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GSI Gemini Desktop/Rack


ChazKeys

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Seemed like a good time to start a post about the Gemini - not sure how many have been sold but I'm looking to get some feedback from other users.

 

I've had mine for over a month and gigged it a couple of times. I've spent about 4 hours a day playing and programming it and although it has some great emulations mine has some issues.

 

1) It's noisier than my other pro gear (Roland/Nord/Moog) - I can hear what seems like clock noise when on max volume and I get hiss as well - I've stopped using it live because it's too noisy through my DXR12 at half volume (that is very loud though). Balanced cables into balanced inputs on a mixer didn't help.

 

2) VA synth produces aliasing when PW mod is applied - I've turned PW mod off on all my patches

 

3) VA synth produces click if Input Feedback is turned up above 60 - select Preset Jumper and play single notes. As above I've turned Input Feedback off on all patches. BTW doesn't happen in mono mode

 

4) Occasional loud pedal noise on both Tine and Reed EPs even though pedal noise volume level is low - not a big problem but gives you a bit of a surprise if you are playing solo

 

5) Although you can play the organ model on 3 consecutive MIDI channels the CCs on those 3 channels are not directed/filtered to the separate manuals. CCs on channel 2 for example are received on Channel 1, 2 and 3 - so you can't use a B4D controller for example. You have to program different CCs sets for the drawbars e.g. in my case Nord E5 Ch 1 16-24, NanoKontrol Ch2 25-33

This is not how VB3 works - manuals and CCs can be on completely independent MIDI channels

 

6) No option to save custom MIDI maps and you need to be able to map CCs to other Midi channels not just the DSP channels - there are too many for one channel so you end up with duplicates.

 

 

The good stuff

 

Organ model as we know is probably the best, but I think the Tine and Reed models are also excellent. The trumpet model, although I would never use it, is eerily like er a.... trumpet!

The effects are very very good - reverb probably the stand out, but I love the Wah (Wha?) and all the vintage stuff like the phaser and the spring reverb.

The Orchestra engine is very clever - like having 9 modules in one engine. Good samples and very playable.

There are 2 MIDI ins and a USB type A - so you can connect 3 keys/controllers at once and there is still a Type B USB for connection to computer or iPad - very flexible

The synth sound is quite fat and warm and I can get P5/Juno type sounds out of it but could do with more development (bipolar controls for envelopes/LFOs, more modulation routings, more LFO parameters - like Fade in). Not a deal breaker but I was hoping I might be able to leave a synth at home.

Built like a tank - very solid

 

Some of the engines I haven't used enough to comment on but the Clav has a lot of character but not played it enough yet.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Just a thought on the noise issue, do the desktop and rack units have a three way switch for output level (-10db/+4db/High)? The Gemini expansion in my DMC-122 does and the position of this switch makes a huge difference depending on amplification.

 

Also make sure that the firmware is the latest version of 1.13 (as of 31 May 2016).

Wm. David McMahan

I Play, Therefore I Am

 

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Yes the three way switch is in the High position - I ended putting sellotape over it to make sure it stayed there when I was gigging. Guido also pointed out that you can set it to ignore Preset Volume. I've got the engines running at max volume which definitely helps reduce the noise but its still there.

 

Version 1.13 is installed but that was a fix for the noise problem caused if you used a tuning other than 440Hz.

 

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Yes the three way switch is in the High position -

This strikes me as the least likely low noise solution.

 

What are your results with the -10 & +4 output settings along with a better gain structure setup with your mixer/powered speaker setup?

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What is the price on it at this time?

 

I have thought about using it because I have a Hammond XK-2 that might work well as a controller - for some module. The Crumar would probably be the best ( if it interfaces well), as I have had well documented issues with the CV on the HX3.

 

I played and liked the Rhodes patches at NAMM on the Mojo 61.

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What is the price on it at this time?

 

I have thought about using it because I have a Hammond XK-2 that might work well as a controller - for some module.

 

In Europe 899 Euros. You need to look at the MIDI messages that the XK-2 uses.

