Like keyboard players...

[timwat]

...horn players complain they're never heard in the mix.

 

One of my good buds (a trumpet player) was talking about this on FB. Horn players frustrated that even during solos, they can't be heard in the typical mix these days. And forget about KBs. All you hear is kick, bass and some shrill, unintelligible version of lead vocals.

 

So he asked the simple question - "Why is this?"

 

My answer was that trained, experienced sound men are rare and a precious commodity - someone who knows how to use EQ, someone who knows how to "say" something in his mix, someone who knows how to use all the normal tools to accomplish something more than simply "balanced". It's a hard, thankless job (no one ever notices you unless something goes wrong - and it's often not your fault).

 

But I know lots of well-intended, music loving sound guys - who don't have any reasonable understanding of the gear, what their purpose and role is, and have never been formally trained by someone with experience who knew what they were doing.

 

What are some reasons you think good sound engineers are hard to find? And that horns take the same backseat priority as keyboards do in the typical live mix?

[MotiDave]

because too many clubs pay their sound guy $100 a night at most for 5-6 hrs of work?

 

the venues that pay sound engineers appropriately have great sound. i am sniffing a correlation ...

[MurMan]

They mic horn players??? Tim, what kind of sound guys are you dealing with?

[ITGITC]

What are some reasons you think good sound engineers are hard to find?

You answered your own question, Tim...

 

It's a hard, thankless job (no one ever notices you unless something goes wrong - and it's often not your fault).

 

--

 

And if you've ever booked a gig, played keys, plus LH bass and vox, lugged & set up the PA, AND run sound from stage...

 

 

No. Not for me.

 

But if you have a guy who knows what he's doing sitting out front and actively running sound... and on top of that, if you've got a tight band with a drummer who listens and a bass player who can lock in with his groove... add a great front man/woman... plus spot-on backing vocals... and a tasteful guitarist who doesn't crank it to 11...

 

You might have a chance.

Pinch me somebody. Ahma DREAMIN'.

 

 

 

[BbAltered]

Ha Ha Ha! RE: a recent thread on this very topic....

 

No no - the problem with trumpet players and keyboard players getting decent sound in a mix is because trumpet players and keyboard players don't bring a DI box to the gig!

 

And criticizing the sound person only reveals your bad attitude. Ya gotta be careful with that.

 

Have fun!

[Joe Muscara]

Ha Ha Ha! RE: a recent thread on this very topic....

 

No no - the problem with trumpet players and keyboard players getting decent sound in a mix is because trumpet players and keyboard players don't bring a DI box to the gig!

 

And criticizing the sound person only reveals your bad attitude. Ya gotta be careful with that.

 

Have fun!

Watch it, you!

 

j/k

 

[Outkaster]

It's easy, they don't have the ear for music. Most pro guys say even though things are digital and guys are mixing with I-Pads they are not learning the fundamentals. Couple that with the fact that they don't have musical sense you get guys out there that don't know what they are doing. Knowing the technical end is only one part of it.

[harmonizer]

Consider this: I think it is tricky to get the volume level for the horns right even when doing a post-gig mix.

 

I record some of our gigs on a 12-track multitrack recorder, and we have a sax (me) and trumpet or trombone playing on many of the songs. On some songs like 25 or 6 to 4, the horns play in between the vocal lines and you want them pretty loud. On other songs like Them Changes, the horns play while the lead vocalist sings, and you want the volume of the horns to be lower relative to the vocalist.

 

Trumpet and trombone present a special problem for the sound man in that the trombone can be so loud, and the trumpet so piercing. The sound man might hear one piercing trumpet note played with the bell close to the mic during sound check, and think "OMG, don't need to hear that blasting over the band again for the next 3 hours", and turn it down. Before the gig, the sound man does not know if the band's horn players will know how to regulate their volume (and closeness to the mic) based on the needs of each song. And will the same mics be used for backup vocalists and horn players at different times?

[Garubi]

Ha Ha Ha! RE: a recent thread on this very topic....

 

No no - the problem with trumpet players and keyboard players getting decent sound in a mix is because trumpet players and keyboard players don't bring a DI box to the gig!

