How much stage volume do we need?

[rockinredeye]

Seeing a bass amp double stack on a catalog website prompts me to ask: How much stage volume do we need anyway? In my band of the last 21 years, we all wear in-ears, mic the drums and guitar amps, and the bass and I are direct through the PA, which is two Peavey towers of 2-15" and a horn each, wattage I don't remember, lots. Plenty loud for the 100-200 seat venues we play. Our other gigs seem to be festivals and the state fair which have huge PAs of their own. So, what venues call for all this extreme stage volume? Self-powered monitors are popular here, but it seems to me (here we go) that I couldn't discern what was going on if I brought two for my sound alone. Is everybody's guitarist a 140 db stage hog? Are all the drummers playing with baseball bats? And singing: with that much stage volume, how can you tell if you're singing on pitch? In-ears have spoiled me.

[ElmerJFudd]

Nothing worse than doing a show and not being able to discern sh*t even though the volume is massively loud.

 

The biggest issues as I see them are....

 

The inherent volume of acoustic drums and the need to base all other monitoring from that starting point.

 

Proximity and distance between players and monitors.

 

I personally don't care for monitoring vocals and keys through the PA mains. There's an awful feeling of distance between your keyboard action and the sound. Strange timing and latency issues ensue. There has to be stage monitors in the PA system for vocals. And for keys, I much prefer to bring my own monitor and control its level myself. I can't count on someone else to decide what's clear enough for me and the vocals don't need to compete with the keys for the singers to sing in tune with the band and one another.

 

With that said, I think it's very difficult for drummers to hear the band. I think they often are singing the song to themselves and just keeping time assuming all are following. Ideally, I try and have the band's amps/monitors set just a little behind the drums so they can hear what the heck is going on as well.

 

Small combo gigs are the best, where everyone is close together using their own amps/monitors and handle leveling themselves. Just vocals in the PA and a wedge or two for all to hear them as well.

 

re: In Ear Monitors. I haven't gotten into that yet, but something tells me they are probably more damaging to hearing. The temptation to have them up to high all night is there, no? And when singing, I need to be able to hear a bit of myself locally, so I am sure I would tear one of them out.

[The Real MC]

Some folks progressed to in-ears/amp modelers/electronic drums, others prefer old school gear on stage.

 

I don't have in-ears but my stage monitor system is modular; I can go from a single Bose 802 to a biamped stereo system with Bose 2x802 and 302 sub on each side. So I am ready for anything from an intimate coffee house gigs to bands with a guitar player going full bore through a Marshall full stack (and yes the Bose can compete volume-wise). I can agree that a Marshall does have a certain desirable tone past a certain volume threshold, but they are just overkill for most venues except the large ones in metropolitan areas.

 

Frankly I won't join a band with a loud players. I hate volume wars and getting the vocals heard can be an exercise in futility.

[rockinredeye]

To clarify: each of us has a 16 channel mixer (a Behringer system). FOH is separately mixed by that wascally sound guy Bob. So, no weirdness. On discerning: at one show before in-ears, for some reason our volume was so out of hand that I couldn't tell what key we were in. I knew I was playing the right notes because I could see my hands but it sounded wrong! As if I had accidentally hit a transpose button. And thank goodness our drummer has a light touch and in-ears of his own.

[ElmerJFudd]

So what are you noticing about your ears now, post IEMs? Do you still come home with ringing in the ears? Does it go away? How long does it last, or have your ears been ringing for years now as a band player?

[Theo Verelst]

It's insane that so much "technical improvement" isn't making for the right sound and normal ample, non-hurting non-dangerous volume for cheap. But unfortunately, both digital and speaker technology aren't where they should be yet, even though some people "think" things perfect! So maybe some bass players think: I need these double stacks to be heard properly, or something..

 

T.

[timwat]

There's a bunch of factors that contribute.

 

rockinredeye is a perm member in the same band for 21 years and they all committed to IEMs. That's not a typical situation for most forum users.

 

To Theo's point, yes, the technical solutions exist to provide safe and adequate stage volume at reasonable price points - and have for a long time. Lots of venues provide them.

 

But a lot of venues still don't (and don't see the point of investing either). And a lot of us play in lots of different situations - many great, and a few not so great.