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I'm about ready to pull the trigger on the table top so I find this review interesting. Could you expand the issue on #5? My understanding is that the drawbars default to CC 12-20 for upper and 21-29 for lower but you can adjust these to whatever you like. However, unlike the Voce V5 where 12-20 on the upper channel controls the upper drawbars and sending 12-20 on the next channel controls the lower drawbars with the gemini lower drawbars must be different CC#'s than the upper drawbars. The voce midi drawbar unit I have sends 12-20 in main drawbar mode and 21-29 in aux drawbar mode. My plan is either to flick the drawbar switch on the Voce to control upper/lower or to send 21-29 from my Kurzweil's 9 sliders. A potential 3rd option is to have my voce V5 send 12-20 and have the Voce midi drawbar unit send 21-29.

 

I also didn't understand your point of #6. I thought you could save custom CC midi mappings. Not sure what your issue is with this item. Please expand your answer.

 

The other issue I'm struggling with is C/V selection. Guido did not include a sub-menu for C/V selection. Apparently the software divides the midi data values proportionally by 6, so V1 is CC 73 (or whatever you changed the default CC to) and midi value 21, V2 is Midi value 42, V3 is 63, C1 is 84, C2 is 105 and C3 is 127. My Voce unit sends hardcoded midi data values for V1 to C3 that don't match the gemini's. So to change the C/V type would require to either send them from the Kurzweil using random buttons for the values or a midi solutions event processor to convert the voce V1 data value of 18 to be 21, its 36 value to be 42, etc. through C3. If Guido would have used a programmable sub-menu for the Midi data values then a midi solutions box wouldn't even be necessary. I might just use the Kurz to do this function.

57 Hammond B3; 69 Hammond L100P; 68 Leslie 122; Kurzweil Forte7 & PC3; M-Audio Code 61; Voce V5+; Neo Vent; EV ELX112P; GSI Gemini & Burn

Delaware Dave

Exit93band

 

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Yes the three way switch is in the High position -

This strikes me as the least likely low noise solution.

 

What are your results with the -10 & +4 output settings along with a better gain structure setup with your mixer/powered speaker setup?

 

The Gemini output simply says L-M-H so no info on whether that's in the range of -10 to +4. I just connect my keys direct to DXR12 via the on-board mixer and set the volume control to 12 o'clock and I'm good to go. But with the Gemini plugged in it sounds like someone's frying eggs! What's got me foxed is that I never had to worry about matching levels before. When the Gemini is in the H position the output volume of the Gemini is a similar level to my other gear.

 

I've actually stopped using it live but I think I'll experiment with some settings and also try it into the PA desk. It might just be a mismatch with the DXR12.

 

Cheers

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I'm about ready to pull the trigger on the table top so I find this review interesting. Could you expand the issue on #5? My understanding is that the drawbars default to CC 12-20 for upper and 21-29 for lower but you can adjust these to whatever you like. However, unlike the Voce V5 where 12-20 on the upper channel controls the upper drawbars and sending 12-20 on the next channel controls the lower drawbars with the gemini lower drawbars must be different CC#'s than the upper drawbars. The voce midi drawbar unit I have sends 12-20 in main drawbar mode and 21-29 in aux drawbar mode. My plan is either to flick the drawbar switch on the Voce to control upper/lower or to send 21-29 from my Kurzweil's 9 sliders.

 

I also didn't understand your point of #6. I thought you could save custom CC midi mappings. Not sure what your issue is with this item. Please expand your answer.

 

 

#5 Yes your Voce will do it in AUX mode - you have different CCs for each set of drawbars. So you can program the Gemini to 12-10 Upper and 21-29 Lower - no problem. I couldn't do this with the B4D as it's the same scheme as the Voce V5. The Kurzweil will work fine as well. I'm doing the same thing with the Nord E5D for the Upper Drawbars using 16-23 (Nord's scheme).

 

#6 You can't save or load different MIDI maps - the Gemini only has one MIDI map for both DSPs. It's a problem for me because I wanted to switch between different controllers with different CCs.

 

 

Hope that's clearer.