 

And criticizing the sound person only reveals your bad attitude. Ya gotta be careful with that.

 

Have fun!

 

LOL

 

What I understand now after (too) many years of live gigging is that it's not only a problems of levels... but a lot of EQ: expert sound men do their best to create the right "holes" in the mix so every instrument has it's "place"... obviously they can not achieve the level of precision one can have in studio mixing, and it's needed at least a mixer with parametric EQ... but too many "professional" still limit themselves to adjust the levels....

[J. Dan]

Most sound guys - especially aren't used to mixing horns, I would guess. They're probably not all that used to mixing keys either. The good, experienced ones are, but even for them, there are challenges on both of these - keys patches can have wildly different volumes and EQs that can be low in the mix in one song then blast their system all of a sudden the next song, unless the keyboard player has done his homework ahead of time and got them leveled out. I find that sound guys who have worked with me before and know me are more likely to have me up in the mix. During sound check I always run through a variety of patches - pianos, organs, synth leads, brass - that I will be using that night so they can hear what they sound like relative to one another and see the peak levels relative to one another. Horns sort of depend. Often you have a section with a couple mics a coupe feet away, which gives a nice mix, but if a soloist steps up to one, he'll blast it. So I wouldn't doubt if they put some heavy compression on it. If each horn is close mic'd with a clip-on, then there is not much dynamic change from the various comps and fills to the solo. That means the sound guy has to know it's supposed to be a solo and turn it up. Which brings me to my 3rd point....

 

No matter how talented the sound guy, if he's not paying close attention and also familiar with the music he's playing, things (like a solo) will be missed. The best sound guys, regardless of how shitty they might be getting paid, take pride in the mix and try hard to get it right. This means listening intently and actively mixing, as opposed to "set and forget". Of course this can have bad side effects, also. I did a gig where I noticed at times the lead singer was hard to hear and other times it was fine. I figured it was just a matter of how loud he was singing different ranges. One song didn't have keys so I stepped out front. He sounded a little quiet in the mix. His level was already just about all the way up and the meter on his gain showed lower than I would expect. The sound guy boosted the gain until it was peaking close to 0dB and mixed accordingly with the fader. The mix sounded awesome. I'm assuming after that (I don't know because I was on stage) that there were songs where he was real hot and the sound guy backed off the gain to prevent clipping. Unlike fader changes, gain changes affect monitor level. On break the singer complained that his level was all over the place and confirmed what I witnessed. HE was backing off the mic when singing louder/higher, and the sound guy was compensating by boosting gain, then when he's eat the mic, the sound guy would cut gain. Sound guy was watching levels keeping them where they should be so he could mix accordingly without worrying about clipping or feedback. Was the singer overcompensating his mic dynamics, or was the sound guy over zealous....mixing too actively. I don't know, but it sounded great out front, that's for sure. Sound guy was also actively adjusting EQ's and placing tempo sync'd delays in all the right places, etc.

[Ross Ward]

Spot on, brother. I find the biggest hindrance to a good mix is the sound guy's unfamiliarity with the music/band. There's a reason that major tours have weeks of full rehearsal before they hit the road. Lights, sound, video. Everybody has to be familiar with the songs to put on the best performance.

[synthizen2]

I have always chalked up this problem up to the notion that most sound guys out there (not the PRO type, but the usual kind you get at small clubs) grew up listening mostly (and sometimes ONLY) to guitar/bass/drums music. Mostly "motorcycle" type guys who grew up listening to 3-piece blues type stuff. They simply don't have an ear, nor a general reference, for what a keyboard or horns are supposed to be doing, so they don't give those instruments any priority in their taskload for the evening. As long as they hear the guitar, bass, and drums coming thru strong in the mix, that's really all they care about.

[The Real MC]

And then there are the "sound guy" who are secret cronies with one of the musicians, usually the guitar hero. Since I own the PA system in our southern rock band, I have sole approval who operates my system.

 

We had a substitute running our PA at a recent show, a friend of the guitar hero. When I walked out front during a song, I no longer heard a cohesive band mix and the guitar hero was loud and clear.

