3 keyboard setup, does it work for you?

[Tom Williams]

My standard is a stack with a PC361 on top, and a very basic 88 key controller (always on channel 1) directly under it. It's easy on the PC3 to preselect piano or some such on layer 1, and then play layer 2 on the PC3's keyboard. Plenty of polyphony to go around.

 

Since the 88 key controller doesn't have any real top console, I can have it adjacent to the bottom of the PC3, as close as a pair of organ manuals.

 

If I need to get more complex, I can use setups, all on the PC3.

 

If I were gigging with a group I would probably go with an L arrangement with a second stack of 2, so I could have piano, organ, and synth handy at all times. That's actually what my at-home rig is.

 

I almost never sit.

[Al Coda]

I go thru great pains to make sure I only need one keyboard for gigging.

 

I only use 1 keyboard for fun jams.

Coming from Fender Rhodes which I played for almost a decade and nothing else.

Doesn´t matter how the original recording of a given song sounds then,- the result will be a diferent version, following form and changes.

 

It´s just only music !

 

I like both,- keeping it super simple and just play.

Almost no expectations on the payment then.

 

Using super complex MIDI rigs w/ several keyboards and modules when the gig needs that.

 

The latter requires a lot of time investment and programming, but when the gig pays that job, it´s welcome and there´s some sportive perspective in both the extremes,- the super simple one w/ the freedom of improvisation and the super complex one w/ all the restrictions multiple splits, layers and keyboard zoning introduce.

 

I already made money w/ music regulary when MIDI didn´t exist and grew up as a pro when it was introduced.

I waded thru all the hiccups ...

It was a big advantage being in from the very beginning, so it was kind of evolution and not being forced to learn complexity of todays gear in much, much shorter time.

I don´t have to read manuals much these days because of MIDI implementation or recognizing which gear is not for me.

 

Most musical freedom w/ 1 or 2 keyboard only,- no-preset system prefered,- like a good Rhodes,- Clav and Wurly sound and Minimoog as a lead instrument.

A 3rd instrument in that context would be a organ then.

 

Best sonic quality and replication of other pop- and rock- music composers, arrangers, producers and performing artist w/ an assortment of reliable and flexible modern gear.

 

I have an assortment of gear I can build several configurations of keyboard rigs from.

It´s not the latest greatest gear, but gear I know well.

 

Now, when someone comes and pays a kingdom for a tour, wanting some rig completely different from what I have,- lets say the 2 keyboard controllers and laptop software rig (which I hate),- I go, buy it and prepare the songs,- after I received the signed contract.

 

I know, that´s not the weekend warrior w/ a backup job situation,- but if I were a weekend warrior, I won´t invest in pro touring keyboard rigs at all since I make my living w/ the backup job.

 

The more they pay, the more I´m the slave.

When they pay not much, I´m the man deciding what will be set up on stage and bring in my ego.

 

A.C.

 

[Al Coda]

 

Three boards stacked works well for me sitting.

 

In the 80s, I performed on rigs w/ 3 stacked keyboards on USS A-frame stands,- 3 of these in U-configuration,- and a 20HU rack in the back, a mixer and power amp in addition and 2 big EV 3-way cabs.

 

I still cannot imagine performing on a stack of 3 keyboards permanently sitting.

 

So,- I think you sometimes sit, sometimes stand up.

 

A.C.

[J. Dan]

It comes down to your setup philosophy, which has been discussed here before. If you're the kind of guy who likes to switch patches manually mid song and have a patch per keyboard, then you need more boards. I'm of the philosophy that I set up a combination per song with all of the splits and layers I need for the entire song all mapped out across whatever keyboard real estate I have available to me. As such, I use a Kronos 61 on top and an A70 on bottom. Many would replace the bottom with a Privia or 88-key of their choice, which is understandable. The sound comes from one place, but yet I at times have 6-8 sounds available under my fingertips. Not everybody likes trying to keep track of which sounds are mapped where, and sometimes I have to get really creative to figure out how to get all the zones squeezed in on the real estate I have. But I think the tradeoff is well worth it when you consider most gigs wouldn't give me enough space for a 3rd board not to mention the schlep factor.