 

 

 

 

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The other issue I'm struggling with is C/V selection. Guido did not include a sub-menu for C/V selection. Apparently the software divides the midi data values proportionally by 6, so V1 is CC 73 (or whatever you changed the default CC to) and midi value 21, V2 is Midi value 42, V3 is 63, C1 is 84, C2 is 105 and C3 is 127. My Voce unit sends hardcoded midi data values for V1 to C3 that don't match the gemini's. So to change the C/V type would require to either send them from the Kurzweil using random buttons for the values or a midi solutions event processor to convert the voce V1 data value of 18 to be 21, it's 36 value to be 42, etc. through C3. If Guido would have used a programmable sub-menu for the Midi data values then a midi solutions box wouldn't even be necessary. I might just use the Kurz to do this function.

 

I haven't had a problem with the C/V mapping - both the B4d and the Nord E5D worked fine. But I use one of the knobs on the NanoKontrol mapped in my case to CC84. As you turn it clockwise you go from V1 thru to C3. So the settings I use are C1 = 10 o"clock, C2=2 o'clock and C3=5 o'clock. He used a range so V1 is around 0 - 24 etc. You could use a slider or a pot on the Kurz. And yes you could program 3 individual buttons as well.

 

Cheers

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Oh, WTF.

 

Ok so the Gemini in the tabletop has 1/4" unbalanced outs like most everything else. So assuming you've got clean power and you run to direct box for FOH like I imagine most of us would, noise issue or not?

 

Noise at the headphone jack?

 

Noise when direct to amp?

 

Is there a noise problem here or not?

 

I mean the guy is saying he leaves it bloody home because his Roland, Yamaha, Korg stuff doesn't hiss and have CPU processing noise or electrical chatter in the line.

 

re: the pulse width mod - any quirks with the synth programming are probably easily addressed with a firmware update. Send them an email so they know what to look for.

Yamaha CP88, Casio PX-560

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Oh, WTF.

 

Ok so the Gemini in the tabletop has 1/4" unbalanced outs like most everything else. So assuming you've got clean power and you run to direct box for FOH like I imagine most of us would, noise issue or not?

 

Noise at the headphone jack?

 

Noise when direct to amp?

 

Is there a noise problem here or not?

 

I mean the guy is saying he leaves it bloody home because his Roland, Yamaha, Korg stuff doesn't hiss and have CPU processing noise or electrical chatter in the line.

 

Gemini has balanced outs - but my DXR12 is unbalanced.

 

On headphones, with Gemini on full volume I can hear what sounds like digital clock and a very quiet but audible hiss.

Through my Tascam US366 at home it sounds fine but record analog inputs and look at the waveform you can see the noise floor - SPDIF silent. I never run anything on more than 3/4 volume so this is not a problem for me.

 

 

Live - I use a Nord E5D, Moog Sub 37, Roland RD64 as a controller, iPad via a USB Hub running SetList Maker and Midiflow. Audio direct into a DXR12 which has an on board mixer. When I added the Gemini to this setup both myself and the bass player noted there was a lot more noise. Everything is connected via USB to the iPad as I program a lot of splits etc. Switching the output to H on the back of the Gemini seemed to improve it as did increasing the volumes of the programs.

 

I'll do the usual thing of plugging one thing at a time and see if I can nail it.

 

I thought I'd share this problem - for over 40 years of using more keyboards than I care to remember I've not encountered anything like this.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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"..Ok so the Gemini in the tabletop has 1/4" unbalanced outs like most everything else.."

According to ths GSI website the outputs are 1/4" balanced.

 

Even better.

 

OK, Yamaha DXR12 has multiple inputs. Go balanced 1/4" TRS to balanced XLR cable and into the Yamaha on the first Mic/Line input. Throw the switch to Line Input and gently raise the volume. Can you test this and get back to us?

Yamaha CP88, Casio PX-560

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I just connect my keys direct to DXR12 via the on-board mixer and set the volume control to 12 o'clock and I'm good to go.

 

Bingo. Once again someone experiences level and noise problems trying to avoid using a mixer.

