VST/Laptop rig vs Hardware

[Jefsong]

Happy holidays everyone. Once again its the end of the year and I'm thinking about switching up my live rig (which currently consists of Yamaha s90ES + Hammond SK2). It seems every year I think I am going to make the switch to Laptop/VST and somehow be happier. My biggest hurdle to get over is the fact that I MUST have a weighted 88 for piano. And If I am lugging a weighted 88 I might as well just use the onboard sounds. Less gear to bring and less possible hickups. I do like the s90ES piano but would like to have some other piano options. On the other hand lugging heavy gear around is becoming less appealing. I have searched and searched but I have not found a decent weighted 88 controller that isn't almost as much as a workstation. Also I haven't quite heard any VST's for Rhodes & Wurly that are much better than my S90ES.

 

So for you guys that are using Laptop/VST setups, how are you getting along? Are there VSTs out there are really amazing that I may not be aware of? For me I need Piano, Rhodes, Clav, strings mostly. I am happy with the SK2 for organ and its plenty lightweight.

[timwat]

Hey Jeffrey,

 

I'm not a laptop guy. Tried it some years ago and wasn't pleased. I realize everything has evolved and become more stable since then, but I'm satisfied as a hardware guy for now.

 

That full disclosure made - I'm not sure for a "bread and butter" rig ("Piano, Rhodes, Clav, strings mostly", as you say), that you're going to benefit that much from your hardware rig. Yes, there are lighter weighted 88s these days (the Yamaha CP4 is lighter than that, and the Casio PX 5s is even more so). But not sure you're going to get a sound-less controller much lighter.

 

More importantly, for bread and butter, will the audience to a live performance really hear significantly better sounds? Perhaps on a good pair of studio monitors, but with the vagaries of typical FOH?

 

Now, if you were going to run Omnisphere, a big orchestral library, complex synth stuff, etc. I could see the need for a really powerful VST rig. For what you describe...I'm not so sure.

 

Perhaps a VST user like our user "hardware" (who is gigging a Physis controller, I believe) can respond more intelligently than I can.

 

From the cheap seats, I'm thinking you get a lighter stage piano and call it all good.

 

Tim

[ElmerJFudd]

Ha! I also play the S90ES and have done so for oh, it's got to be 7 or 8 years, heck, maybe it's been 9 already. Great board, the S piano library sounds great on solo stuff. The EPs are nice, and the programs in all variety for easy tweaking. The organs are a bore - although passable in a pinch, particularly if you picked up Organimation from K-Sounds. I also have the DX and AN boards. Both sound great. I also found a cheap AP board which is a smaller, tighter sounding piano library that actually sounds real good in up tempo dance stuff.

 

With that said, it's bloody 50lbs. I have the Yamaha soft case with wheels. It's a bitch to get up and down tight stair cases and no fun to move in a rush between rooms... Especially on a wedding gig where you might be doing ceremony outside, to cocktails, then the bandstand. Try hauling it in that scenario in your tux on a hot August day.

 

Anyway, needless to say I've been eyeing the PX-5S, but then I saw the PX-560... Which now makes me feel the PX-5S revision will get get the touch screen and expression pedal input. So, yeah. I'm agree with Tim. A lighter stage piano is the ticket. I know I'd be horribly disappointed to play piano parts on a synth action or cheap controller.

 

On second tier, I haven't decided yet either. I recently sold off my old work horse, Roland XP-80. Eyeing the Kronos 61, PC3K 61, SK1, something like that. Although what I really would dig is a single manual DMC-122 with the Gemini board.

 

Mac Book or Mac Mini setup with Main Stage is attractive sometimes. But I fear a pain in the arse when you're used to turn it on and play. And now you're carrying pieces and more wires.

 

 

[klezman]

I love my MainStage setup but its my "second board". I either use existing DP at the gig or my S90XS as foundation. For your purposes (Piano, Rhodes, Clav, strings), I can't imagine the complication (and yes extra pieces, wires, etc) is worth it.

[EscapeRocks]

 

Mac Book or Mac Mini setup with Main Stage is attractive sometimes. But I fear a pain in the arse when you're used to turn it on and play. And now you're carrying pieces and more wires.

 

 

This is where having a controller that is also an audio interface make things very simple.

 

When I am using my Mainstage rig, I use my PX5S as my 88 note board, and my MOXF6 as my 61 note controller.

 

No other gear than my MacBook, and the usb cables.

My MacBook Pro is basically just another sound module.

 

The MOXF6 has the dedicated front panel slider for DAW/VST volume control.

 

I use the MOXF in Master mode and it calls the patches in Mainstage when I select a new Master. Mainstage then calls the proper patch on the PX5S.

