FM programs or tweak them just a tiny bit ... as many of us did on the DX series synths.

[burningbusch]

From a couple of accomplished VL1 guys, aren't you being a little harsh on FM ?

 

Manny

 

Hi Manny. Harsh, yeah pretty much so. I do agree with Markyboard above that if you're coming at FM with a particular sound in mind, you have to have a really good idea of how that is best made in the carrier/modulator world and it's not something self apparent. Most of my programming in FM used existing programs as templates. Experimentation is fun and can quickly lead to interesting results for sure.

 

But with subtractive synthesis, you start with a specific waveform and go from there. Once you understand the basics, it's pretty easy to dial in what you want from scratch. Additive, if you understand the harmonic series and partials it makes complete sense. Even modeling (reed, brass, string) makes sense as you're provided access to the various elements along the way designed to impact the sound in a musical/physical way, e.g. the bell of the horn, the elasticity of the string, etc. It can get overwhelming quickly, but if you refer back to the documentation certain people provided (wink, wink) it's logical.

 

FM is certainly versatile. If you think it's just about FM Rhodes you don't get it. I think it can sound current and is absolutely viable for making "modern" sounds.

 

Busch.

 

 

[I-missRichardTee]

Where do Montage Ac pianos fall into the existing boards out there?

My friends think the Nord are the cats meow.

Are Montage ac pianos equal or better than CP4, CP5, CP1, Nord's best, Kronos?

Same question for Elec pianos?

[MurMan]

Sorry to keep going OT on your thread IMRT, but I recently read Dr. Chowning's original paper on FM in music and Busch's quote reminded me of something.

 

I do agree with Markyboard above that if you're coming at FM with a particular sound in mind, you have to have a really good idea of how that is best made in the carrier/modulator world and it's not something self apparent.

 

This is exactly what Chowling did. He used research by others on how the harmonics in instruments such as bells and trumpets evolved over time and set up his FM simulations to recreate their sounds. He got most of the way there using the math. Although I'm sure he tweaked the parameters a lot, there's no way to program it purely by ear.

 

Chowling's paper might be interesting to others here. Just ignore the math, especially the Bessel functions! His comments about FM sounding natural because it has evolving harmonics which cannot be easily re-created with additive or subtractive synthesis are interesting.

[DrSynth]

Sorry to keep going OT on your thread IMRT, but I recently read Dr. Chowning's original paper on FM in music and Busch's quote reminded me of something.

 

I do agree with Markyboard above that if you're coming at FM with a particular sound in mind, you have to have a really good idea of how that is best made in the carrier/modulator world and it's not something self apparent.

 

This is exactly what Chowling did. He used research by others on how the harmonics in instruments such as bells and trumpets evolved over time and set up his FM simulations to recreate their sounds. He got most of the way there using the math. Although I'm sure he tweaked the parameters a lot, there's no way to program it purely by ear.

 

Chowling's paper might be interesting to others here. Just ignore the math, especially the Bessel functions! His comments about FM sounding natural because it has evolving harmonics which cannot be easily re-created with additive or subtractive synthesis are interesting.

Going OT is cool with me. I remember going to the university library about a month after getting my DX7 in 1983 to copy that article for my summer reading.

 

BTW, it's the Bessel function behavior of harmonic amplitude with modulation index that is the main reason for Chowning's "natural sounding" comment, as harmonic evolution over time in acoustic instruments is anything but linear, as one would get from subtractive synthesis in moving a filter over a static waveform. Additive is thoroughly capable, but really inefficient compared to FM in this regard. 2-3 operators with 4 stage envelopes gets complexity that would take 32 partials with like 16 stage envelopes each.

 

Manny

[Synthoid]

I spent some time wandering through the manual (s) for it last week and let me tell you, I want no part of it. There's 3 manuals of increasing complexity and boredom.

 

Three manuals? And I thought the Motif OS was convoluted.