 

A lot of times the culprit is one muso (drummer? guitar player?) who never got the memo about volume...and I still have to be able to hear myself.

 

So I always pack a powered monitor. And my IEMs. And my custom-molded ear plugs. Pick the appropriate tools for the night's work.

 

Like everything else in life, a question of A) What is ideal vs. B) What we have in hand.

 

 

 

[Tusker]

We get to choose who we hang with, to some degree. I will not hang out with musicians who haven't learned to listen.

 

If you are with them in regular monitor situations the stage volumes are invariably too loud for the sound guy to be effective. If you are with them in an IEM situation, in my experience they tend to make a narcissistic mix for themselves, so you are still not getting a musical connection with them.

 

Pick your musical mates carefully first. Then, find the technical solution you need.

[Doerfler]

The inherent volume of acoustic drums and the need to base all other monitoring from that starting point.

This.

 

I sold a vintage Gretsch kit and replaced it with a Roland V Drum kit just to have lower volume. I can't stand having an electronic drum kit, but I can keep levels reasonable. Need to keep what hearing I have left intact.

[DulceLabs.com]

Worst time I ever had was a production of JC Superstar. Drummer had an electric set and was very contentious about volume. The two guitar players, however, decided to have a pissing contest and it was the singers who lost. They had to crank the body mics (lavs) so much that feedback was happening... a lot. Director threw a hissy fit and blamed the sound techs, who in turn blamed the guitarists who couldn't understand what the issue was. Good times.

[Michael Wright]

[Tom Williams]

In the past (90's, 00's) I mostly preserved my hearing through judicious use of low-volume near field monitors.

 

More recently, the church band has spoiled me with Bose IEMs and Behringer individual monitor mixers. A wonderful choice if one can afford it.

[Mr. Nightime]

At my church we recently made a change in the monitor situation, and it has worked really well. The drums are a Roland Electronic kit, and has been for a while. I've used a Mackie SRM 150 of my own for a while, and one of the guys that runs sound, (who I had been in a band with many years ago), bought a few more for the drums, 2nd keys, acoustic piano, and acoustic guitar. The bass and electric guitar both use a little Hartke, I think is the A35. In all instances the individual instruments are running through one channel of the monitor, and a monitor mix from the board into the other channel. This way each person can get the balance they want. Since these are close to the player, the volume level stays very manageable.

 

They have Behringer system that will, when completely integrated, allow each one of us to have our own monitor mix, that we can fully control from an app on our phones.

 

Both main sound men are quality player themselves, one a sax player, and the other a piano player, so they try to keep us as happy as possible.

 

[OB Dave]

My little 40 watt Leslie should be enough for any gig, and it grieves me greatly when it isn't.

[Stokely]

So what are you noticing about your ears now, post IEMs? Do you still come home with ringing in the ears? Does it go away? How long does it last, or have your ears been ringing for years now as a band player?

 

This is the best thing about my IEMs: I come home with no ringing, and I'm actually able to sleep. We play on small stages mostly and between cymbals 2 feet from me and amps and monitor sound bouncing around the stage it was just a giant wall of sound. We have an acoustic drummer so there's only so low you can go.

 

A close second is that I hear what I'm playing and singing way more clearly. Like orders of magnitude.

 

Third would be not having to lug a powered speaker for an "amp"...I was doing this for a while for the band's benefit (not everyone has IEMs) but we upgraded our stage monitors and now keys just go in the monitor mixes.

 

Fourth: not having to try to position stage monitors so that I can hear them. You know the song and dance, our keyboards tend to block the best spot for monitors half the time.

 

As it turns out, we have been dropping our stage volume more with our new drummer--he's good enough to maintain grooves and feel while playing quieter, something many drummers are unable and/or unwilling to do. This goes hand in hand with some of the nicer places we play now, which want overall volume to be lower (loud stage makes it harder to do a quiet FOH mix).

 

As a casual musician, I'll never go back to stage monitors. IEMs have literally changed my life. If I was looking for a band and they said "no" to IEMs, it's a deal-breaker no matter how much of a good match it was otherwise....

[rockinredeye]

My tinntitus is so old that I've forgotten when it started. Before the band I'm sure. Remember the high pitch from old color TVs? I listened to Hendrix in the sixties on headphones at high volume. Parents never knew.