 

I have found this to be a VERY simple solution for bringing in the wonderful world of VST/AU sounds to my rig.

 

Setup:

 

PX5S USB to MacBook

MOXF6 USB to MacBook

PX5S Audio Out to MOXF6 Audio(A/D) In

MOXF6 audio L&R out to FOH

 

My MOXF6 acts as the stage "mixer" for my audio sources, as it always has. Adding the MacBook is easy in this scenario.

 

With the front panel audio gain control, and the front panel DA/VST volume control, I no longer use a rack.

 

Keyboard stand, small laptop stand, pedal board...done.

 

 

[johnchop]

Not speaking as a gigging guy, but I'm in timwat's camp. For bread and butter, I would get a PX5S and call it a day. The fewer moving parts in your rig, the better.

 

Good luck!

-John

 

[DanL]

You need to weigh the pros and cons of each option. S90ES/SK2- easy setup, but the Yamaha is pretty heavy to haul around. It's main piano is good and the other sounds are right up there with any other board.

 

VST rig- many options for sounds, but a pretty heft investment between a capable laptop solution, the softsynths themselves, and a good 88 note controller. Then there is the "what if" scenario that seems less likely with a hardware synth setup.

 

What do you need from a VST rig that you can't do now? Just to lighten the load? Or are there sounds you can't get on the current rig that you need?

 

[ABECK]

I'm in the same camp as Timwat. I tried it and just did not like it. Too much time mousing around when I would have been happier just playing. I found I would have to spend quite a bit of time programming ahead of time. Even so, I seemed to always run into unanticipated issues or hiccups. Then, there were just too many options. Always one more plug-in to get, always another folder to navigate....I just wasn't spending my time they way I wanted to.

Now, a lot of people make it work, and there are some great sonic options, but it just wasn't for me.

I prefer a more self contained approach. With most workstation style boards today, if you take the time to learn them well, will do everything you need them to.

[yannis D]

I don't know, but for a laptop rig price (sound interface, laptop, vst's etc) you could get an old Nord electro 2 rack and use it for clavs/wurlies/rhodes with your Yamaha. Of course you will have to haul around the Yamaha but i don't think there are too many solid options for a 88 controller out there which will not be bulky... You can velcro the Electro rack on your Yamaha and gig with just this.

 

If you don't find the rack solution very appealing, then the Apple Mainstage is the second option IMO: I use Pianoteq AP, The Grandeur AP (from NI libraries), Scarbee Rhodes and Wurlie A-200, VB3 organs, Mainstage's own clavinet and hammond organs, and some other VST's. The are just fine to play

[MotiDave]

I'm in the same camp as Timwat. I tried it and just did not like it. Too much time mousing around when I would have been happier just playing. I found I would have to spend quite a bit of time programming ahead of time. Even so, I seemed to always run into unanticipated issues or hiccups. Then, there were just too many options. Always one more plug-in to get, always another folder to navigate....I just wasn't spending my time they way I wanted to.

Now, a lot of people make it work, and there are some great sonic options, but it just wasn't for me.

I prefer a more self contained approach. With most workstation style boards today, if you take the time to learn them well, will do everything you need them to.

 

except fit in my overhead bin (for free) on a plane with a fully programmed professional set I can plug into any backlined controller board upon arrival.

 

this is why I keep reading these VST/Laptop threads, hoping to learn enough to go buy a rig I can carry in a backpack and start the programming road.

 

then another gig comes up and I need to just prepare for that instead with what I have. I don't like taking my workstation in an ATA case to the airport and handing it off to the crew there, for lug-schlep reasons, cost (usually costs an extra $!50 for it to fly with me, and of course fear.

 

that little TSA note I find inside when we land freaks me out .

[DanL]

I'm in the same camp as Timwat. I tried it and just did not like it. Too much time mousing around when I would have been happier just playing. I found I would have to spend quite a bit of time programming ahead of time. Even so, I seemed to always run into unanticipated issues or hiccups. Then, there were just too many options. Always one more plug-in to get, always another folder to navigate....I just wasn't spending my time they way I wanted to.

Now, a lot of people make it work, and there are some great sonic options, but it just wasn't for me.

I prefer a more self contained approach. With most workstation style boards today, if you take the time to learn them well, will do everything you need them to.

 

The ahead of time programming is the same for me whether it's hardware or software. I get all my patches and splits/layers done at home and then have 1 keyboard control patch changes for the rest. That takes time to do but it's great for gigs.

 

[ABECK]

Yes, your situation is a great example where a laptop rig is almost a necessity. There are plenty of pros making this type of setup work, so there are a lot of viable options.