 

At the next show, our regular sound guy couldn't get the system to sound right. I found that the substitute on the previous show had no concept of subgroups and had panned the instruments the wrong way. That explained why the group mix was bad back then.

 

I used the occasion to announce that the substitute was no longer doing sound for us.

[The Real MC]

I have always chalked up this problem up to the notion that most sound guys out there (not the PRO type, but the usual kind you get at small clubs) grew up listening mostly (and sometimes ONLY) to guitar/bass/drums music. Mostly "motorcycle" type guys who grew up listening to 3-piece blues type stuff. They simply don't have an ear, nor a general reference, for what a keyboard or horns are supposed to be doing, so they don't give those instruments any priority in their taskload for the evening. As long as they hear the guitar, bass, and drums coming thru strong in the mix, that's really all they care about.

 

Unfortunately that is too common.

 

Fifteen years ago I started accumulating gear for a decent PA system because I was too frustrated with other bend members supplying sound gear that was, frankly, poor quality. The first component I purchased was a decent mixer and they immediately noticed the improvement. I now own a complete PA and monitor system that people have told me is the best they have heard.

 

The only thing I am missing is a trailer to haul it all. In the southern rock band the drummer carried the PA in this nice box truck he had; now that I am leaving in a few months and taking the PA with me, I am seriously considering hiring out sound reinforcement once I get a trailer. I have developed a good ear for mixing and can do a better job than a lot of idiots out there. I'm beginning to think that I would be better appreciated running sound than playing keyboards on stage.

[NewImprov]

I work for a company that provides stage, lights and sound. Last weekend, we were doing a local outdoor music festival, and the headliner was a bay area band with various members of the classic psychedelic and jam bands from the 70's. Good band, not my style, but they were clearly good players. Keyboardist was great, he had an FA-08 and a Nord Electro, and his playing was tasteful, and sounds were spot on. Problem was, every time he took a solo, he was way too quiet. The guitar solos all came up as needed, too much for my taste most of the time, but the keyboard solos all stayed at his accompanying volume. The band was touring with their own soundguy, who seemed like he'd been doing this for years, so he should've known better. Kinda annoying.

[MotiDave]

Most sound guys - especially aren't used to mixing horns, I would guess. They're probably not all that used to mixing keys either. The good, experienced ones are, but even for them, there are challenges on both of these - keys patches can have wildly different volumes and EQs that can be low in the mix in one song then blast their system all of a sudden the next song, unless the keyboard player has done his homework ahead of time and got them leveled out. I find that sound guys who have worked with me before and know me are more likely to have me up in the mix. During sound check I always run through a variety of patches - pianos, organs, synth leads, brass - that I will be using that night so they can hear what they sound like relative to one another and see the peak levels relative to one another. Horns sort of depend. Often you have a section with a couple mics a coupe feet away, which gives a nice mix, but if a soloist steps up to one, he'll blast it. So I wouldn't doubt if they put some heavy compression on it. If each horn is close mic'd with a clip-on, then there is not much dynamic change from the various comps and fills to the solo. That means the sound guy has to know it's supposed to be a solo and turn it up. Which brings me to my 3rd point....

 

No matter how talented the sound guy, if he's not paying close attention and also familiar with the music he's playing, things (like a solo) will be missed. The best sound guys, regardless of how shitty they might be getting paid, take pride in the mix and try hard to get it right. This means listening intently and actively mixing, as opposed to "set and forget". Of course this can have bad side effects, also. I did a gig where I noticed at times the lead singer was hard to hear and other times it was fine. I figured it was just a matter of how loud he was singing different ranges. One song didn't have keys so I stepped out front. He sounded a little quiet in the mix. His level was already just about all the way up and the meter on his gain showed lower than I would expect. The sound guy boosted the gain until it was peaking close to 0dB and mixed accordingly with the fader. The mix sounded awesome. I'm assuming after that (I don't know because I was on stage) that there were songs where he was real hot and the sound guy backed off the gain to prevent clipping. Unlike fader changes, gain changes affect monitor level. On break the singer complained that his level was all over the place and confirmed what I witnessed. HE was backing off the mic when singing louder/higher, and the sound guy was compensating by boosting gain, then when he's eat the mic, the sound guy would cut gain. Sound guy was watching levels keeping them where they should be so he could mix accordingly without worrying about clipping or feedback. Was the singer overcompensating his mic dynamics, or was the sound guy over zealous....mixing too actively. I don't know, but it sounded great out front, that's for sure. Sound guy was also actively adjusting EQ's and placing tempo sync'd delays in all the right places, etc.

