Looks like Joey De is eBaying his Numa Organ 1

[ElmerJFudd]

Or is it one of yous guys?

 

Numa-Organ-Hammond-Clone-Personally-Owned-By-Joey-DeFrancesco

 

He'll sign if you like.

[Doerfler]

 

He'll sign if you like.

 

It's him. This auction has been up for almost a month. Nobody is buying these things. I had one myself, sold it 2.5 years ago. Besides, they all have Joey's name on them anyway.

[ElmerJFudd]

trooooo, i just went to the studio logic site wondering on that.

why'd you let it go, dave?

does the v2 sound much different/better than the prior?

this one has a little more real estate on top for a little synth.... like a Nord Lead Rack, or maybe a Blofeld.

[Doerfler]

Anotherscott still has one and LX 88 still gigs with his. I would buy a Numa 1 over a Numa 2 if I was buying either. I used mine with an Original Ventilator, was a good combination. I sold mine mostly because I didn't need a clone any more at the time(that has since changed) and I went a different route this time.

[MuzikTeechur]

His personal Rhodes Suitcase 73 is up for sale, too.

 

Suitcase 73 on FleaBay

[ElmerJFudd]

Cleaning house. I have to imagine access to keys is not a problem at JD's.

[hurricane hugo]

His personal Rhodes Suitcase 73 is up for sale, too.

 

Suitcase 73 on FleaBay

 

I scrolled to the bottom of that page. Some bastard's trying to get $5,300 for a Wurly 200.

[MuzikTeechur]

His personal Rhodes Suitcase 73 is up for sale, too.

 

Suitcase 73 on FleaBay

 

I scrolled to the bottom of that page. Some bastard's trying to get $5,300 for a Wurly 200.

 

Well, he can try to get $5,300 for a Wurly, but will he find someone who has $5,300 and is stupid enough to overpay by $4,000 for it?

 

[LX88]

It seems like a deal to me, regardless of who owns it.

 

Yeah... I still love mine. I have no beef with my Numa. It has always done what I need it to do...sounds like a Hammond in a 22lb. package.

 

I think that Dazzjazz just picked one up for a bit more money than this.

 

That being said, the only thing I would be careful about would be that some of the early units were buggy. It had to do with the connector terminals if I recall. I am assuming he would have gotten one of the first units.

 

Joey has sort of blown his credibility as an endorser though. This sale in itself speaks volumes. Put your name on a product and then put it on e bay? Seriously....

 

I do know that Joey was proud of it when it came out. I also know he probably expected a lot more in terms of revenue generated from it. Notice how the Numa 2 price went down without his endorsement.

[ElmerJFudd]

With the Numa Organ 2 they dropped JD's name, as well as size and weight. Anyone familiar with anything they improved on in v2? Or perhaps was there something they didn't get right on the new model?

 

Chris Martirano's demo at Kraft is pretty good...

 

[video:youtube]

[Doerfler]

Chris Martirano's demo at Kraft is pretty good...

 

Chris demoing anything will make you want to buy it. He is a very talented cat and has been doing what he does for a long, long, time.

[HammondDave]

No reason to diss Joey or question his credibility for endorsing anyone or for selling his equipment. Even the great jazz artists need money. I don't see him driving around in limos.

[ElmerJFudd]

No disrespect to Joey - very few here who don't know how difficult it is to earn a living in music. Especially any of the genres that require the dedication to study and practice that JD loves - needless to say, I'm a fan. If anything, I was in awe that he was selling personally and thought a little attention might help his auction. :shrug:

 

Besides, no secret that I'm looking for a clone/synth combo that suits me and the Numa Organ could be viable.

[ElmerJFudd]

[video:youtube]

 

[video:youtube]

 

[video:youtube]

 

[video:youtube]

 

[video:youtube]

[AnotherScott]

Anotherscott still has one

Yup, and a variety of other clones as well. Though the Numa has been the one I've been gigging with.

 

With the Numa Organ 2 they dropped JD's name, as well as size and weight. Anyone familiar with anything they improved on in v2? Or perhaps was there something they didn't get right on the new model?

