Leslie Sims

[BbAltered]

Hello. so I saw today there is a Leslie sim shoot-out over at the Keyboard Mag web-site. They compare the Lester K, the GSI Burn, the Hammond leslie pedal, the Vent II, and the Pigtroniz Rototron. They had good things to say about eache - here:

http://www.keyboardmag.com/gear/1183/review-roundup-rotary-speaker-simulator-pedals/58520

 

And I started thinking about getting a leslie sim (the article did exactly what it was supposed to do....)

 

1) In my studio I play a Hammond XK3 thru a MotionSound Pro145. You would think that having actual rotating speakers (ok, baffles) would be the "gold standard" for a Leslie sound. But when I compare the MS Pro145 to the onboard sim in the XK3, the MS Pro145 seems weak in comparison. The onboard XK# sim is much more obvious, more louder and present, and sounds nothing like the rotating baffles of the MS Pro145 - it sounds fake and cheesy compared MS Pro145. So I'm thinking the onboard sim of the XK3 is "hyped" to make it sound louder and more obvious compared to actual rotating baffles (yeah, buried somewhere in the software menus of the XK3 are some controls to "dial down" the leslie effect. I never explored those because, hey, I got a MS Pro145).

 

2) In performance, I use a Roland VR-09. The leslie sim on that is pretty wretched. If I plunked down $400 on a leslie sim, it would be to use with the VR-09. (I don't use the MS Pro145 at gigs because it doesn't fit in my car with all the other gear, and the expenditure of sweat I would have to use to get it on and off the stage). But I have to say, I gotten a bunch of very complimentary listener comments on the organ sound as is. If it works, why change things? I'm wondering what others do with their VR-09 - use the onboard effect or get a leslie sim?

[Aussie_Chicago]

You should keep in mind any "sim" is a simulation of what a mic'ed Leslie sounds like through a PA , anything that spins such as a MS or leslie will sound different. Using the sim of the XK3 as a comparison , well , sims have come a long long way since the XK3 was released. I personally use a vent mk1 on my xk3c or sk , sounds decent for me. I cant comment on the VR09, I tried one out and couldn't get past the terrible keybed action.

[richforman]

I actually like the sound of the Leslie sim on my VR-09, granted I am not nearly as discriminating or knowledgeable about this as many others here. But I too have gotten compliments from bandmates on the organ sounds, and listening to video clips from some recent gigs, I thought it sounded pretty damn good. But I actually don't like the sound of the organ without the Leslie effect, I think it sounds thin and unsatisfying without it. I often brake it briefly just for the cool dramatic effect that comes from the spin-down, but then spin it right back on again.

 

EDIT: I too was inspired by the article and by many threads about vents and burns and stuff here, to think about buying one; but in the end I am just very resistant to adding unnecessary extra complexity/wiring etc. to my rig.

[LX88]

I haven't been following the threads on the Lester K. Based on the price and the reports of good overdrive it might be worth checking out.

 

Does Guitar Center commonly stock them?

[BbAltered]

richforman - have you made any changes to the leslie sim on the VR-09 (any adjustments to menu settings in the VR-09)?

 

I myself have not, so the leslie sim on my VR-09 sounds just as it does coming from the factory. I'm wondering if I could improve the sound of the sim by changing settings.

 

(I know, I should go do some exploring on my VR-09. I used to love doing this kind of thing, but these days, all I want to do with my time is practice and work on my playing.)

[BigJPatton]

It's a good article, no surprise the Vent wins on sound, which is really all the matters.

 

Personally I think people give Leslie sims way too much mind, I'm glad there's so many options now, but it's just an effect in the end.

[richforman]

Thanks for the shout-out, BbAlt, no, I don't think I've changed the settings, I just go to the default rock organ and play with the drawbars from there; or sometimes go to preset registrations 1-3 and 3-1. I do aspire/intend to set up some of my own reg's with my own settings for leslie speeds and accel/decel times but like you just haven't gotten to it.

