Soliciting gigs for own group during sideman gig

[cedar]

A little while ago, I was asked to play at a restaurant/club gig. It was very laid back. We essentially played a variety of jazz and funk standards. Aside from the leader (who invited me), I had never played with the musicians before and we did not have a set list. It turned out to be cool because everyone could play. We were essentially background dinner music, though a handful of people were paying attention.

 

Anyway, during a break, I was chatting with the restaurant manager, who told me about all of the different groups they booked. I was tempted to ask if they might be interested in booking a jazz trio I lead, but I refrained from doing so.

 

Would it have been acceptable for me to solicit work for one group while playing as a sideman for someone else's group? Does it matter if the groups are similar or play similar material?

 

I suppose the simple answer is just to ask the person who hired me if that would be cool. But I am curious whether there are some unwritten rules here and how people here would generally handle the situation.

[MathOfInsects]

Your ethics are admirable.

 

In the context you described, I think it's fine. A simple, "Is this the kind of music you usually book? I play with another group that would work well here, too" is perfectly acceptable, helps the owner out, and doesn't vulch gigs from the current band.

 

HOWEVER--if you make a habit of always piggy-backing on someone else's legwork, that's a different story. So just be sure the BL (or venue) doesn't have the opportunity to suspect that you're only taking his gigs to get your own. That will almost certainly cost you work on both ends of the equation pretty quickly.

[timwat]

My presumption is the professionally polite and correct step would be clear everything with the bandleader first.

 

There is an infamous story up here in the Bay Area East Bay. A bass player was asked to sub for a gig @ an Indian restaurant - there were a small chain of them (all owned by same family) that had jazz trios in all their locations.

 

After gig is over, bass player gets into conversation with owner (after rest of musicians packed and left). He ends up telling owner he could book the entire chain for far less than he was paying currently.

 

The guy ends up snaking the gig away from the folks who invited him. Now that guy constantly complains, "Why won't anyone ask me to play on their gigs?"

[timwat]

HOWEVER--if you make a habit of always piggy-backing on someone else's legwork, that's a different story. So just be sure the BL (or venue) doesn't have the opportunity to suspect that you're only taking his gigs to get your own.

 

When I was just starting out gigging here in the East Bay, I made that mistake, always asking bandleaders how they got that gig, who to talk to, and not knowing the professional courtesy of backing off the Eager Beaver routine. I learned to be more gracious and polite, but admittedly I stuck my foot in my mouth several times, to my own shame.

[Bill H.]

It's extremely rude to solicit your own gigs while working for someone else IMO. I wouldn't ask if it's ok either - because that's just as rude.

 

Once you've made contact, there's nothing preventing you from following up on your own time though. How the leader of the original band would take that will probably depend on how often he works the room himself.

[mynameisdanno]

Covered (along with many other topics) in Danny Barnes' excellent piece "how to play in someone else's band" which I try to re-read at least once a year.

 

Danny Barnes - how to play in someone else's band

[Joe Muscara]

I generally agree with the above, though I'd say if your group would be filling a slot the venue would be looking for anyway, that's mostly fine vs. if your group would be snaking a gig from the current group. Venues that have music are always on the lookout for groups, right?

[Moonglow]

It's extremely rude to solicit your own gigs while working for someone else IMO.....Once you've made contact, there's nothing preventing you from following up on your own time though.

I tend to agree with this. It just feels wrong to hustle your band while working for someone else.

[cedar]

It's extremely rude to solicit your own gigs while working for someone else IMO. I wouldn't ask if it's ok either - because that's just as rude.

 

Once you've made contact, there's nothing preventing you from following up on your own time though. How the leader of the original band would take that will probably depend on how often he works the room himself.

 

So for you, the distinction is the timing of the solicitation?

 

Does everyone agree that it's ok to solicit the work, if it occurs subsequent to the side-man gig? I think even that could be a problem if, for example, it potentially impacts the number of gigs for the first group.