Mr. Fudd also PM'd me on this topic (as well as thoughts about other clones, and what I use for synth), but since it is of general interest, I thought I'd re-post my thoughts here, based on my having played both:

 

Numa Organ 2 offers better action and better rotary effect than the original. Original offers better overdrive, better leakage, and slightly better key click. Foldback behavior is different, though I don't know which is more accurate. The 2 has a wider variety of sounds, none of which are identical to the original, though one is quite close. In the end, I decided to stick with the original. The biggest advantage of the new one to me was the rotary effect, but I could achieve that by putting a Vent on the original, whereas there was no way for me to get the other sonic qualities I preferred on the original out of the 2. I also preferred the sound of the Numa to the Nord and Hammond.

 

I have not played a Mojo, but while I really like the idea of a 2 manual organ, I don't want to deal with the travel weight, and I don't like the additional controls placed above the drawbars, which makes it that much more impractical to consider stacking another board above it.

 

Most of my gigs are weddings and such, where I use a piano-board on bottom and a multi-purpose board above... I rarely bring a 3rd board to that kind of gig, but when I do, it's the Numa. On my more rare prog/original gigs, I bring a *minimum* of 3 boards. I haven't settled on a particular "synth" -- sometimes I settle for the synth sounds in my other boards, other times I do add a dedicated "real" synth, though I keep meaning to play with module alternatives.

 

I had a recent gig where I did a lot of ELP... at the last minute I made a change, and unfortunately was not happy with one of the main synth sounds, but it was okay. If you're into ELP, here are some videos, and you can hear the Numa organ there...

 

[video:youtube]

 

[video:youtube]

 

 

[ElmerJFudd]

Indeed, and nice job on the ELP. Clearly a labor of love working out these parts and sounds and fx.

[Craig MacDonald]

Nice job Anotherscott!

 

I've played Hoedown in a couple of bands when I was younger, and we put America in the middle of it, after the synth solo, that was really cool to play too. The original Numa sounds great.. I loved my original Numa but it was one of the early buggy ones and the support was awful, so it went back. Other reports I've hear about the Numa 2 sound weren't quite so flattering as yours, but a couple of demos I heard sounded pretty good. I doubt I'll ever get to try one in person. Thanks for posting you videos..

[AnotherScott]

Thanks for the compliments, guys. I actually wasn't going to post the vids, but went to include the URL of my "shameless plug" where I first posted about the gig when it happened and had added videos... it turns out that those posts scroll away, it was gone!

 

Yeah, we did America too, but instead of tossing it into Hoedown, we tossed it into Fanfare. ;-)

 

Other reports I've hear about the Numa 2 sound weren't quite so flattering as yours, but a couple of demos I heard sounded pretty good.

 

Okay, so a little more about that...

 

When comparing the "organ model" on the new Numa that is closest to the one in the original, I'd say the 2 seems a little fuller/warmer/bassier (in part, but not entirely due to the different foldback implementation), the original has a more biting high end. But it's not a night and day difference. The 2 also has the alternate organ models you can call up, which are far more different from what I consider the "primary" sound than the primary sound is from its original Numa Organ equivalent... and I think the organ sound you prefer is strictly a matter of taste.

 

To me, the leakage and overdrive are where the original is most clearly better (to my ears), as well as having I think a slightly "spittier" key click. It was these "ancillary" characteristics that sway me to the original. I do like the newer action though. It appears to be acheived primarily through a less highly tensioned spring, and, to a lesser extent, a strip of felt that shortens the key travel.

 

I think the 2 is remarkably good, especially at its reduced price... but for me, those ancillary characteristics still give the original the edge. (I actually like the combination of the original's OD with that of the Vent, too.) If I was a different kind of player, and didn't care about the leakage and overdrive, I might well prefer the new model with its lower price and better action.

 

A little more about rotary effects... I know many people here a few years ago were saying that the original Numa Organ rotary effect was so good (and so much better than the competitors except perhaps Mojo) that a Vent was hardly better, if at all... I did not find that to be the case, I thought the Vent provided a huge improvement in the rotary effect. Maybe my different perspective resulted from the fact that I usually run mono. But I did not find the Numa's rotary to be "all that." OTOH, the rotary effect on the Numa 2 is *much* more three-dimensional to my ears, even in mono. If it wasn't for the overdrive issue (which doesn't matter for "cleaner" players), I would be perfectly content playing the 2 with its internal sim, whereas with the original, I really want the Vent. In a way, that makes the price difference between the two even greater.