 

Anyway, ringing after playing is not-any-worse-than-before-playing on any given night. The difference is since the IEMs plug my ears and (manufacture's claim) reduce volume by 25db, I can dial in as much or as little of each instrument and voice as I want. I can dial in overall volume. The dry sound and total lack of room ambience took some getting used to. On the other hand, we all hear exactly what each other is playing. So clean now. Oh, and we've gone so far as to turn the guitar amps sideways so they don't project off the stage. The audience hears almost exclusively our mixed sound from the PA. I've come to the conclusion that the old way we used to play was just a big mess of sound from onstage amps, monitors and PA bouncing around the room. All those direct and reflected sounds were confusing to my ears sometimes. Other times it just sounded hairy.

 

My ears tested well to 20KHz when I was in high school. So, plug your ears now. Monitors or just plugs, do it. If your ringing stops after a time, you have some hearing to save. I'm afraid my ears are no better than a cassette tape now.

[CowboyNQ]

Agree that loud on-stage sound is completely unnecessary. Makes it very difficult to get a good FOH mix too. One of my bands is 11-piece. If we didn't keep volume down to a dull roar we'd end up with a hot mess on stage where no one could hear anything.

 

A couple of guitarists I play with also turn amps sideways on stage to prevent spillage out front, just like rockinredeye's example.

 

Like ElmerJFudd, I like to bring my own monitor, much better to control my own volume without having to rely on a third party to tweak things to your satisfaction. I try to face it away from the rest of the band and audience where possible.

 

Lastly and slightly OT, sometimes I think that certain soundies have industrial deafness - don't know if any of you have experienced this, but I often find myself playing shows where the FOH is uncomfortably loud.

[area51recording]

I've walked away from bands that had drummers that hit like a gorilla, or meathead geetar players who had to have 140db on stage to get "my sound" It just isn't worth sacrificing my hearing to put up with that....

[harmonizer]

Sometimes it is the drum kit equipment that makes the volume too loud - some of these snares are designed to be deafening. We just got a new drummer in our covers band, and the first 6 weeks he was playing with this little kit that looked pretty cheap (and was not loud), and we were in heaven. Then he brought in his newer kit, which looks great, but plays much louder. Too loud. I'm trying to get him to bring his old ugly kit back. He is a good drummer - he is not a mindless head-beater. So the gear can make a big difference. We have explained that for gigs we always mic the kit with overhead, so his kit does not have to be loud.

[ShadowMan]

I run thru a small mixer and send a stereo signal to stage amplification (and the FOH too, if a larger venue) - and run a separate mono monitor feed to a 10" powered wedge at my feet. I find having an amp behind me just doesn't provide me with enough monitoring.

 

If I do the two keyboard set up in an "L" configuration, I have one wedge on my left and a second one on my right. I can ride gain on these without impacting my FOH feed.

 

 

[hardware]

Bad habits are created by not having a PA.

Besides a good FOH tells the loudest player he wont be in the mix unless he drops his stage volume.

I prefer levels to match the drummer.

Luckily I work with seasoned cats.

I have no patience with guys playing too loud.

How can you possibly gel when you smell..

[J_tour]

Agree that loud on-stage sound is completely unnecessary. Makes it very difficult to get a good FOH mix too. One of my bands is 11-piece. If we didn't keep volume down to a dull roar we'd end up with a hot mess on stage where no one could hear anything.

 

A couple of guitarists I play with also turn amps sideways on stage to prevent spillage out front, just like rockinredeye's example.

 

Like ElmerJFudd, I like to bring my own monitor, much better to control my own volume without having to rely on a third party to tweak things to your satisfaction. I try to face it away from the rest of the band and audience where possible.

 

Lastly and slightly OT, sometimes I think that certain soundies have industrial deafness - don't know if any of you have experienced this, but I often find myself playing shows where the FOH is uncomfortably loud.

 

QFT. I haven't played huge (Trump-speech yuuuuuuge!) venues, but I never had a problem hearing the drums and, to a lesser extent, the bass. I just use my JBL Eon as my personal monitor+everyone else can hear it, and trust the sound guy/gal to make it sound good,

 

Visual cues and some muddy picture of what's going on seems to be fine to me.

