buh-bye aftertouch

[richforman]

I'm in a kind of similar situation as you zephonic, have known for a while that my Fantom X7 is getting pretty long in the tooth, but I have just stubbornly refused to retire it because, for some of the same reasons you cite, I haven't been able to find a keyboard that replicates its sort of jack-of-all-trades feature set including 76 keys, light carrying weight, aftertouch, thousands of easily tweakable sounds and thousands more on cards easy, flexible multi-timbral/workstation functionality, easy custom sampling, I like that I can store each band project's worth of splits and samples on a separate 2gb smartcard, etc. Other boards do other things better and the Fantom is probably not the "best" at any one individual sound category, but it's just so damn usable. (Still I have pet peeves with it too. One thing I haven't been able to find a way to do is to set a part in a Performance to trigger internal sounds but not transmit over MIDI at all; another is set a velocity range for a part.)

[zephonic]

1) Yes, the Jupiter-50 has registrations, but IMHO they're not the most convenient to use. They're accessed through four buttons, basically, requiring multiple button-presses to get to the desired bank and specific registration stored in that bank. I guess if you are playing a live show, and have all of these things worked out, and memorized, then you could use them effectively, and set up to minimize button-presses.

 

2) The Jupiter-50 is difficult to compare to a typical 16-part multi-timbral workstation. Yes, you can have four sounds in an "Upper Part", but these are four "tones" (I think they're called) and probably shouldn't be compared exactly to typical presets on a workstation.

 

3) You are correct about the inability to add MFX to the upper and lower parts, and IMHO this is a significant shortcoming. For example, you can assign a lead synth sound to the upper part, and put reverb on it, but not delay. Frustrating.

 

4) You can define split points within a registration for the lower, upper, and solo parts. I believe you can also allow them to overlap. And in an "upper" part, which contains four tones, you can define the key ranges for each of the tones.

 

Yes, after reading the manual some more, Im not sure its limitations make it a suitable instrument for me. It seems that the FA-06 is a more flexible (and traditional) layout, but if the keyboard feels crappy, it is a dealbreaker.

 

The Liveset" is effectively what they call a Patch on the Fantom, no idea why they changed the name.

 

Requiring multiple presses to get to a certain registration is a turnoff. They did the same with LiveSetting mode on the Fantom.

 

Right now Im thinking the JP-50 is out. If the JP-80s lower part is as flexible as the upper part, that may be a better fit, but it would really stretch the budget at this time.

 

Id love to stay with Roland, it would be weird to be without one, but it doesnt look like they have something that fits my needs right now.

 

Thanks for expounding on this in great detail, much appreciated! And your vids sound great, too.

 

 

I'm in a kind of similar situation as you zephonic, have known for a while that my Fantom X7 is getting pretty long in the tooth, but I have just stubbornly refused to retire it because, for some of the same reasons you cite, I haven't been able to find a keyboard that replicates its sort of jack-of-all-trades feature set including 76 keys, light carrying weight, aftertouch, thousands of easily tweakable sounds and thousands more on cards easy, flexible multi-timbral/workstation functionality, easy custom sampling, I like that I can store each band project's worth of splits and samples on a separate 2gb smartcard, etc. Other boards do other things better and the Fantom is probably not the "best" at any one individual sound category, but it's just so damn usable. (Still I have pet peeves with it too. One thing I haven't been able to find a way to do is to set a part in a Performance to trigger internal sounds but not transmit over MIDI at all; another is set a velocity range for a part.)

 

 

Yup, you just summarized my feelings about it all pretty accurately. The velocity per part thing in Performance mode is definitely a cumbersome omission.

 

The closest thing to a Fantom X7 currently available is the Motif XF7. I cant really afford one right now, even at blowout prices, but maybe I should just take the hit and eat Ramen noodles for the rest of the year.

But since the Montage is just around the corner, that kind has me on the fence. If I'm going all Ramen anyway, might as well wait a little longer and go with the newer model.

 

[wineandkeyz]

Zephonic, before you plunk down cash on a 61- or 76-key Yamaha piece, make sure you play one first. Their keys are slightly narrower than those from other manufacturers -- as much as 1/4 inch or so per octave. It doesn't sound like much, but it bothered me enough that I sold my XF7 less than a year after I bought it. It might not have been so bad as a standalone rig, but in a multi-key rig, it just bugged me.