[NewImprov]

A (minimum) 3 keyboard setup is what works best for me. My current setup is a Casio PX-5s on bottom, a Hammond XK-1 in the middle, and an M-Audio Axiom as the top board, controlling a rack-mounted Mac Mini running Mainstage. My stand is a K&M 18880 and 18882 stacker, plus a 3rd tier that I made out of some scrap wood.

 

I like the 3-tier setup because it means I rarely have to split the keyboards, the PX is almost always doing AP, Rhodes or Wurly duties, the Hammond doing the obvious, and the Axiom acting a a clav, mellotron, mono or polysynth, or, very occasionally, a horn section (I hate doing fake horns, but sometimes, you gotta do what you gotta do). I play seated most of the time, and for this to work, it's essential that the boards are as close together as possible. The K&M is the best stand I've found for my needs, and I have gone through a lot of stands to find it.

[Bobadohshe]

I use 2 boards for my top 40 band, Motif XS6 and CP4. Sometimes I bring a third, my SK2, when the gig is high profile or I'm just in the mood. I rock the L when I do this.

[stevie b]

My standard is a stack with a PC361 on top, and a very basic 88 key controller (always on channel 1) directly under it. It's easy on the PC3 to preselect piano or some such on layer 1, and then play layer 2 on the PC3's keyboard. Plenty of polyphony to go around.

 

Good to know this works well. I've been seriously pondering my new gig rig and leaning towards a Kurz PC3K7 over a SV1 73. It may not be the latest sounds, but satisfies my check list which includes a close stack with no buried controls, sampling, and capable organ and synth on top with good piano/eps on bottom.

It also allows me to just take the Kurz to most practices, to cover all bases.

 

 

[jimkost2002]

Al, thanks for your perspective, that is exactly my perspective and approach.

I always enjoy and learn from you.

[wjones]

I set my Electro 5D on top of a Doepfer weighted controller for most of my gigs. When the gig allows it, I'll bring my Octave the CAT and put it at a 45 degree angle over the bottom edge of my Doepfer (I don't use the mod wheels). I sit to play, but when I play synth, I do so much knob twiddling- that I just gotta stand up. I guess that gives me somewhat of a stubby, angled L.

[Daniel Heslop]

A 3 stack is my favourite configuration. I'm not a fan of the L though.

 

I have done a 2 stack with the third on top at a roughly 45 degree angle, so it is sort of the top tier, but I can still see over the rig, and see the panel on the second tier. I did this when my top keyboard was my Korg mono/poly

 

However, now my top tier is the Yamaha reface CS, and this would be an area where it's small size is a definite advantage. if you can handle mini keys, this is definitely an area where they work well.

 

I'm not gigging with a 3 stack though because I find the DP a bit of a PITA to move as it is 40lbs and doesn't like to sit cross ways in a vehicle, so I midi the CS to my Kross and play organ and other sounds on the CS, and mostly use the Kross as my piano. Not much I play requires 3 keyboards either.

 

I am considering a couple changes though. One is getting a reface YC organ, so I would have a 3 stack likely, but with 2 of them tiny instruments.

Or getting a light weight DP with less than 88 keys...preferably 76.

 

I've done a ton of gigging with a workstation, but I honestly hate working with splits and remembering combi numbers. I love the simplicity of set up and tear down, but that is it, so if I can use 3 (or 4 ) lightweight and even mini key boards to give me immediate access to a variety of sounds on the fly, I'd rather go that route.

[J. Dan]

My standard is a stack with a PC361 on top, and a very basic 88 key controller (always on channel 1) directly under it. It's easy on the PC3 to preselect piano or some such on layer 1, and then play layer 2 on the PC3's keyboard. Plenty of polyphony to go around.

 

Good to know this works well. I've been seriously pondering my new gig rig and leaning towards a Kurz PC3K7 over a SV1 73. It may not be the latest sounds, but satisfies my check list which includes a close stack with no buried controls, sampling, and capable organ and synth on top with good piano/eps on bottom.

It also allows me to just take the Kurz to most practices, to cover all bases.

 

 

Does it bother you that the PC3K7 is semi-weighted? I don't know exactly how heavy that action is, but I like unweighted for organ/synth stuff. My A70 is supposed to be semi-weighted but is really basically a good feeling unweighted. I wouldn't mind having weighted or a heavier semiweighted on bottom.

