Kurzweil's KB3 engine is quite good....

[Sundown]

Hey all,

 

When I first got my used PC361, I didn't think KB3 was all that great, but I've come to really enjoy it. From a playability perspective, it's got a lot to offer, and I like the sound of the Leslie. I'm sure there are Clonewheels that are far better, but as an add-on, it leaves little to be desired.

 

A lot of it is also taste. The organ sounds that I like (16', 5-1/3', and 8' mostly pulled out, with the upper drawbars minimized), tend to sound really good. I added a Boss expression pedal a few months ago, and that definitely adds to the playability factor as well.

 

Fun stuff...

[rickzjamm]

The KB3 was the deciding factor for me in choosing the Forte over several other top boards, did extensive research & it's the best organ sim on a DP IMHO. All the sounds are excellent but the KB3 is spit spot on!! I run it through a Vent II for extra oomph but it does just fine without it.

[ElmerJFudd]

It is good, it just gets a bad rap here because, as best described by Delaware Dave,

 

"I've spent hundreds of hours tweaking the KB3 and new double leslie on the PC3 series. From a rompler point of view it is pretty good, but it doesn't compare favorably to a dedicated clonewheel. The chorus/vibrato is not authentic sounding and cannot be improved from a user point of view. It also clashes with the internal leslie. The leslies needs to be synced in order to sound decent. The percussion is routed through the chorus/vibrato rather than around the chorus/vibrato, like it is on a real hammond. The base tone of the organ itself has a gritty tone, which is acceptable for rock but too dirty for jazz. The tone is also very bright, akin too an early 70's model rather than the mellow mid 50's hammond. Also KB3 only supports one manual. If you want to split the manual with one KB3 on the top and a 2nd KB3 on the bottom, this is not possible. The 2nd KB3 organ has to be created using a VAST B3 organ as the PC3 doesn't currently support two KB3's running at the same time. Also, the double leslie uses virtually all of the effects resources, so if you wanted to combine a KB3 with a piano there wouldn't be enough resources to support any effects for the piano. At the end of the day I use a Voce V5+ as the organ with a Ventilator. It sounds way better than the KB3 and the double leslie and uses no effects resources. I occasionally run the KB3 through the Ventilator and will use the KB3/double leslie when practicing. It's not that bad it is just that the Voce/Vent combo is better. Next would be the KB3/Vent combo and finally the KB3/double leslie. I'm a hammond freak and am very picky about the sound of the hammond/leslie."

 

[rickzjamm]

 

At the end of the day it's all about compromise. I agree with Delaware Dave, for the purist there are better dedicated clonewheels out there to be sure, but for me the Forte is an all in gig board. I've owned many DP's, clone wheels & synths over the years... sadly no "one magical board" does it all, but some come very very close indeed.

[ElmerJFudd]

I believe that's why Dave gigs the Kurzweil. It does a lot more than organ. Same reason a lot of guys have jumped on the Kronos. The CX-3 is good enough and they need the one board to do it all. Other options are the the Stage 2 EX... VR-09, although I feel it's a shadow of the VR-700/760. SK-1 and Electro, although they try to cover everything other than organ with a basic sample player. Jupiter-80 covers a lot, but real time control of the organ is not very good. Maybe GSi will release a single manual DMC-122 to host its Gemini card which would be quite nice - especially for organ, but not quite a Forte/PC3K or a Kronos.

[Moonglow]

It has a pretty darn thick tone, which is what I like best about it. It has its own distinct sound, IMO...it sounds like a "Kurzweil organ"...which is not necessarily a bad thing (seems the Nord organs have been accused of this, as well). Don't care much for the KB3 sim, although the double Leslie isn't bad. I bet the KB3 organs would sound great through a Vent.

[Sundown]

I don't like the Hammond vibrato, so some of Dave's observations wouldn't pertain to my needs. I like the way the Leslie ramps up and down, and for the registrations I like, it sounds pretty good and organic.

[Hoochie]

Forte here with a mini vent. I also have a stage 2 which is no slouch.

The forte is what I use. It has a more distinct vibe to me.

It's a little easy to get shrill on the top but once you adjust its fine.

It cuts through nicely.