[timwat]

I deal with this frequently. I've had several occasions where the manager/owner comes to me at a set break and initiates the inquiry, "Do you play outside of this group? Do you have your own band?" or similar.

 

My standard policy is to refer back to the bandleader, and then immediately TELL the bandleader before the set break ends, if possible. Normally, the bandleader has been fine with me responding later to the inquiry. If not, then I don't.

 

Most of the time, both the venue owner and the bandleader are cool with this.

 

But now you guys have me thinking whether I should be approaching this some other way?

 

Also, is it actually soliciting work if I'm not the guy initiating the inquiry at all - that it's the venue contact approaching and asking me?

 

Not trying to derail your thread, cedar, but now this thread has me wondering if I've been approaching it wrong.

 

tim

[timwat]

I think even that could be a problem if, for example, it potentially impacts the number of gigs for the first group.

 

Yup, that seems like a distinct possibility.

[MathOfInsects]

It's extremely rude to solicit your own gigs while working for someone else IMO. I wouldn't ask if it's ok either - because that's just as rude.

 

Once you've made contact, there's nothing preventing you from following up on your own time though. How the leader of the original band would take that will probably depend on how often he works the room himself.

 

So for you, the distinction is the timing of the solicitation?

 

Does everyone agree that it's ok to solicit the work, if it occurs subsequent to the side-man gig? I think even that could be a problem if, for example, it potentially impacts the number of gigs for the first group.

 

To me, that's far worse. Cutthroat even.

 

Your obligations are 1) to be fully "present" for and respectful of the job you're on, and 2) to avoid any behavior that will cost that band or BL further bookings there, and in fact 3) to help the current band work more, to every extent that you can, and even/especially 4) to help the club succeed, to the extent that it's in your hands.

 

"This is a great room and I know of some other bands that would fit well" hurts no one, IMO.

 

I play with other freelancers at almost every gig, and since we all tend to mutually-but-separately know the bookers for the rooms, nearly every job involves some sidebar conversation between one of us "other" musicians and the booker. We all have other projects that are on the booker's radar. These face-to-face opportunities make us ALL more valuable, both to the room--by helping bring in future well-fitting acts--and to the current group, by players being of sufficient stature to warrant the conversation in the first place.

 

IMO, waiting until after the band plays, and making a behind-the-scenes phone call, is potentially disrespectful and undermining. Just do jobs 1-4, and the rest will fall into place naturally and beneficially.

 

[J. Dan]

If it's in conversation and it comes up that you play in other groups, that's just telling the truth. I wouldn't lie and say no. If they inquire about your availability and it leads to a gig, great. Now actively pursuing...as someone else framed it "piggy backing" is another story.

[Ross Ward]

Covered (along with many other topics) in Danny Barnes' excellent piece "how to play in someone else's band" which I try to re-read at least once a year.

 

Danny Barnes - how to play in someone else's band

I'd never read this before. An excellent summary. Thanks for sharing!

[Bill H.]

Most of us in this forum have been gigging for years, and we've all been involved in situations (and grey areas) not covered in that article though. Some have been mentioned already.

 

If a player is in another band that also works the room, knows the manager, and the subject of available dates comes up? Sure. It happens from time to time, and no one thinks twice about it*

 

If a manager you don't really know asks questions about your other projects? I'd handle it with a meeting or phone call, but later and off the leader's clock.

 

To hit on a room cold as a sideman based on chit-chat during a break? I wouldn't do it, unless the manager was letting you know that he wasn't happy with the leader for some reason. And even then I dunno... it's kind of sleazy. It would have to be based on how tight I am with the leader, how often he works the room...

 

Lots of grey areas.

 

*Edit: I remember the last time this happened. The drummer (who was in another band that worked the room) was talking to the manager during a break, and when we came back onstage the leader turned to him and said "Did you just score a gig?"