[AnotherScott]

Does it bother you that the PC3K7 is semi-weighted? I don't know exactly how heavy that action is, but I like unweighted for organ/synth stuff. My A70 is supposed to be semi-weighted but is really basically a good feeling unweighted.

In a sense, all any semi-weighted can be is basically a good feeling unweighted. PC3K7 action is fair... feel for organ/synth is fine except it is a bit highly sprung, returning with more force than I'd like (which has nothing to do with the weightedness per se_. And that's pushback is just as annoying for piano as it is for organ. There used to be a company that sold replacement springs with less tension, I thought that improved it all around.

[DanL]

I have been using 4 boards with my Floyd tribute, set in an L, with FA08 and SK1 on 1 stand, and Ultranova and Moog Phatty on a 2nd stand to the right.

 

I just got a Nord Lead A1 and now use just the 3 boards. I had it set in an L, and decided to experiment with a home made 3rd tier I used to use on a double tier X stand. It works, so now I have the 3 boards stacked up setup. I had to remap a couple patches, like where I was holding down a pad in the upper part of the FA08 and playing a lead on the 'nova or Moog, that doesn't work now so I moved the pad part to the bottom of the keyboard so my hands are not crossed up doing the lead.

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj60/dan88z/Mobile%20Uploads/20160126_110604_zpsdvfsx2vt.jpg

 

Nice setup, but can you see the screen of the FA08?

 

Yes, but even with the 2 board setup of the SK and FA, if I'm standing I have to crouch down to see it. So it is partly obscured but while sitting I can see it just fine. This pic was taken to get all 3 boards in the frame, from high up, it's not really a representation of how the visibility is between the boards.

 

[marczellm]

I've only done the 3 keyboards thing once, at a worship anniversary event. Didn't yet have the NS2, so I brought my Roland FP5 digital piano, and connected a MIDI controller to the JUNO-G to access extra sounds in some songs. Now I use the NS2 as controller for the JUNO and the other way around too.

Also in one song I sang background with the violinist guy, but there was only 1 mic for the two of us so I assigned the controller (which was to my side) to the main sound so that I can sing into that mic.

[hardware]

If you can't get it done on 2 the 3rd one ain't going to help much...

[Daniel Heslop]

If you can't get it done on 2 the 3rd one ain't going to help much...

I don't understand this sentiment at all.

It has nothing to do with playing ability or anything like that. It is a question of how many sounds do you need to access quickly in a song.

If you are pretty much doing piano e.piano and organ sounds, then sure 1 or 2 should be plenty, but if you are covering for example, Yes or Genesis (sadly not many of us will need to do this) doing it with 2 keyboards is going to be pretty challenging.

I just prefer having another instrument to go to over pressing buttons within a song.

To me it feels more natural.

Also in a more open improvisation based situation, I can more easily express my ideas with a variety of instruments, than remembering program numbers.

 

I find workstations great tools for accomplishing a lot with a single keyboard, but it requires some level of pre-planning often.

Recently I went into a music store that had the entire reface line set up all together.

So I went in and did some jamming. My purpose was actually to check out the YC organ, but since the CP was there too I was able to improvise easily changing sounds on the fly on the CP YC and CS. No remembering program numbers, because each instrument does a limited thing, but does it really well.

 

Honestly, if they had a reface mellotron, I really think I would go with an all reface rig allowing me all the advantages of a multi keyboard rig, in a light weight, small stage footprint package.

I'm actually considering do this anyway with my old M1, using it to play the reface CP, and the CP to play rompler sounds from the m1.

(I could do this with the Kross, which is lighter, but I don't like the keybed much on it...still that might be the better way to go sonically)

So physically I would have a bottom tier of m1, a second tier of CP on the left, YC on the right, and a top tier of CS.

 

Anyway, I think there are definite advantages to more keyboards, and it has nothing at all to do with "not being able to get it done with 2"

[frogmonkey]

I love playing three or four boards.

I just can't stand carrying and setting up more than two.

[MathOfInsects]

Second thoughts.

[hardware]

I can access 36 parts per song using a total of 4 buttons with a 3 inch knob for scrolling.

 

Been using racks of synths and 8 zone controllers.

No set lists most of the time.

Chain functions aren't allowed.

 

Pretty sure Frankenstein using 7 parts is the most I use recently.

Most are usually 4 or 5.

Certain Tull songs have 6 since I have to do Guitar parts too.