[Michael W]

Right now Im thinking the JP-50 is out. If the JP-80s lower part is as flexible as the upper part, that may be a better fit, but it would really stretch the budget at this time.

 

(...)

 

Thanks for expounding on this in great detail, much appreciated! And your vids sound great, too.

 

Yes, I believe the main difference between the J-80 and the J-50 is the addition of the Lower Part on the 80, which is basically identical to the Upper Part. This can make for some massively complex and lush sounds. Other differences you get with the 80 are a more intuitive GUI, color touchscreen, 256-note polyphony, and improved keybed (although the keybed on the 50 is quite decent). The 80 also has aftertouch, but I recall reading that what you can do with it is rather limited.

 

On the downside, the J-80 is a beast and weighs 39 lbs without a case, while the J-50 weighs 24 lbs.

 

If I had the spare money, I would gladly upgrade my 50 to and 80.

 

Regarding the videos - thanks - hope you found them helpful.

 

 

[zephonic]

Zephonic, before you plunk down cash on a 61- or 76-key Yamaha piece, make sure you play one first. Their keys are slightly narrower than those from other manufacturers -- as much as 1/4 inch or so per octave. It doesn't sound like much, but it bothered me enough that I sold my XF7 less than a year after I bought it. It might not have been so bad as a standalone rig, but in a multi-key rig, it just bugged me.

 

Thanks. I have only ever played them at the store, and didn't notice that, but perhaps it is different if you have it side by side with another board.

 

The 80 also has aftertouch, but I recall reading that what you can do with it is rather limited.

 

Yeah, somebody on this forum (I believe it was anotherscott but could be someone else) said the aftertouch could (...inexplicably...) not be mapped to modulation. I don't know if that is indeed the case or whether an OS update remedied that, but if so, instant dealbreaker.

 

[ProfD]

It seems that the FA-06 is a more flexible (and traditional) layout, but if the keyboard feels crappy, it is a dealbreaker.

Hey Z, you already knew your KC brethren would provide recommendations from all angles.

 

No doubt...aftertouch is a great feature. But, IMO, you'll learn to work around and live without it quickly.

 

If I were in your situation, I'd seriously consider the Roland FA06 or Roland DS61.

 

They are a compromise in terms of build quality and keyboard action. But, I believe for the cost and features, they will suffice due to your familiarity with Roland gear.

 

Both seem to have a lot of the JV/XV/Fantom sounds. They have the right-hand pads and the ability to load samples too.

 

All things considered, I suggest taking those KBs for a spin before totally dismissing them due to their perceived shortcomings.

[zephonic]

Yeah, I will try the FA-06. On paper, it looks like a an amazing piece of kit for the money.

 

Right now I'm thinking to just get something that will hold me over until Roland announces the Jupiter 90

[zephonic]

I've been trying to push this back, thinking if I can hold out just long enough, I can go straight for a Montage. But with the moving house (and buying new appliances), that's just not an option this year.

 

However, on tonight's gig critical buttons started failing again, and it is clear I can no longer rely on the Fantom to get me through.

 

Last month I saw a Jupiter 50 at the Sam Ash on Sunset Blvd, but it was a floor model going for $1300. I like the keyboard, but it is too limited for what I do, so now I'm looking at the Korg Krome 73 as a possible alternative. I remember I liked it a couple years ago. Gonna call around tomorrow to see if any of the local stores have a 73 in stock (yeah, right).

 

Just wanted to see if Krome-owning brethren want to chime in with their experiences? Thanks.

 

[Mighty Ferguson]

I used a Krome for a short time while waiting for the new Kronos. The sounds are quite good overall, and while it doesn't have as many effect slots as the Kronos, I found it had enough for some fairly complex splits/layers. The touch screen is nice too. It felt very plastic, but was also extremely light (I had a 61). The deal breaker was really the keybed. It's pretty awful. I believe the 73 is the same keybed as the 61. No aftertouch as well, like some of the other boards mentioned. Other than the keys, they're good bang for the buck.

[Synthaholic]

I hate to sound like a broken record, but look for a good condition QS7.1 and use a combo of it's internal sounds (better than you think) and a rack module, like the Integra.

 

You'll have a really good 76 synth keybed, Aftertouch, and as I recently became aware, Release Velocity.

 

28lbs, as compact as you can get for 76 keys, and an all-metal chassis.