[ElmerJFudd]

Not a huge fan of Muzikuj comparison vids. But this is one of a rare chance to hear the sounds immediately next to each other - never any chance of this to do personally on a showroom floor. At least not within reasonable driving distance.

 

[video:youtube]

[Mitch Towne]

Both Numas are keyboards that I really wish I could have talked myself into liking. I definitely gave them a few chances but they always fell short.

[AnotherScott]

Nice comparison video.

 

The tones are different (more so with some drawbars than others), but I can't conclusively say that I consistently prefer one tone to another. Also, he only compared one of the three tone sets in the Numa 2, which are probably as different from each other as the Numa 2 in the vid is to the Hammond and Nord.

 

On the fast Leslie especially, I think you can really hear the three-dimensionality of the Numa 2, which you don't get in the Nord or Hammond--or original Numa--which is why it's the only one of the four I wouldn't feel a strong desire to put a Vent on, at least for rotary effect. Which as I mentioned, can make the Numa that much more of a bargain. Personally, without a Vent, for organ alone, my pick of the three in the video would be the Numa 2. But if you can add a Vent and/or if other sounds are also of concern, then the equation can change.

 

The Numa 2's overdrive isn't the worst around by any means... but the original Numa's was better.

 

No comparison here of leakage and key click. There's also potential variation in how the various features interact. For example, the sound of the percussion when some overdrive is added. And of course, there's the action difference, where I would say Numa 2 is best, Hammond in the middle, and Nord weakest (basically, listed in order of increasing pushback or spring resistance). If you are going to add some sounds with something like an iPad or laptop, the Numa also has the advantages of 73 keys (albeit only in a non-organ mode), pitch wheel, and mod wheel.

[ElmerJFudd]

Yeah, Muzikuj goofs up settings for discerning ear comparisons all the time, but alas... tricky to find this A/Bing type info.

 

On the other hand, when making an effort, it becomes apparent you can get one to sound like the other if that's your desire...

 

For example, running the Nord Stage 2 and the Numa Organ 1 straight and through the burn, although I have no idea what he's using for an amp (possibly that Roland box on the right) in which case... your amp and speakers make a big difference as well.

 

[video:youtube]

 

 

 

Or these ambient recordings of the a C3 (through Leslie 3300) and Numa Organ 1 through his HiFi.

 

[video:youtube]

[video:youtube]

[video:youtube]

 

Numa 1 solo:

[video:youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4y2Ia5WCZYA

 

Numa 2 solo:

[video:youtube]

[JohnnyB3]

I have the Numa 1 - one limitation is that it has only one MIDI IN so if you want to connect a pedalboard and an "upper" manual you need a MIDI merger. (I think this may be for the Numa 2 as well since it also has only one MIDI in.) I use a Midi solutions merger but it requires power from the MIDI port of one the of MIDI merge devices - my pedalboard does not provide power from the MIDI out, so I use the MIDI out from a 61 key controller - BTW the Novation Impulse 61 did not supply power via the MIDI out but the Behringer UMX610 did. So make sure you have MIDI power from at least one of your merged devices if you go this way. I believe that the 2in/2out M-audio MIDISport has its own power and it will not matter if the merged devices supply power. Anyway, after I get my dual manual Mojo, no more messing with this setup. Hopefully the single manual Mojo will be able to accept both pedals and an additional manual directly. I would wait for that rather than buying a Numa 1, or 2!

[AnotherScott]

On the other hand, when making an effort, it becomes apparent you can get one to sound like the other if that's your desire...

 

For example, running the Nord Stage 2 and the Numa Organ 1 straight and through the burn, although I have no idea what he's using for an amp (possibly that Roland box on the right) in which case... your amp and speakers make a big difference as well.

That's my video. It demonstrates that the raw tone of the two are very similar. What the video does not show is that there are other differences which are very noticeable. Their internal rotary simulator, overdrive, leakage, and key click are quite different. BTW, I did end up selling the Burn. I liked the versatility, but never got quite the smile out of it that the Vent gave me.