 

John

[rockinredeye]

The KB3 was a major reason for choosing the PC3 seven years ago. There are three different tonewheel types to choose from, not all are dirty. The double Leslie's are a great improvement over the original singles, although I use them on some songs. They all have just a tiny bit too much Doppler warble, but I have to concentrate to hear it and when playing, I just enjoy the organ. We have played Soul Sacrifice for years and it kills every time. I'm convinced it wouldn't if the organ was any less exciting. Yes I love it but have had a long time to get used to registrations and organ/Leslie combinations. Also the horns, strings, EPs, APs, synth sounds, percussion sounds. Yeah.

[nickd]

SP4-7 owner here (and I used to have a PC361), and KB3 is a definite plus in this board.

 

The SP4-7 doesn't have the double Leslies from the PC3, but still does some very usable organ sounds. I used it on a piano-centric gig yesterday for a few songs and it sounded great.

[DaBous]

I can see why some folks like KB3 - has it's own character and sounds ok in the mix.

 

I never warmed up to it personally. I found my B3 nirvana in the HX3 module. Forte has excellent and flexible midi controller capabilities so mapping to the HX3 was easy.

 

It is so seamless I forget it is an external module.

[Delaware Dave]

I gigged with one of my 'alternate' bands Saturday at a local small club. I played two sets with the Voce/Vent and decided in the 3rd set to change up and went with the program 49 and program 50 (mostly 50, perfect strangers). They are certainly giggable programs. They are a little shrill; I changed the organ wheel map to mellow and cranked down the upper tone wheel adjustment and got an acceptable organ. Other gigs I've used the KB3 with a Vent and found this acceptable as well. KB3 doesn't have the 'balls' that the Voce has but certainly is usable. The rest of the PC3 I really like (even the acoustic pianos aren't as bad as people make them out to be). The PC3 can definitely be an all-in-one keyboard. I've even developed a dual manual and a split manual organ w/ leslie (the other organ is a VAST organ). The only issue with the VAST organ is that the notes aren't phased locked. I use the VAST organ on the bottom manual so that it is less noticeable. I also was able to create independent drawbar control for upper and lower using one set of drawbars (like the XK1c/SK1/SK2).

[Stokely]

It's hard for me to complain about the pc361. It does just about everything I could need, and the only other boards that might do the same are the Kronos and Stage 2...and they are a lot more money (I paid 875 with a case used for my pc361).

 

I use it with a Roland VR-700 when I play two keyboards, and the pc361 when I only need one for little one-set gigs or quick setup gigs. I love playing the VR-700 but I'm pretty underwhelmed with the non-organ sounds on it...and it's pretty big and heavy. I might look to replace it with an electro or maybe sk-1 down the road. I'd actually consider replacing both with a used Stage 2--but just thinking of selling a keyboard, let alone two, on Craigslist is a horrible thought. Ugh.

 

Anyway, don't forget the KB3 and leslie also gives you tons of parameters to mess with. In particular I changed some double-leslie settings to make it work better in mono...I think I got the info on this forum

[Rusty Mike]

I have spent a fair amount of time messing with the KB3 as well, but not nearly to the extent that DD has. I agree completely with Dave's assessment.

 

Don't get me wrong, the PC3 is a great instrument, and KB3 is one of the best emulations in a workstation. The marketing and programming for the instrument has a clear direction, however. It's very strong for theatre, pop/rock and orchestral. KB3 works better in those contexts. For straight ahead jazz, however, the shortcomings (C/V most significantly) are rather exposed.

 

I have also found some issues with the tone wheel engine itself, as well as a decent bug in the system. Setting the number of tone wheels to 91 and going through each drawbar, I found that the fold back doesn't really match the original. It's been a while since I last did this, so I don't have the exact details. The fold back matches the original better when you set the number of tone wheels to 86. That, however, reveals a significant bug in the Kurzweil OS where you cannot edit any other parameter in real time when the number of tone wheels is set to anything other than 91.

 

Every once in a while I will return to KB3 to mess with it just a bit more, and end up not really progressing. I ultimately conclude that it's not worth the effort. My Nord E4D sounds more authentic (to me - I know there's not a lot of love here for the Nord engine), is easier to mess with on the fly, and it's less than half the weight.

 

I'm not saying KB3 doesn't work; it just doesn't work for me. It would be nice to see the CV improved, and other architectural changes like Dave points out. I would really like to see the engine bug addressed, but I doubt highly that there will be any more OS updates to the PC3.

[Tom Williams]

I still wonder why Kurzweil can't make the KB3 engine so it can be tapped by two different programs in a setup. I assume that's what a real Hammond does.