 

If you find one, but don't pull the trigger on it let me know. I could use a third backup (I have two).

[zephonic]

Well, after a lot of back and forth, I've finally ordered a Korg Krome 73.

 

Not the ideal keyboard by any stretch of the imagination, but it ticks all but four boxes (aftertouch, good action, build quality, internal PSU) at a sensible price.

 

[RudyS]

Congrats Menno,

 

If you like the action, it's a great board IMO. I really like the korg sounds. The piano is also quite good!

 

[zxcvbnm098]

Until I read Synthaholic's note on the Alesis QS7.1, I had forgotten how much I liked the QS6.1 I had back at the turn of the century. They indeed were super well made, internal power supply, light and small footprint, and with darn good sounds.

A shame they shifted focus after that...

 

 

[zephonic]

Congrats Menno,

 

If you like the action, it's a great board IMO. I really like the korg sounds. The piano is also quite good!

 

Actually, the action is one of four things I don't like about this board. ^^^

 

But in its price range it was the best over-all fit for my needs. The Jupiter 50 is the only other alternative, and while it has much better build quality and a great-feeling action, its design limits make it unsuitable for much of what I do.

 

I have 45 days to return the Krome if the action turns out to be the dealbreaker folks here say it is. I can live with the cheapo build quality, external PSU, and no aftertouch.

[Mighty Ferguson]

Good idea making sure you've got a return window, but you may not mind the keybed in the end. It's very much personal taste. You're doing the right thing by deciding for yourself rather than relying completely on posts here I think. It seems that the two keybeds on here that get the most hate are the Krome and the FA-06, with more people tolerating what's bad about the FA-06 than what's bad about the Krome. I seem to be the opposite, and would rather live with the Krome keybed over the FA-06. It's very subjective.

[zephonic]

I did my first round of gigs with the Krome 73 this weekend. It sounds pretty strong, punchier than the Fantom, I'd say.

 

I used it as an only board on Friday, and that wasn't great; you guys weren't kidding about the action, feels like it came straight out of the Fisher Price vaults.

 

Did a left-hand bass thing at the church, and that took quite a bit of getting used to; the shallow throw messes with my timing a little bit.

 

Finally I used it as top-tier board this afternoon on a Cumbia hit, and for that it's pretty good. Mostly horn parts, organ, pads etc. The action doesn't bother me as much in that capacity.

 

 

Other things that bug me:

 

-the display is superbright, which is distracting on a dark stage, to the point where it is really hard to see the buttons. I have not yet found out whether or not it can be adjusted.

 

-the external PSU's wire should be a foot longer. With the board on the second tier the wire has to go straight down, and if I want to channel it along the legs of the stand the brick leaves the floor and needs to be fastened to the stand. Not cool.

 

 

But I do like the way it sounds. In fact, it makes me wonder if a Kronos would be a good fit for me.

 

 

 

[ElmerJFudd]

Thanks for the honest feedback. Agree entirely on the action. And it's build is only OK. The plastic used reminds me of the X-50 - if you held the handle bars and twisted one way with the right and the opposite with your left you could crack the case open. But the price is right, tons of useable sounds and it's light. So, that's that. Other options... PX-5S/560 maybe, but not offered in a 73 and maybe you wanted a synth action... Roland Jupiter-50?

[RudyS]

Do you know if you want to keep it?

[zephonic]

Undecided. Like I said ^^^, I'm okay with it as a top-tier board, but I'd like it to cover single-board duties as well, and for that I am not yet digging it.

 

Thing is, if I don't keep it, what's the alternative?

 

[ElmerJFudd]

There's alternatives, Zeph. We just have to run down your budget and needs again...

 

What action do you want when you gig 1 keyboard?

What sounds do you really need mainly?

How heavy you willing to go?

How long width are you willing to go? / # of keys?

 

And lastly, now that you know how far your $ goes. What's your real budget?

 

That should get us to the right match for you.

 

 

 

[zephonic]

Nah, I've checked. The only other multi-purpose, semi-weighted 6-octave boards in that price range are the Jupiter 50 and Kurzweil SP4-7.

 

The J50 has better action and build quality, but its voice architecture is too limited for what I do. Otherwise I would have scooped that up already!

 

I haven't tried the SP4-7, but from what I know of other Kurzweils I've tried, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be the right fit.

 

 

I think I'll have to make peace with the Krome for now, until I can afford another flagship synth.