If the keyboardist' signal is widely varying up and down without apparent musical purpose, sometimes low and sometimes blasting the system out, he sorta deserves whatever he gets from the FOH.

 

That said, the trend that the FOH tends to run the keys low is a truth. I usually run my main volume at 65% so I can lift my accompany volume after his initial set if I need it and still have some room for leads. I get a friend to scout out front

[Paul Harrison]

Keyboardist was great, he had an FA-08 and a Nord Electro, and his playing was tasteful, and sounds were spot on. Problem was, every time he took a solo, he was way too quiet. The guitar solos all came up as needed, too much for my taste most of the time, but the keyboard solos all stayed at his accompanying volume.

 

Back when I kept hearing that my comping sounded fine but my solos weren't cutting through (especially compared with the guitar levels!), I started plugging each keyboard into an A/B footswitch with one side going to one channel of the mixer set to its usual level and the other side going to another channel set to a higher level (or some A/B switches have level controls built in). I set the comping level as a benchmark during the soundcheck, then during the gig, I just hit the footswitch to flip between comping and soloing levels.

 

When I did this, people started commenting on my "clearer" sound.

 

Of course, this can be done with the expression pedal on an organ, or patch levels on some keyboards or the master volume control on any instrument, but on an organ, the pedal affects the tone (and any overdrive) as well as the level, and in any case, there often isn't time, or a free hand (especially if playing LH bass), to mess with volume settings on the fly, whereas the A/B footswitch is simple to set up and easy to use.

 

[Bobadohshe]

I agree with everyone's points about a good sound guy.

 

I'll also add that it helps if the band (especially the drummer) knows how to play at a reasonable stage volume. Horns have a better time of it when the band isn't blasting on stage.

[El Lobo]

Like everybody, I have worked with good sound engineers, a couple of great ones, a lot of mediocre ones, and a few really terrible ones. I guess it's a normal bell curve. But my experience is that the bad to mediocre ones simply don't know know how to use their gear. They don't know how to engineer live sound. It's like a piano player trying to use a digital board and not understanding half of what the knobs and buttons and various settings are supposed to do and how to use them. A bad sound engineer is a player who's not very good on his axe. For example,

... our regular sound guy couldn't get the system to sound right. I found that the substitute on the previous show had no concept of subgroups and had panned the instruments the wrong way. That explained why the group mix was bad back then.

The bad sound people are incompetent. They don't know how to use the gear and they don't know what they're doing. Unfortunately, you never find that out until it's too late.

[J. Dan]

For you guys talking about sound check and then boosting your solos, you're in danger of clipping. Your level at sound check has nothing to do with how loud he'll mix you. You should always give the sound guy the absolute loudest patch you'll use all night at sound check so he can set the gain to the max amount WITHOUT clipping. If he sets that on a quieter sound and then you give him something significantly hotter, you'll clip. When you start playing with your quieter setting, he'll bump up the fader accordingly to get you in the mix.

[Paul Harrison]

You should always give the sound guy the absolute loudest patch you'll use all night at sound check so he can set the gain to the max amount WITHOUT clipping.

 

Yes, whether there's a sound guy at the controls or not, there has to be headroom: comping level is the benchmark, and soloing level is louder, but always below clipping.

[stillplaying]

Interesting thread.

 

We're coming down with good (young) live sound engineers here in Scotland. Good courses at our colleges and a project called In The Loop (or something like that) in Dundee down the road from me.

 

I seriously cannot remember the last gig I did where the sound engineer wasn't competent and well trained.