 

He just smiled back. The rest of us were laughing, but the leader was pretty annoyed. For a moment anyway

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MathOfInsects]

I think one way to look at it is this: if, during that conversation, instead the owner had said, "I've got another group who is looking for a keyboard player, are you taking other gigs?" you'd be grateful for the hook-up and the BL wouldn't care. More power to you. Same holds even if it's the owner's son's band.

 

NOW: if instead, the owner said, "I've got a BETTER band for you to play with, come do this gig and leave these clowns alone," that would be bad feelings all around.

 

IMO, the same is true in the inverse. If you're helping the place by offering another band that would suit it well--even if it happens to be "yours"--that's win-win all around.

 

If you're doing anything more aggressive, underhanded, or shady than that, different story. Then you're disrespecting and even essentially stealing from your BL.

[JohnH]

I'm friends with a lot of bands and sub with a lot . I don't try to steal any of their gigs.

[MorayM]

For me, the key question is "am I taking a gig away from this band?" If the answer is no, then go for it. Taking a gig at the local heavy metal toilet while playing Play That Funky Music for a 50th in a pub is treading on no one's toes.

[Outkaster]

For some reason at least around here in NYS people think that a lot of bands/musicians are supposed to place nice in the sandbox and the truth of the matter is people dontThere is always competition. People can act like there is no competition but there is always an undercurrent of it. I gig in three good size cities and its the same in all three places because venues get less and less. Luckily I know my landscape and try not to burn bridges as it also requires you to be ahead of the curve. Managing yourself/band is a chess game and you have to know how to move. Currently I have a band on my tail, playing the same kind of music as we do. They steal the ideas for the songs we do, the arrangements and try to call the same clubs to get gigs. The owners of these venues have even contacted me to ask questions about them. They post passive-aggressive things on Facebook, book gigs the same nights as we are playing to try to steal our crowd and post videos of themselves playing the same music we do. I do my best not to feed into it and it usually backfires on them. If you can establish good relationships with musicians and sub jobs its always a good thing. Personally if I liked the guys I wouldnt try to book something flat out in front of them if it was going to undercut what they were doing. Anytime I sub its with a soul band anyway so its usually not the place I would be trying to get into with my own band anyway.

[clpete]

If your at a club that rotates various bands, I don't feel that getting your foot in the door is an issue. You will take someones potential gig, but not necessarily the band your subbing in.

 

We had a bass player sit in and soon after he had his band playing that club. They didn't take any of our gigs as

we have a secure spot about once a month. If they did take gigs then they are a better fit for the club. When we started playing this club another band was playing about once a month. They might feel that we took their gig, but I don't think they blame us. We are a better fit and bring in a larger crowd. When you get a new place to play you most likely take a potential gig away from another band. Every time you gig your filling a spot that another band can't fill. If you discount a club as a potential gig spot because you subbed there you may run out of places.

 

So is it ok to talk to the booker if your band has already played the club?

So is it ok for some else in your band to contact the club?

So do you tell your band not to go after gigs at this club because you can't ethically take a gig?

So I guess if they do book a gig there they may have to get someone to sub.

Oh, crap who ever they get to sub will most likely want to book it too.

So, don't mention that you played the club to your band as they may try to get a gig.

 

Now trying to steal a once a year event type gig or a house band spot from another band your involved with is a issue. I was asked to go after such a gig from a band I was in that my old band played every year. I told them I couldn't do it. Another band I was in went after this gig while I was still in the band that had gig. This was an uncomfortable conflict.

[Ulf]

Playing bass as my main job, but often subbing on keyboard when asked to, I make sure to make contacts wherever I go. If any of the acts I play in would be a good match for a venue I'm in, I put in a word and leave contact information.

 

Never seen this as a problem.

[Tusker]

The drummer (who was in another band that worked the room) was talking to the manager during a break, and when we came back onstage the leader turned to him and said "Did you just score a gig?"