Quite arrogant attitude. Have you read point 1) in his first posting? "Balanced cables into balanced inputs on a mixer didn't help."

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"..Ok so the Gemini in the tabletop has 1/4" unbalanced outs like most everything else.."

According to ths GSI website the outputs are 1/4" balanced.

 

Even better.

 

OK, Yamaha DXR12 has multiple inputs. Go balanced 1/4" TRS to balanced XLR cable and into the Yamaha on the first Mic/Line input. Throw the switch to Line Input and gently raise the volume. Can you test this and get back to us?

 

 

Yes that's an interesting idea - forgot about the balanced XLR input. I'll try it over the weekend

 

Thanks for your input

 

 

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Maybe get a spdif break out box and use that for your analog out. A little cumbersome but if it's noiseless it might be the ticket.

 

Thanks - definitely worth a try as they are quite cheap. Lindy in the UK sell one for £20 - anyone had any experience of these basic audio DACs?

 

Lindy DAC

 

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First, use the L or M setting, not H. The input on the powered speaker you are using is more than likely looking for a -10 or +4 level (might be a selection switch or just indicators on the volume knob). Second, don't run all of the engines at full volume.

 

Please don't take this as picking on you, just trying to help. And then again, there may be a real problem here, but I don't think so. I'm fairly certain the problems you are having is a result of improper level settings. Simply setting the volume knob on you mixer at 12 o'clock, is not a 'good to go' practice. You need to match instrument output levels to mixer input levels.

Wm. David McMahan

I Play, Therefore I Am

 

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I aam using a little $6 sebrent USB soundcard the size of half a thumbdrive because of a unusably noisy analog out on a tablet computer. It sounds quite good. It's not exactly the same thing as a spdif break out but I bet the dac is the same.

FunMachine.

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First, use the L or M setting, not H. The input on the powered speaker you are using is more than likely looking for a -10 or +4 level (might be a selection switch or just indicators on the volume knob). Second, don't run all of the engines at full volume.

 

Please don't take this as picking on you, just trying to help. And then again, there may be a real problem here, but I don't think so. I'm fairly certain the problems you are having is a result of improper level settings. Simply setting the volume knob on you mixer at 12 o'clock, is not a 'good to go' practice. You need to match instrument output levels to mixer input levels.

 

Hi, Dave.

 

Can we assume you have the Gemini card in your DMC-122? Do you gig it with a powered PA speaker for monitoring? What is your opinion on the noise floor of the Gemini card compared to other instruments you've owned over the years?

 

The DXR12 has a balanced XLR input and an unbalanced 1/4" input. OP is using the unbalanced 1/4" input at the moment. He sets the Gemini volume to 12 o'clock then raises his gain at the DXR12 beginning with Infinity.png - he finds the noise unacceptable.

 

Is the L,M,H setting you are describing on the Gemini hardware? I assume this means Low, Medium, and High output? Are you suggesting he start with L?

 

Now if OP switches to use the balanced XLR input on the DXR12 he needs a 1/4"TRS to XLR cable, at which point he should throw the Mic/Line switch to Line start at Infinity.png and raise to his monitoring needs. Similarly he needs to experiment with the L,M,H setting which I believe you are saying is on the Gemini.

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/don_alano/blog/dxr12_rear.jpg

Yamaha CP88, Casio PX-560

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Hi, Dave.

 

Can we assume you have the Gemini card in your DMC-122? Do you gig it with a powered PA speaker for monitoring? What is your opinion on the noise floor of the Gemini card compared to other instruments you've owned over the years?

 

Yes I have the Gemini expansion in my DMC-122. It is no more noisy than anything else. The output level switch on the Gemini is -10/+4/High which I would think relates to L/M/H on the desktop and rack units.

 

Using the balanced inputs on the DXR-12 isn't going to make any difference as long as the levels remain unmatched. FYI- I typically use my SpaceStation/Sub combo with the DMC/Gemini unbalanced. For ease of setup most of the time I plug directly into the SS but I also have small Yamaha and Behringer mixers that I use when carrying multiple keyboards. Note: Using a mixer between the keyboard and powered speaker definitely makes a difference in sound. I also have a pair of QSC K10's that I occasionally use with the DMC/Gemini and again I have plugged directly into these as well as using a submixer. No problems with noise floor.