 

Yes, they were playing through the SA300 Roland. Whatever coloration the amp provided was provided to both identically, so it served the purpose of showing the similarity of the internal tones, if not necessarily demonstrating each to its maximum sonic potential. Though really, I am pretty pleased with the SA300 for organ. It's not as good for piano, but still not bad. And it's less than stellar top end isn't really a factor for organ, which doesn't have much up there, especially if you're emulating a 122 cabinet on the way in anyway.

 

Anyway, while I'd have no problem gigging with the Nord, I feel I definitely get a better sound from the Numa, even if both have their internal rotary effect disabled and put through a Vent. When I add the desired amount of leakage, key click, and native overdrive on the Numa, I get a sound that is more organic (pardon the pun) than what I can get out of the Nord, and I prefer the action as well. OTOH, in a 2-board rig over an 88, the Nord is obviously way more versatile, with its sample section, knobby synth, splits/layers, aftertouch, and great pianos which can be driven from the 88 below.

[ElmerJFudd]

Ha! that's great, Scott. Example of how small our community is?

 

I've been going back and forth about my needs a long time. I can say that generally I do not like the action on the Nord Electro (not the Stage 2 which is way out of budget) but am not sure how much variation there is in the TP-8O we see on all these clones. Sound wise (personally) the Electro organ sim seems hyped (to me), meaning there are certain frequencies they like to boost and others cut that makes the organ thrill a bit solo, but I am not sure how it fits in the mix. The Hammond clones sound pretty good (Sk-1, Xk-1). The Numa, I need to get my hands on one to decide... it most likely will have to be a 30 day trial from Kraft or Alto (not sure who else carries it). The plus of course is I need more than a clone - need to cover synth stuff with the same keyboard, do the pitch and mod wheels are very useful.

 

Last question I think, when using MIDI out to a synth - so the preset keys on the left become available as note data for an extra octave down below?

 

Thanks!

[AnotherScott]

Last question I think, when using MIDI out to a synth - so the preset keys on the left become available as note data for an extra octave down below?

Yes... There are three modes (at least on the original, and I think the same on the 2):

 

1. Organ mode, bottom 12 keys are for preset selection only (yes, even if you enable split, unfortunately, where the extra playable keys would be quite handy)

 

2. MIDI mode, all 73 keys send MIDI, either all on channel 1, or, if you enable split, on channel 1 above the split point and on channel 2 below. (Note that not only does this mode turn "Local Off" as expected to prevent the organ from sounding when you play, it actually completely disables the organ engine, so you can't even trigger the organ sound externally when in this mode, which is not the way "local off" usually works.)

 

3. Dual mode, where it sends MIDI (again, channel 1; or channel 1 above split and channel 2 below) and also triggers organ. (Unfortunately, this mode is strictly 61 key, the bottom 12 revert to preset selection only.)

 

There is a button for the 61-key modes which allows you to turn the preset-key function off (to prevent you from accidentally switching sounds); it's a shame that, when turned off, those keys do nothing, when it would clearly be advantageous to have them send MIDI in Mode 3, and function as additional "lower manual" keys when doing a split organ.

 

 

[ElmerJFudd]

 

Thanks. Sounds like a few points easily rectified in a firmware update. Worth chatting about on their Facebook page.

[JohnnyB3]

...and he likely has another Numa or two still left. But don't expect to see his 1957 blonde B3 and matching 21H Leslie on eBay any time soon!:

 

https://www.facebook.com/JoeyDeFrancescoFanPage/photos/pcb.1149737595044259/1149737171710968/?type=3

 

https://www.facebook.com/JoeyDeFrancescoFanPage/photos/pcb.1149737595044259/1149737178377634/?type=3

 

 

 

 

 

[ElmerJFudd]

 

Digitals just don't hold their value like the real deal.

I guess that's why the garage sale turns them over so often.

[LX88]

My issue with Joey D. as an endorser is not so much disrespect as it is disappointment.

 

The Numa never really reached its potential as a product worthy of its 2000 dollar price tag. The Key B engine was great but it could have benefitted from just a few upgrades and none of that ever really happened.

 

I have been able to make the Numa work for me with some careful amplification and speaker selection choices. But I became frustrated by how hard it was to switch between different organ models which was one of the features that it initially was supposed to be able to do.

 

I think it's too bad Joey didn't get behind the product a bit more to help realize its potential. That is my frustration with this whole Numa business.