[ElmerJFudd]

This topic has come up recently here:

 

https://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2780974/all/Leslie_Sim_Shootout_Mojo_vs_Ve

 

And here:

 

https://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2783865/Canceled_the_Mojo_order_sprung#Post2783865

 

And here yet too:

 

https://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2755179/Leslie_Sims_in_a_Stomp_Box_Rev

 

 

[Dr88s]

Leslie Simms:

 

http://m.imdb.com/name/nm0799984/

 

 

[Bossbandbob]

I used the VR-09 sim for gigs and got it to sound pretty decent by tweaking its settings and using the Twin Leslie option. I use the Vent now though with the VR-09 for gigs as the OD is significantly better. Sounds great. I just have it all wired in and attached to my pedal board, so during set up it is just plug and play. I just plug into the VR-09 outputs,and expression pedal input. Then the outputs go to my mixer along with my PX-5s outs. Those wires,PX sustain pedal and power cords for PX and VR stay attached to the pedal board and are all snaked together and color coded and get hooked up in about 3 minutes.

[stoken6]

Leslie Simms

Aargh, I've been spelling it wrong all these years!

 

Cheers, Mike.

[The Real MC]

http://www.analoguediehard.com/studio/effects/dynacord_cls222/dynacord_cls-222.jpg

[Mike Kent]

The sound of a b3/leslie on recordings is often the reference point for many people. They haven't actually spent a lot of time (or any) playing the real thing. Of course, I recognize that that is not so true for members of this particular forum community. I grew up in a large church with a C3 and 122. Even when I played it at full volume, which was very loud, it never really showed much distortion. As the organ aged (at least 50 years old now) it has gotten dirtier, even at low volume. Years ago I also played organ for basketball games. There were 2 mics on the leslie and I never liked the sound in the arena, it sounded hokey to me but it was typical sports organ stuff. So there are considerable variations in what different people think the sound of a b3/leslie pair should be. I like that the Keyboard Mag article talks about the difference between the sound of a real Leslie up close, on mic, in a room, with or without overdrive, etc.

 

Today I have the Hammond Cream pedal, a VK-8, and a VR-09.

 

The VK-8 feels way better than the VR-09 but they have the same basic organ sound and Leslie sim. (By the way, make sure you have the later firmware of VK-8, the initial version had an awful Leslie sim.) I use the VK-8 at home but since I got the VR-09 my VK-8 doesn't leave the house very often. I take the (way lighter) VR-09 out to a gig about once a week. The Leslie Sim in the VR-09 and VK-8 are both good. They are authentic to the sound that I like, especially when used in stereo.

 

I probably prefer the sim in the Roland organs slightly over my Hammond Cream, but it's a close match. The Hammond might have the edge superior in some details and the Roland in other ways. The Hammond is not superior enough to warrant carrying an extra bit of gear; I use the built in Roland version. I like to tweak the Leslie parameters a bit and the Roland model is better for that. I generally run both rotors just a little faster than normal when at slow speed and run the horn a little slower than normal at high speed. But those settings depend on the song. The Hammond Cream has few adjustments for those kind of details.

 

I mostly use the Hammond Cream on my Rhodes and guitars.

 

My most useful organ application of the Hammond Cream is when I am not taking a dedicated organ. I can use the Hammond Cream on on my FA-06. The FA-06 has the same Roland simulations as the VK and VR. There are no drawbars but it should sound the same as the VK-8 and VR-09, right? Well it does in stereo. But the Mono implementation is all wrong on the FA-06. On VK-8 and VR-09 when you connect in Mono you get a pretty good Mono emulation. However, the FA-06 simply mixes the left and right outputs and the Leslie sim sounds horrendous when mixed to mono like that. Ugly. I have been able to tweak the parameters to get a barely passable Leslie in mono from the FA-06. But if I turn the built in effect off and run FA-06 organ through the Hammond Cream, then I've got a good simulation in mono.