 

I have to have a small control area for everything.

Can't be reaching around changing presets.

I swell horn sections B3 drawbars all by FC7s.

 

Just depends what Master MIDI Controller you use.

Personal preference.

 

 

 

[Losendoskeys]

If you can't get it done on 2 the 3rd one ain't going to help much...

I don't understand this sentiment at all.

It has nothing to do with playing ability or anything like that. It is a question of how many sounds do you need to access quickly in a song.

If you are pretty much doing piano e.piano and organ sounds, then sure 1 or 2 should be plenty, but if you are covering for example, Yes or Genesis (sadly not many of us will need to do this) doing it with 2 keyboards is going to be pretty challenging.

I just prefer having another instrument to go to over pressing buttons within a song.

To me it feels more natural.

Also in a more open improvisation based situation, I can more easily express my ideas with a variety of instruments, than remembering program numbers.

 

I find workstations great tools for accomplishing a lot with a single keyboard, but it requires some level of pre-planning often.

Recently I went into a music store that had the entire reface line set up all together.

So I went in and did some jamming. My purpose was actually to check out the YC organ, but since the CP was there too I was able to improvise easily changing sounds on the fly on the CP YC and CS. No remembering program numbers, because each instrument does a limited thing, but does it really well.

 

Honestly, if they had a reface mellotron, I really think I would go with an all reface rig allowing me all the advantages of a multi keyboard rig, in a light weight, small stage footprint package.

I'm actually considering do this anyway with my old M1, using it to play the reface CP, and the CP to play rompler sounds from the m1.

(I could do this with the Kross, which is lighter, but I don't like the keybed much on it...still that might be the better way to go sonically)

So physically I would have a bottom tier of m1, a second tier of CP on the left, YC on the right, and a top tier of CS.

 

Anyway, I think there are definite advantages to more keyboards, and it has nothing at all to do with "not being able to get it done with 2"

 

Seconded.

There are parts I play in which it is physically impossible to hit a switch where it would be necessary with a 2 keyboard setup.

Only three will do and four is preferable.

 

Tony Banks played with a Hammond, an ARP Prosoloist, a piano (RMI or Pianet or CP70) and Mellotron as a minimum.

It makes more sense logically to map this as far as possible.

Keep it simple then you remember in the heat of the gig where everything is. So three keyboards minimum.

Mapping multiple splits and layers across e.g. two 88 keyboards would be a total nightmare - and yes, I have tried it.

[Losendoskeys]

 

Three boards stacked works well for me sitting.

 

In the 80s, I performed on rigs w/ 3 stacked keyboards on USS A-frame stands,- 3 of these in U-configuration,- and a 20HU rack in the back, a mixer and power amp in addition and 2 big EV 3-way cabs.

 

I still cannot imagine performing on a stack of 3 keyboards permanently sitting.

 

So,- I think you sometimes sit, sometimes stand up.

 

A.C.

 

I used a three keyboard stack for 7 years and sat all the time.

The trick is to get the stack stand modified so you can get the layers as close as possible yet access the controls.

Tilting the keyboards also helps.

I originally used an x-stand then moved to a Solidstand - that was excellent for rigidity and the fact you could move it up and down with the keys in place. Then I went to an L...........

[DanL]

I can access 36 parts per song using a total of 4 buttons with a 3 inch knob for scrolling.

 

Been using racks of synths and 8 zone controllers.

No set lists most of the time.

Chain functions aren't allowed.

 

Pretty sure Frankenstein using 7 parts is the most I use recently.

Most are usually 4 or 5.

Certain Tull songs have 6 since I have to do Guitar parts too.

 

I have to have a small control area for everything.

Can't be reaching around changing presets.

I swell horn sections B3 drawbars all by FC7s.

 

Just depends what Master MIDI Controller you use.

Personal preference.

 

 

 

Who has time to scroll while using both hands to play parts? I want to press a button or 2 to call up a preset and have it change the patches on my other boards, and then not have to worry about doing any other patch changes during a song. I'm trying to think how I'd pull off Dogs or something like that with just 2 boards, unless I had a rack of synths and then I'd still have to make changes to how things are mapped during the song.

[Outkaster]

It's all about management. I see rigs and guys that have all these weird set ups that are so inefficient all the time and I think to myself what are they thinking?