With travel less of a factor for me, it's not one of my needs.

If music was my sole income, I'd look at it a little bit differently. I don't want to have to worry about upgrading my platform down the road because the hardware can't support the OS needed to run the updates to the VIs, and so on.....

 

[ABECK]

The ahead of time programming is the same for me whether it's hardware or software. I get all my patches and splits/layers done at home and then have 1 keyboard control patch changes for the rest. That takes time to do but it's great for gigs.

Ditto - I've just found an easier time working with hardware in this context. Maybe part of it is I'm on a computer all day, the last thing I want to look at when playing is another frigging computer screen.

 

[Jefsong]

Thanks everybody for your input. For local gigs my setup hardware works just fine for most gigs but for flyaway gigs the idea of just a backpack/laptop rig is very appealing.

 

No other gear than my MacBook, and the usb cables.

My MacBook Pro is basically just another sound module.

EscapeRocks tell me more about how your are interfacing Mainstage with your PX5s or MOFX. Can I do this with my S90ES master mode?

[delmar]

I too always check out these threads. It (sort of, I'll explain) amazes me that no major manufacturer has made a keyboard that incorporates a computer and interface. Add a Universal Audio-type online store for software...new goodies to buy every year for the gearslutz who always want something better. Upgradeable proprietary, or not, memory, storage and motherboard to fit a range of budgets. Three different action/size options.

Maybe no one does because of the need to keep selling us new clunky and expensive gear?

[timwat]

It (sort of, I'll explain) amazes me that no major manufacturer has made a keyboard that incorporates a computer and interface.

 

Open Labs Neko circa 2005.

 

Then Korg took the multiple engine concept proprietary with OASYS, then Kronos.

 

Now we've got keyboards that also provide audio interfaces (several, I think).

 

You gotta do what you think you've got competitive advantage doing...and I don't see any of the present major keyboard manufacturers having competitive advantage in computer / interface.

[roygBiv]

As much as I'd love to have an all-in-one lightweight computer based rig, I am firmly in the hardware camp for live performance - I get nervous enough playing without worrying about crashes, freezes, bumped flimsy USB connections, etc.

 

Maybe its just the old school guitar player in me, but I just want to plug it in, and let it rip. The rock that is, not my flatulence.

 

HOWEVER, I have started toying with Korg Module in a live setting, as sort of my "third keyboard" backup.

 

I'm a Windows guy, but the iPad is superior for this type of thing, because it is designed for getting around with just poking a finger - no keyboard required.

 

Also, Korg Module is only $40! And the sounds are fantastic. Of ALL the iPad apps (I've literally tried all of the major ones I can think of) it is the only one that has all three key components:

1) nice big letters, 2) very straightforward layout, 3) excellent, "pro" sounds.

 

The "Live Set List "is especially great - you can easily see everything you've lined up, and switch between patches by just touching them. Or even set your controller to switch patches. the only downside is some weird MIDI limitations, and no splits/layers (yet).

 

Scroll over to the "Live Set List" figure in the iPad screenshot below to see what I mean.

 

 

Korg Module

 

Here is a review from Keyboard Mag:

Keyboard magazine review of Korg module

 

They are also coming out with more and more sounds for purchase, so I don't think they are dropping this line anytime soon.

[JeffLearman]

I used a laptop with single keyboard for about five years, using the keyboard's piano and using the laptop for Hammond and Rhodes. Sounded great. Then I got a Nord Electro 2 and ditched the laptop.

 

I preferred the sound from the laptop, but having a second tier and the simplicity of setup was the deal killer for the laptop.

 

I wouldn't gig a laptop without a master keyboard that has decent sounds. I've never had a keyboard fail when playing live, but I had two or three cases where I had issues with the latop (one time just needing reboot during the set but OK for the rest of the night, one time where it didn't work at all.)

 

Admittedly, I did the worst case for laptops: I used the same laptop for everything, and it often got security updates that required reloading the audio interface driver (no idea why).

 

Regardless, I wouldn't want to go without a net of some kind.

 

I think your best bet is to first upgrade your Roland to something more portable. Then consider adding a laptop for extra sounds or for use when flying.

 

The best thing about a laptop is when using backline you get the sounds you expect, though you may not get the action or controllability you want. I've never played backline gear and I don't know how folks with complex requirements manage it! Fortunately my needs are usually simple, just the classics (piano, Hammond, Rhodes, etc.)