 

I don't know what the Gemini High level output is electronically but it is surely not good to use it going into a mixer or powered speaker. That is where the noise is coming from, that and the sound engine levels being set to maximum. (just because a knob goes to 10 doesn't mean that is where it should be set :) ) The only time I have used the High level out is when using headphones while programming setups and sounds.

Wm. David McMahan

I Play, Therefore I Am

 

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"...I don't know what the Gemini High level output is electronically..."

I believe I read on the GSI site that high is +10. I agree with Dave that the use of +10 plus the volume knob maxed is probably one of the sources of floor noise.

57 Hammond B3; 69 Hammond L100P; 68 Leslie 122; Kurzweil Forte7 & PC3; M-Audio Code 61; Voce V5+; Neo Vent; EV ELX112P; GSI Gemini & Burn

Delaware Dave

Exit93band

 

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Hi everybody - my first post here, I'm fascinated by hammond clones/modules/etc.and am in search of a new clone myself and I find crumar products very tempting...:)

 

i'm no expert but I believe that the first rule is to match levels and type of cabling...if you have +4db on one end you got to have +4db on the other end.... you say you set gemini on high (+10??) and i see your yamaha speaker line input is -10db... that explains it all, i would be surprised if no hiss was audible with this configuration!haha!

 

balanced connection must match as well...you can use an unbalanced cable to connect two balanced devices or one balanced and the other unbalanced,but you cant use a balanced cable if the output device is balanced and the amp is unbalanced because youre going to hear only one phase resulting in weird distortions....

 

when matching balanced vs unbalanced and different line levels your also matching different impedances, remember that input inpedance must be lower than output impedance

 

i'd say set the gemini on +4, use a balanced cable and connect to the +4 input of your amp, then crank the output volume if its analog

 

i have had similar issues with other keyboards in the past and the main cause was me forgetting to defeat the -10 pad button on the mixer!haha!:):)

 

 

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Welcome to the KC forums CrazyCraigKoons. And thanks for the input on the issue.

 

As you have surely discovered, there are many choices for Hammond clones and most all of them are good though each have their own strengths. After checking out several different choices, I ended up with the GSi DMC-122 with the Gemini expansion. My desire was to not only have a great sounding organ, but also have access to lots of other sounds all in one dual manual instrument. The DMC/Gemini comes out way on top for my purposes.

Wm. David McMahan

I Play, Therefore I Am

 

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I have the same desires for an organ layout and excellent clone with other synthesis engines and sample player supported with controllers like pitch bend, mod wheel, maybe after touch - the only difference is I need it in a single manual, preferably with a few more keys... 73/76.

 

Unfortunately only the pricey workstations cover all this with multiple engines - the trade-off is no waterfall key shape and faders for drawbars. The Nord Stage 2 EX Compact comes close at $3600 dollars but they swap drawbars for wonky +/- buttons. The SK-1 and Electro drop the synth engine and try to cover everything with sample playback. The SK doesn't support user samples (neither does the Gemini card) the Electro does.

Yamaha CP88, Casio PX-560

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I have the same desires for an organ layout and excellent clone with other synthesis engines and sample player supported with controllers like pitch bend, mod wheel, maybe after touch - the only difference is I need it in a single manual, preferably with a few more keys... 73/76.

 

I hear'ya on the 73/76 note (76 being my favorite if less than 88). For many years I would never go to a gig without some form of an 88 note keyboard. I had considered another dual manual controller before deciding on the DMC-122. It had 61 on top and 76 on the bottom. But the case was particle board so it was heavy and no internal sounds. If I'm doing a gig where piano will be the focus, I'll still take an 88 note weighted keyboard, but for most of my gigs I just take the DMC and feel perfectly comfortable.

Wm. David McMahan

I Play, Therefore I Am

 

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