 

[ElmerJFudd]

Have you updated your firmware to the most reverb on the digital Leslie Cream Pedal? The sim is apparently derived from the SK line but keyboard mag believes it's been tweaked... Not sure where they got their hands on the firmware revision. I'm having trouble finding it on the US site.

[Mike Kent]

I don't see anything about the firmware update anywhere other than the Keyboard Mag mention. I wonder if it is a factory only update, that is they started shipping products with improvements but did not make an upgrade available for units already sold.

[AnotherScott]

The VK-8 feels way better than the VR-09 but they have the same basic organ sound and Leslie sim.

Yes and no... the overdrive on the VK-8 is much better, if you're looking for dirtier organ sounds.

 

The FA-06 has the same Roland simulations as the VK and VR. There are no drawbars but it should sound the same as the VK-8 and VR-09, right? Well it does in stereo. But the Mono implementation is all wrong on the FA-06. On VK-8 and VR-09 when you connect in Mono you get a pretty good Mono emulation. However, the FA-06 simply mixes the left and right outputs and the Leslie sim sounds horrendous when mixed to mono like that.

That's a really interesting detail that you couldn't know without trying. Thanks for passing that along.

[ElmerJFudd]

Getting further off topic but don't forget the organ in the Jupiter-50/80. Same Roland engine I imagine but totally a preset call up type of board since editing the drawbars and other aspects of the sound are a pain in the arse on the user interface. But if organ is a minor player in your rig and you need the rest far more often, nice boards.

[whannah]

I can't comment on the VR-09, but for the last 8 years or so I've played an XK-3 through a Motion Sound Pro-145, similar to BbAltered's studio rig. Compared to the internal sim of the XK3 I've always thought that the pro-145 made a huge difference! I would never use the xk3 sim on a gig unless I absolutely had to. The only downside of the pro-145 was poor low-end response, but I always bring a dedicated bass amp for left hand bass, so that's no big deal.

 

Recently I bought a Mojo, sold my XK3, and the motors on my Pro145 stopped turning on the "chorale" setting. So I started practicing with the Mojo's internal sim run stereo through a guitar and bass amp. I realize it's not ideal, but honestly, it sounds fantastic!

 

I'm gonna run this setup for the next few gigs and see how it goes. It doesn't throw the sound around the room like the Pro-145, but it's so much more reliable! The downside is that you can't put any effects on the organ without it affecting the leslie sim. I'd love to put a delay and an overdrive before the leslie sim.

 

Ultimately, I want to go back to a real leslie, maybe 145/142 or 3300, to take to gigs. Even though there are great sims out there, I feel like I'm cheating when I use them!

[Jim Alfredson]

Have you updated your firmware to the most reverb on the digital Leslie Cream Pedal? The sim is apparently derived from the SK line but keyboard mag believes it's been tweaked... Not sure where they got their hands on the firmware revision. I'm having trouble finding it on the US site.

 

The cream pedal is not derived from the SK models. It is a new algorithm developed by a third party.

[ElmerJFudd]

Can you clarify that the intention is to offer the firmware update to existing owners or is it just on newer pedals, Jim? The Cream and the Leslie K?

[Delaware Dave]

"..The only downside of the pro-145 was poor low-end response .."

 

".. the motors on my Pro145 stopped turning on the "chorale" setting.."

 

Motion sound sells replacement motors. Contact them for a price: http://www.msamps.com/

 

To increase the bass response swap out the stock speaker with an Eminence Beta 12, a marked improvement in bass response. This combination is a much less expensive alternative to a 3300. Jim Alfredson had previously reported that when he played in his organissimo trio and had to supply left handed bass the 3300 didn't cut it and he had to "assist" the 3300 by running the sub-out to a powered speaker in order to get adequate bass response on stage. So you might end up with the same disappointment with a 3300, which is why the eminence speaker swap out might make sense to try first.

[Jim Alfredson]

Can you clarify that the intention is to offer the firmware update to existing owners or is it just on newer pedals, Jim? The Cream and the Leslie K?