 

BTW, all the software pianos I tried sounded great in the studio and on recordings, but weren't quite penetrating enough for live use with a loud blues band. (Pianoteq, TruePiano, and various sampled pianos I'd collected.) I've heard that can be true even for many of the top dogs like Ivory. The S90ES is particularly penetrating, and works a lot better as a stage piano for a loud band than any really realistic sounding piano would. Roland FP4 and FP7 strike me that way too. However, the variety and flexibility of a computer can't be beat. You can find a honky-tonk piano or an old upright or whatever, and of course all the softsynth virtual analogs. Think of all the time you could waste with those!

[JeffLearman]

The last keyboard I got was CP4, which has great action & sounds but limited flexibility. I figured that in a few years I'll be adding a tablet to my rig for flexibility and new sounds.

[Jefsong]

BTW, all the software pianos I tried sounded great in the studio and on recordings, but weren't quite penetrating enough for live use with a loud blues band. (Pianoteq, TruePiano, and various sampled pianos I'd collected.) I've heard that can be true even for many of the top dogs like Ivory. The S90ES is particularly penetrating, and works a lot better as a stage piano for a loud band than any really realistic sounding piano would.

 

This is so true. I own PianoTeq and Truepiano and they just can't cut through.

[Markay]

BTW, all the software pianos I tried sounded great in the studio and on recordings, but weren't quite penetrating enough for live use with a loud blues band. (Pianoteq, TruePiano, and various sampled pianos I'd collected.) I've heard that can be true even for many of the top dogs like Ivory. The S90ES is particularly penetrating, and works a lot better as a stage piano for a loud band than any really realistic sounding piano would.

 

This is so true. I own PianoTeq and Truepiano and they just can't cut through.

 

Not my experience, I have just finished listening to the audio from a corporate 200 pax Xmas gig we did last night and Pianoteq (tweaked YC5) cut through in every song including sitting in the mix in a SHA guitar fest. Sounds as good - better IMO - than the Nord stage being used in an adjacent room based on what I heard of that band during our breaks.

[Doerfler]

The S90ES is particularly penetrating, and works a lot better as a stage piano for a loud band than any really realistic sounding piano would.

 

IIRC, The Who had a Yamaha S90ES on stage when they played halftime at the Super Bowl in 2010. The Who were always loud. That being said, the newest version of Pianoteq is much, much better than a few years ago and can kick some butt now when needed.

Try the free trial and see (or not) for yourself.

[Reezekeys]

Most hardware pianos use very dry and close-miked samples. Software pianos are more varied with many sample sets that include ambience - room sound or sympathetic resonances, things that can muddy the sound on a live gig but add to the realism of a studio recording. My old NI "New York" piano has very close - miked samples and sounds great live, IMHO of course.

[CaptainUnderpant]

Happy holidays everyone. Once again its the end of the year and I'm thinking about switching up my live rig (which currently consists of Yamaha s90ES + Hammond SK2). It seems every year I think I am going to make the switch to Laptop/VST and somehow be happier. My biggest hurdle to get over is the fact that I MUST have a weighted 88 for piano. And If I am lugging a weighted 88 I might as well just use the onboard sounds. Less gear to bring and less possible hickups. I do like the s90ES piano but would like to have some other piano options. On the other hand lugging heavy gear around is becoming less appealing. I have searched and searched but I have not found a decent weighted 88 controller that isn't almost as much as a workstation. Also I haven't quite heard any VST's for Rhodes & Wurly that are much better than my S90ES.

 

So for you guys that are using Laptop/VST setups, how are you getting along? Are there VSTs out there are really amazing that I may not be aware of? For me I need Piano, Rhodes, Clav, strings mostly. I am happy with the SK2 for organ and its plenty lightweight.

Based upon your needs, I would stick with Hardware. Yes you might get a slightly better piano sound from a Software piano, The yamaha Rhodes is probably just as good as software and you have the Hammond for Organ. There is no reason to go Software. Now if you played in an 80's cover band and really needed to nail some of the unique synth parts from that era, or were in a tribute band and needed a large palate of exacting sounds, then software is the way to go for flexibility. And I am a software only guy that uses a S90XS as my bottom controller.

 

That is my 2 cents.....

[SteveQB]

I have just gone back to an all hardware rig after using a predominantly VST setup with my last band (Windows laptop running cantabile). I am finding the hardware rig much easier to live with on stage and just less of a worry. I accept that some of this is probably down to the need to programme a vst rig more than a hardware rig and my lack of skill meant forever tweaking bits whilst on stage to get the balance of sound right. I also, like others, could never get a vst piano to cut through (the one in the JV2080 was just much better).

 

I am considering introducing mainstage soon as a third sound source. But this will be limited to sounds I can't get from the Nord or FA-06