[DanL]

Totally agree. I spend a good amount of time programming my rig at home to maximize it's capability, so that when I'm on the gig, it's quick and efficient. What sounds are mapped to where, what the expression pedals are doing, what controller knobs are doing what. It's the fun part for me really, diving in and figuring out how to get 8-9 sounds mapped to 3 boards, one of which can only do organ and 1 other sound at a time.

[synthizen2]

It comes down to your setup philosophy, which has been discussed here before. If you're the kind of guy who likes to switch patches manually mid song and have a patch per keyboard, then you need more boards. I'm of the philosophy that I set up a combination per song with all of the splits and layers I need for the entire song all mapped out across whatever keyboard real estate I have available to me.

 

This is generally my philosophy as well, except when it comes to synths that share the same FX bus over all the splits. Since all my boards are older, they don't split the FX in the multi's. So if I have an organ sound with overdrive on my Z1, and then need to play a flute part mid-way through the song, I need to patch-change midsong. For many songs, I get lucky and can do 2 or 3 splits with the sounds sharing the same FX. But not always. Guess I just need to update some of my kit.

[rockinredeye]

Tried the L for a short time, but turning my head back and forth was distracting and not fun. Never could get used to looking 90 degrees to the side.

 

It used to be that between songs all the guys would look at me to be sure I had changed all my keyboards for the next song. Sometimes they still do but I'm always ahead of them. Kurzweils (and other boards) have a function that will change entire setups with one button or foot pedal press. One button and I have all new sounds and zones. Very convenient and fast. Changing a second and/or third keyboard would be just as fast. A lot of homework, though.

[tucktronix]

I've done the "L" setup a few times, but never felt very comfortable with it. For me, I need to have each board close together where I can reach the controls at will. I'm a sit-down player, and have recently found a 3-board setup that worked well for me. I've adopted the setup for my funk/soul/blues band with the Casio PX-5S at the bottom tier, the Korg CX-3 at the top tier and a Novation Ultranova sitting on top of the CX-3. This way, everything is within reach, and since the Casio has a pretty thin width, I have plenty of room on the bottom tier to move the Casio further back to adjust if need be.

[AnotherScott]

This thread has taken many turns since what seemed like a simple question of whether it's possible to do a 3-keyboard stack while sitting. ;-)

 

For a typical wedding-style gig, I usually use a stack of two, sometimes tossing in a single manual clonewheel as a third if I'm feeling ambitious. If it's a more fun prog/classic rock gig, it's usually 4 boards (usually but not always in a single stack), though I've done 6.

 

Right now, I'm evaluating a new rig for original gigs, and I might do as much as 5... the irony is that while this is the kind of gig I most want an elaborate setup for, I might need to create a 2-board rig for some of these gigs because of a need for faster setup/breakdown and/or smaller footprint. If I ever need to get the rig down to something flight-friendly, then the kind of gig I most wanted all the boards for could end up using none of them.

[stevie b]

Just curious how many three stackers sing some lead vocals.

I do, and the mic positioning and visibility are the primary reasons I avoid the three stack.

I'm working now to achieve a very low profile two stack.

My current short List of weighted lower board options on which a top board can be placed without covering controls or displays is:

Korg SV-1

Yamaha CP-4

Casio PX-5s

 

[Daniel Heslop]

I think that is an area where having the top keyboard, especially if it is a 49 or fewer key board, at a 45 degree angle helps.

I don't have a photo of exactly what I mean but here is an old set up of mine with 5 keyboards. Exclude the 2 on the right and that is what I'm talking about.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v220/spidergoalie/Music/5%20key%20rig%201.jpg

 

When I was using only three, I had the mono/poly a bit closer so it would be immediately beside the music stand, but still at an angle.

If the music stand isn't there I think this allows for a clear view for both the performer and the audience.

 

This is at sitting height, though it could be raised if I wanted to stand. Of course this means you are playing the top keyboard with your right hand, so if it needs to be played with the left sometimes it won't work, but it is better than an L simply because everything is still more or less in front of you, so less looking side to side, which if you are singing is obviously a big advantage as well.

 

I am using all Apex type stands here too. If I was using X stands or really anything else it might be dicey for where the bottoms of the stands meet up.

 

Again requiring a clear view is another reason why a smaller board like a reface is good if you can cope with the mini keys. That is another option from this set up.