 

And then there's occasionally some sound "person" who's like, 'we're not giving you any sends." Meh, makes my life easier. I only got two ear anyway, so I'll just say it's good enough, so long as I can hear something.

[I-missRichardTee]

Anecdote: 3 nights ago I was talking back stage to John B Williams, the bass player with original Arsenio show. He said in earlier times he was right in the midst of the NYC jazz scene , living a stones throw from people like Sonny Rollins.. and he knew Miles and like that.. so he has nice stories.

He mentioned how when on a gig and he is doing what we do, dialing in your sound and volume.. how it is nice to not be too loud - but he added when it's his time to solo, and the sound man turns him up in the House! How that sucks.

He is a very non judgmental man of much experience.

 

Last night I was reminded of an old belief that we CAN play in such a way as to hear one another in a nice balance

 

It takes experience and maturity but keep striving to get that nice balance.. it opens up a whole new world..

 

[allan_evett]

Returning to this topic. How do the rest of you deal with an established, decent-paying gig on which the stage volume is extreme, yet the band leaders (lead vocalist/percussion, and lead vocalist/bassist) still don't get it - even after several conversations?

I run a Line-6 L2t cabinet for personal monitoring, also taking an aux send from the "FOH" board (mixed by the bass player, from the stage). Last night I rode the L2t's channel levels between 7 and 10 , the main gain at about 7. At the end of the night, when starting teardown, I accidentally hit a key on my MODX and the level was piercing - almost making me jump. Even with some EQ adjustments (on the L2t keyboard channel and from the band aux feed - which the drummer manages, via iPad) I could barely hear my keys and vocals. The bassist uses IEMs, and still insists on cranking his Mesa/Boogie 410 head and cabinet. Then the drummer has to play louder, to match; then guitar and keys follow... I tried using my IEMs, but they were no help. Yeah, a little more clarity; but there was no way to get over the stage level. I've checked with various venue staff members, and the FOH levels are loud, but fine for the patrons and management. The problem is that band creates a stage volume equal, at least, to that.

While there are perhaps 2-3 exceptions, the band dynamic consists of two levels: loud, and between songs. To his credit, the drummer appreciates my pain, and has some of his own about the situation. Helps that he's been a fellow jobber and jazz player over his career.

 

After several months of gigging with these guys, I'm about ready to do something else. They are a long-established act in the region, so my input appears to be in the minority, and inconsequential. This might just stay a rant posting; if so, thanks for listening. But if anyone has another way of looking at this, feel free to jump in.

[Doerfler]

the band dynamic consists of two levels: loud, and between songs.

 

the more things change...

 

I hear you Alan, except I really don't

Get out while you can.

[Bobby Simons]

What he said.

[Delaware Dave]

We did a show 2 weeks ago w/ built-in house sound. After the 2nd set the soundman came up and told me that the only thing still going through the mains were the vocals and the keys. He thanked me for keeping my level down and asked me to talk to the rest of the band about turning down. I told him that I have been having that talk w/ them for 15 years and that he should take a shot at it...

[Stokely]

We are semi-pro "weekend warriors" and after 5 years together (with 3 different drummers) our stage volume is now only acoustic drums (and not that loud with our current drummer). One wedge for the bass player, who needs to have his ears free as he runs out front on a wireless to check the FOH mix (we run sound from the stage). The other four of us use in-ears, so no need for any stage volume.

 

I would have quit years ago if I had to subject myself to loud stages (and sleepless nights with ringing ears).

 

We have got a few gigs after venues ditched bands that refused to turn down. Turning down out front starts with stage volume. Their loss.

 

If we don't run the PA, we resort to wedges but those are typically outdoor gigs that don't have nasty reflected sound.

[MAJUSCULE]

the FOH levels are loud, but fine for the patrons and management.

 

Until this changes,

 

My sympathies to you.

 

I mean, if the drummer thinks the band is loud... right? Seriously though, how you turning up your amp when you wear IEMs...

[MotiDave]

If you like the band and it gets good gigs and the only issue is stage volume, cant you just wear some high quality ear plugsdesigned for just this situation and crank yourself to match your over-enthusiastic band mates?