 

I have no idea. I don't think that would be possible except at an authorized service center.

[whannah]

To increase the bass response swap out the stock speaker with an Eminence Beta 12, a marked improvement in bass response.

 

Dave, I have thought about doing this, but using an extra bass amp works pretty well, and it's not too much more to carry.

[MathOfInsects]

Wanna know something funny? I used to work in advertising, way back when I had a real job. Something about this thread title sent a distant synapse firing. Sure enough...

 

lesliesimsthewebsite.com

[Joe Muscara]

Wanna know something funny? I used to work in advertising, way back when I had a real job. Something about this thread title sent a distant synapse firing. Sure enough...

 

lesliesimsthewebsite.com

He's pretty funny!

[Morrissey]

Resurrecting this thread because a certain online retailer is running a pretty good one-day special on the Pigtronix Rototron leslie sim pedal, reviewed as part of the shoot out linked above by the OP.

 

There hasn't been much chatter about this pedal on the forum -- I think the consensus is the Vent is best, followed perhaps by the Lester K if budget is a concern.

 

Fortner & Co. opined that the Rototron is best suited for applications other than Hammond. Has anyone experimented with this pedal with their B3 clones?

[Morrissey]

Here is the write-up from the shoot out article:

 

The Pigtronix Rototron has the distinction of using all analog circuitry to generate its effect, which makes it unique. Full stereo throughput is complemented by TRS control jacks for both the high and low rotors, which means you can employ two expression pedals for continuously variable control over bass and treble rotation speeds, independently.

 

Slow and fast speeds are separately adjustable (speed switching via the usual stompbutton shares a common rise/fall time). The most dramatic control over the sound, though, is via the Depth knob. Fully counterclockwise, you get a shallow vibrato-chorus effect reminiscent of setting C1 on a vintage Hammond as heard through a stationary tone cabinet. All the way clockwise, you get exaggerated Doppler and deep tremolo that sounds as if both rotors of a speaker were recorded on-axis through very directional mics and, if you listen in stereo, panned hard. The best settings for an ideal Leslie sound put both the Fast Speed and Depth Knobs at 1 oclock.

 

The Pigtronix website claims that its analog-only design sounds warmer, fatter, and feels far more realistic that the digital rotary effects currently available from other companies. Well go with warmer and maybe even fatter, as the analog factor definitely lends something that is very immediate and present. High frequencies in particular come across very smoothly and the fast speed imparts a very pleasing shimmer. We could see reaching for this to modulate a Rhodes, Wurly, Clav, or even syntheither because the patch sounds a bit too digital or because the Rototrons take on modulation is so smooth and creamy. Its also super clean and quiet.

 

But realistic on organ? We cant see it being an upgrade from the internal simulations on the various clones we had around, with the possible exception of the Roland VK7. Fortner did offer one counterpoint: This reminds me, more than a little, of a rotary simulator that was also analog and was the most-wanted model of its timethe Dynacord CLS-222. Call up some YouTube videos of thatwhich actually sound quite goodand youll see what I mean.

 

It should also be said that the Rototron definitely sounds cooler than what usually happens when you turn up the mod wheel on a general-purpose workstation or ROMplers organ patches. Wed recommend it most to an analog enthusiast who wants to add a unique modulation tool to their keyboard rig.

[Outkaster]

That article wasn't really conclusive to anything and they didn't do much comparing to the real thing. Ventilator still wins but it's only my opinion.

[ElmerJFudd]

https://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2755179/Leslie_Sims_in_a_Stomp_Box_Rev

[Stokely]

Just checked my email and there it was: "certain online retailer is running a pretty good one-day special". I've already fallen victim to this stupid daily deal once recently (G&l guitar)

 

That's too bad that it's not as good for organ apparently. If I still had my Motif as my main board I'd probably go for it. My VR700 I think would need a ventilator or equivalent to improve, and maybe not all that much considering it's for live use. It's a *really* good deal pricewise though.