 

He just smiled back. The rest of us were laughing, but the leader was pretty annoyed. For a moment anyway

 

I used to work with a sleazy player (happened to be a drummer) who would show up early for our gigs to try to score something for his other projects. Our band leader didn't like it and although the drummer was charming and easy in other respects, it adversely affected our band vibe. It got to be a thing. His nick became "third little pig" because he was always early to market. He got kicked out at some point. By contrast the bass player would work the relationships on his own time and nary a thing was said. It's about how you do it.

[Bob L]

I had a related situation where a venue my band consistently plays at double booked an event. I found out when I looked at their web site and the "wrong" band was listed. I immediately contacted the venue, and they told me that since we were booked first before the mistake (and we play there consistently) they would straighten it out. The gig was a ladies only event, for good money.

 

Then the venue asked me if we were willing to "give up the gig" as the other band asked them if we would do so (they had invited friends from out of town to see them... was one reason). So the BL in the other band emailed me, and I politely told them we would keep the gig, and if we ever could throw something their way we would.

 

It was kind of bizarre. But word to the wise, check your venues web sites/Facebook/etc. for these kind of problems. Last thing you want is two bands showing up for the same gig!

[kanker.]

I deal with this frequently. I've had several occasions where the manager/owner comes to me at a set break and initiates the inquiry, "Do you play outside of this group? Do you have your own band?" or similar.

 

My standard policy is to refer back to the bandleader, and then immediately TELL the bandleader before the set break ends, if possible. Normally, the bandleader has been fine with me responding later to the inquiry. If not, then I don't.

 

Most of the time, both the venue owner and the bandleader are cool with this.

 

But now you guys have me thinking whether I should be approaching this some other way?

 

Also, is it actually soliciting work if I'm not the guy initiating the inquiry at all - that it's the venue contact approaching and asking me?

 

Not trying to derail your thread, cedar, but now this thread has me wondering if I've been approaching it wrong.

 

tim

I did a gig last night, last minute fill in, and the bandleader is a good friend who has a steady Wednesday night at this restaurant. The owner is very much into having music in his restaurant, has jazz going 5 nights a week I think, looking to expand to 6 in the near future. The owner really dug what I brought to the table, and after the gig he asked if I'd like to do some gigs there once things slow down for me. In this case, I had no problem saying yes because he generally has the same groups on particular nights, but not every night, so I wouldn't be displacing anyone - basically everyone who has a night there is a friend of mine, and because chances are if I did take a gig there, I'd be hiring players who are already gigging there - and I wouldn't be displacing the bandleader.

 

If it were a thing where I was taking a gig away from someone else, again, quite likely friends, I wouldn't take the gig. The pool of musicians on the jazz scene here is big for the size of the city, but small enough that we pretty much all know each other, and are pretty much all friends. It's just not worth it to take someone else's gig.

[Baldwin Funster]

Not the same situation but not very different . Being an opening band and booking your band into the venue after your set is over. Thats the whole reason you take a gig like that right?

[I-missRichardTee]

It's extremely rude to solicit your own gigs while working for someone else IMO. I wouldn't ask if it's ok either - because that's just as rude.

 

Once you've made contact, there's nothing preventing you from following up on your own time though. How the leader of the original band would take that will probably depend on how often he works the room himself.

 

+1000 times infinity, plus one.

 

In the strongest possible terms, it is verboten, a no no, grounds for never working with that leader, plus destruction of your rep as a person not to be trusted or hired for too obvious reasons.

This is not my ( generally unpopular around here ) invention, but the general tenor of the 20 th century bands I inhabited.

This current century seems like all manner of rules are twisted in the name of selfishness. I have contempt for those "new modern" paradigms.

 

edit... and so called friendship? nonsense.

 

 

[Baldwin Funster]

Not the same situation but not very different . Being an opening band and booking your band into the venue after your set is over. Thats the whole reason you take a gig like that right?

 

Funny to me that after expressing the unethics of sniping a gig as a sideman, no one has an opinion to express on the same issue as an opening band. Or you have me blocked in your preferences. That would be funny to me too.