 

 

[Josh Paxton]

I've developed a benchmark for workstation organ patches/engines that I call the "AWYWI Test." It consists of one question: is it a good enough organ sound to get you through a rendition of "Any Way You Want It" in a bar band?

 

KB3 absolutely meets that criteria. And not all workstation organs do; there are plenty that are so painfully cheesy I couldn't abide them, even for a couple cover songs for drunk tourists. Would I use KB3 for a jazz organ gig? Of course not but there's no reason I'd use a Kurz, or any workstation, for a gig like that anyway. But for a gig where the organ isn't at the forefront, and I'm looking for a single-board solution that covers all the requirements, KB3 fits the bill just fine. Do I realize, in the moment, that it's not the best organ emulation I have available? Sure. Does that warrant schlepping an entire extra board? Hell no!

 

So, my suggested slogan:

 

"KB3: When you don't wanna bring a whole extra board just for organ, it's good enough!"

[Delaware Dave]

Rusty, try 79 tonewheels rather than 91. Through some reading (I wish I could remember where) I think I concluded that the additional 12 tonewheels would be used for the footpedals that would never get used for KB3 (since it only supports one manual to begin with). So I have been using 79 tonewheels and it may have addressed the incorrect foldback issue. I also moved the tonewheel map to 'mellow' and this reduced 'some' of the shrillness. I also reduced to -9 (?) the upper tonewheel adjustment as well which took more shrillness out of the high end. The other funky thing I found was the inconsistency in the percussion lights. With most clones four lights 'on' represents all four tabs forward, lights off represents percussion tabs back. With Kurz the four percussion buttons are represented by red and green lights, red presumably meaning a forward tab and green presumably meaning back tab (rather than lights on and lights off); however I found many inconsistencies in programs where 4 red lights do not represent on, soft, fast, 3rd (i.e. 4 tabs forward), the lights are some combination that is illogical and inconsistent to the relationship of the tab position. One for sure is the percussion volume level (soft vs. normal) tab. Red means normal rather than soft percussion level. I readjusted all of the programs that I use so that red is equivalent to a forward tab and green is equivalent to a tab that is back. So I went into the PERC2 page and flipped the normal and soft levels around so that when a red light is on I always get a corresponding 'forward' tab like on a real hammond rather than some weird combination that I have to guess at its meaning.

 

Another thing is setting the leslie to 0 (stop). The leslie actually reacts as if it is set to 1 or 2 and drifts very slowly. You never actual can achieve a full stop. Fortunately I am not a fan of stop so I don't use stop but for people who want to emulate a single speed leslie '0' slow speed doesn't actually provide stop.

[Rusty Mike]

Thanks for the tips, Dave. You've really dug into this thing deep. I'll definitely give those parameters a shot. You don't get the programming issue when set to 79 tone wheels?

 

I forgot about the lack of brake on the rotary. Very important for me. I like playing on stop with C2 or C3 and the perc on soft/fast/third. Not a good sound on the KB3.

 

I've been tempted to buy a mini-Vent and dedicate it to the extra outputs on the PC3. That way I can bypass the rotors on the PC3 (have to keep the cabinet though for the C/V, arg) and give back all those effects units.

 

- or, I'll just keep playing the Nord.

[Delaware Dave]

Your best bet is probably to continue to use the Nord. One of the things I have noticed (but can't explain) is that the C/V is not as bad sounding (doesn't clash as much) when I use the Vent or my Motion Sound Pro3T rather than the internal leslie.

 

I seem to be able to edit parameters using the 79 tonewheel setting. I'm not sure what is going on w/ your synth. Worse case scenario would be to set it at 91, then edit your parameters, save, then set it to 79 and resave.

[rickzjamm]

Awesome tips DD. I've implemented similar settings for the KB3 & it sounds great, I run it through the NVII for more "authentic" demanding material. I have a NE4 that I use for second tier approaches & it's very cool... but with a bad back I've consolidated & the Forte just wins all all counts.

Compromise isn't always a bad thing. ;-)

[Theo Verelst]

I suspect the KB3 could be a justified subject for a (technical scientific) PhD of sorts, to include all the sides to it, but on the other hand it usually is so spoiled by whatever it is that rules in the Kurzweil sound path(s) that for me the ROM sounds are usually unbearable. Shrill, no warmth, horrible signal elements that ask attention for God knows what, strange drawbar to sound connection, strange overall sound character on good monitoring. It seems however that it is probably going to helo you scream over all other players on top of the available keyboard power, including using singer's mics and the existing feedback for a little (ugly) boost, and not discriminating more (also not less) than the absolute needed blare control, so that you can make yourself heard, and it does resemble an organ.