 

Lots of women too - Perth Horsecross, Aberdeen Beach Ballroom, and The Lemon Tree in Aberdeen (in case anyone is touring Scotland and remotely interested). The chief sound engineer in each venue was female.

 

Delighted to say it's been decades since I had to deal with hairy sweaty blokes with no high frequency hearing left.

[El Lobo]

2 of the best sound engineers I have ever worked with were women. They really knew what they were doing and you could relax and trust that the sound was as good as it could be.

[WesG]

Moe - somewhat off topic perhaps, but you might be able to get away without a trailer. Last weekend, I packed my Chevy Express 2500 with

- 6 Yorkville NX55P

- 2 Yorkville PS12P

- a big trunk full of lights

- many many stands

- many many microphones

- many many many cables

- lots of power distro

- 18U rack roadcase

- large mixer roadcase (Mackie Onyx 24-4)

- CP4

- VR09

- Leslie 147

- Hammond L111 on ROKs

- quad-folding 8' wheelchair ramp

- flat dolly

- snake

- lighting controller

- I think that's it

 

I could have gotten a couple of subs in there if absolutely necessary, but they belong to the drummer, so he got to carry them. ... eventually, I want to use this van to tow a trailer, but so far, so good. Parallel parking in front of clubs without a trailer is infinitely easier. I have a third-brake-light camera, no windows, and no problems.

 

As for solo levels - the band should not rely solely on the sound guy for bumping levels. There should be a hard rule: if you cannot hear the soloist, you are too loud!!

 

Wes

[Paul Harrison]

As for solo levels - the band should not rely solely on the sound guy for bumping levels. There should be a hard rule: if you cannot hear the soloist, you are too loud!!

 

Yes, especially when there is no sound guy!!

[Barryjam]

Just saw the Doobies with Bill Payne on keys----might as well have been a 1st year student, you could only hear bass and lead guitar, which were unbearable and distorted. Drums also low in mix. I was sitting near FOH.

 

When Journey came on, you could hear all instruments clearly.

 

Night and day!

 

(Toyota amphitheater near Sacramento)

[timwat]

That brings up an old memory.

 

Back in mid '80s, my prog rock band played the Keystone Berkeley, opening for Jeff Berlin's Vox Humana and Eric Johnson.

 

Johnson did an all-acoustic guitar and vocal set, and was the kindest, most polite young man I'd met. I'm a huge EJ fan ever since.

 

When it came time for the headliner, in walks Steve Smith with Journey's sound man. Soon as they walked up to the sound booth, all the levels got PUNISHINGLY loud. And of course, Berlin and his band (Scott Henderson, Steve Houghton, Pat Coil) open with their fusioned out version of Bach's Prelude & Fugue in C Minor.

 

We're being pummeled by Bach at 208 bpm, at aircraft engine SPL levels. Welcome to the show.

 

Lo and behold, after stuffing my ears with toilet paper, why yes, I could hear every instrument clearly.

[MorayM]

Interesting thread.

 

We're coming down with good (young) live sound engineers here in Scotland. Good courses at our colleges and a project called In The Loop (or something like that) in Dundee down the road from me.

 

I seriously cannot remember the last gig I did where the sound engineer wasn't competent and well trained.

 

Lots of women too - Perth Horsecross, Aberdeen Beach Ballroom, and The Lemon Tree in Aberdeen (in case anyone is touring Scotland and remotely interested). The chief sound engineer in each venue was female.

 

Delighted to say it's been decades since I had to deal with hairy sweaty blokes with no high frequency hearing left.

 

Welp, looks like I'm moving up north!

[BbAltered]

Just saw the Doobies with Bill Payne on keys----etc.

(Toyota amphitheater near Sacramento)

 

Wait!! Bill Payne now plays with the Doobie Bros?

[Joe Muscara]

Just saw the Doobies with Bill Payne on keys----etc.

(Toyota amphitheater near Sacramento)

 

Wait!! Bill Payne now plays with the Doobie Bros?

Since December.

 

http://billpaynecreative.com/events/

 

Don't forget that they have a long history together (Red Streamliner, for instance).