 

T.

[Delaware Dave]

I suspect the KB3 could be a justified subject for a (technical scientific) PhD of sorts, to include all the sides to it, but on the other hand it usually is so spoiled by whatever it is that rules in the Kurzweil sound path(s) that for me the ROM sounds are usually unbearable. Shrill, no warmth, horrible signal elements that ask attention for God knows what, strange drawbar to sound connection, strange overall sound character on good monitoring. It seems however that it is probably going to helo you scream over all other players on top of the available keyboard power, including using singer's mics and the existing feedback for a little (ugly) boost, and not discriminating more (also not less) than the absolute needed blare control, so that you can make yourself heard, and it does resemble an organ.

 

T.

Huh?

[Stokely]

The only thing I got out of that was "Rom sounds" and that they are not good...not sure KB3 uses Rom as in the usual way of saying "samples in Rom". (honestly I have no clue how KB3 works, just that it is separate in some way from the main set of sounds.)

 

[Delaware Dave]

The only thing I got out of it was blood shot eyes.....

[Tom Williams]

Once I got to the meat of the message, I found we were in agreement.

I suspect the KB3 could be a justified subject for a (technical scientific) PhD of sorts, to include all the sides to it, but on the other hand it usually is so spoiled by whatever it is that rules in the Kurzweil sound path(s) that for me the ROM sounds are usually unbearable.

As for me, KB3 on both K2600 and PC3 is the most realistic thing I've owned yet -- and that includes two low-end Voces and a Hammond Spinet. I'm grateful to have it, flaws included. If the sound is too dark, I either edit the "EQ" or move a drawbar.

 

BTW, y'all do understand that the KB3 Leslie can run fast, slow, and brake, right?

[rockinredeye]

The KB3 is on its own separate processor called a MARA processor, all other sounds come from a second processor. Someone correct me, but, it's an old design that only accepts one MIDI channel at a time and will never be able to work with two manuals. Kurzweil would have to add a third chip for a second manual. Too expensive. Seems to work best for me if I instantiate a crestolled framistan in the last layer before output.

[Delaware Dave]

Need a dual manual organ for your PC3?

 

click here

[Theo Verelst]

Them organ tones most people like have signal properties that do not normally stand to attention. Those components can be created with the KB3, but the Rom sounds do them, I MO wrong. Also, the PC3 can, at least to some extend, deal with it's own DAC errors, the ones I'm sure most people often perceive, probably without knowing. The given sounds do this only in a very limited way.

 

Then there's the structure of the digital components like how the CV is an external effect, and the uhm, maybe not so luminous idea of cascading Leslie's. ..

 

T.

[Delaware Dave]

Stokely, please translate the new message from Theo ....... you appear to be good at it.

[Al Coda]

The KB3 is on its own separate processor called a MARA processor, all other sounds come from a second processor.

 

At least that´s not how it works in a PC3 series machine.

In a PC3 there are 2 MARA chips doing everything.

In the Forte you get already 3 chips and KB3 is still a one-manual/one set of drawbars organ. But even KB3 has it´s own full polyphony now in a Forte, only 2 of the MARAs do the sound- and polyphony-work while the 3rd one is dedicated to the FX.

 

AFAIK, the Forte SE introduces a single new DSP chip.

It shall be more powerfull than a single MARA chip.

 

Kurzweil would have to add a third chip for a second manual.

 

No, see above,- 3 DSPs are already in the FORTE.

 

It seems to be a matter of the basic concept/design which started w/ the K-2500/2600 model machines and improved somewhat in the PC3.

 

Can be they have to do a redesign and decide for more DSP horsepower in addition.

 

With the available DSP horsepower of a PC3 and FORTE, it´s obviously not possible creating 2 ZONEs of KB3 for upper and lower manual AND have only ONE audio path running into a single modelled preamp, C/V, cab-sim and rotor (Leslie).

And there´s still the percussion running thru C/V which drives me nuts most.

 

Anyway, w/ some tweaks I get very usable organ sounds out of my PC361, good enough for most band situations.

 

A dedicated 2 manual clone is better for sure,- but I don´t need that very often.

 

A.C.