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The Grey Album


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Hey All,

 

If this is a moral argument, let's get this straight. Intellectual property law, like all property law protects whoever OWNS the property, not whoever creates it. That's what's wrong with it. There are a whole class of owners of intellectual property who are essentially parasites on the creative work of undercompensated artists.

 

Artists should be able to make a living, but intellectual property was not designed to hinder creativity and limit expression. If we're talking about what SHOULD happen, artists' work SHOULD enter the public domain within a couple decades of original release, and copyrights should not be transferrable to corporations. That would guarantee a flood of new content (since corporations couldn't rely on the same tired trademarks decade after decade), it would keep good artists employed and under contract (since their work could "leave with them") and it would make sure the artist gets paid.

 

In music, fair use law also need to be expanded to include artistic sampling and use for educational purposes.

 

Will all this happen? Not likely without a organized collective action, but that doesn't change the right and wrong of it.

 

If it's a legal argument, then of course DangerMouse is breaking the law. No question. So did I when I downloaded the recording to listen to it.

 

Though, since I already own the Beatles' White Album, I'm not in fact depriving them of income by listening to the Grey Album. Another case where the law is stupid.

 

That said, I loved the concept behind the Grey Album and found the execution wanting. A few of the tracks really kick, but most aren't all that great to listen to. And I do like good DJ work. Jay-Z and the whole macho bullshit in mainstream rap I could do without.

 

Finally, please don't lay any silliness about "what if it was your work, JES?" I'm not a comercially successful musician, but I am a successful author in my field and my articles are taught at several universities every semester. I have yet to see a dime from that, and frankly, I'm fine with the arrangement. I draw income from other sources, and still manage to be motivated to write and publish work good enough for its market. So I know what I'm talking about.

 

--JES

 

PS -- Way to go on the Matrix stuff DJDM, that's super cool.

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Great post JES!

 

Originally posted by JES:

Though, since I already own the Beatles' White Album, I'm not in fact depriving them of income by listening to the Grey Album. Another case where the law is stupid.

That's an interesting idea. I bet most of us already own the White Album (I certainly do). Maybe something like this should be considered an 'expansion pack' and would require prior ownership of the other 2 albums in order to buy it, or else you have to buy them at the same time? ;)

 

But of course that would mean that the RIAA would have to move towards a software licensing model, when in reality what they want is to maintain the current arrangement where they get to pick and choose the best aspects of licensing vs. ownership without any responsibility toward committing to either one in order to avoid the aspects of each that they don't like.

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I can't help but laugh everytime I hear the critics of sampling go on about how there's no musical ability involved in utilizing and creating something new from previously recorded source material. If using sampled notes/chords/hits is not something "real musicians" do, I guess sample playback synths such as the Motif, Triton, K2600 and Fantom are not for "real musicians", only "mashers".
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Very interesting post JES. I'm not up on all the laws of this stuff, so I won't offer any opinion of it.

 

I hated Phish's white album on halloween. And I love Phish. I thought the vocals sucked.

 

What musical talent do you have to have to "mash".

 

I didn't mean to flame earlier either. Sorry if it came off that way. I just prefer real musicians playing real instruments. IMHO, this electronic age is making interesting sounds, but lazier musicians.

If you don't wanna be nibbled, don't play with the bunny.

 

God created Eve and me, not Steve and me. - Adam

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22? You seem 12 at most. Well in 20 years, you'll be a sad pathetic old relic, barely able to press the mouse button on your broken down computer, listening to your old dangermouse mp3s, getting all teary eyed thinking about the olden days, mumbling "In my day, we didn't learn no instruments or write no songs, we did it the right way, taking other peoples hard work, and mashing them together!! These dumb punks today don't know what a good mash-up is. Where is today's dangermouse!?!
here is some of my work for you to critique zzzzzzzz... the entire track was synthesized from robert frosts voice reciting the first line of his poem "The Road Not Taken". In the middle I rearranged his words to say "I don't want to go". there is not a single "real" instrument on here... everything was invented using his voice.

call the cops.

 

this board won't let me link to my mp3 so go here:

 

jonesound

 

and click on the Two Roads mp3 on the first page.

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Originally posted by comfortat:

I hated Phish's white album on halloween. And I love Phish. I thought the vocals sucked.

Oh, come on, look at what they pulled off. The vocals weren't the high point, but they were mostly serviceable. Sounded like they didn't have great monitoring, you know how that can go. The instrumental parts were great. With the amount of people who have butchered 'Helter Skelter' over the years, it practically brought a tear to my eye to hear their version, it was so perfect. And they didn't wimp out and skip over anything. Nobody else even tries to pull off anything like this. And while I'm sure someone will say that's for a good reason ;) you have to consider also that it was done for Halloween as a musical 'costume'. At the least, it's a lot of fun.

 

 

Originally posted by comfortat:

What musical talent do you have to have to "mash".

Heh, well to avoid several steps it might be easier to ask for your definition of 'musical talent' :cool:
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Originally posted by Jeebus:

I can't help but laugh everytime I hear the critics of sampling go on about how there's no musical ability involved in utilizing and creating something new from previously recorded source material. If using sampled notes/chords/hits is not something "real musicians" do, I guess sample playback synths such as the Motif, Triton, K2600 and Fantom are not for "real musicians", only "mashers".

:D:thu:
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Olive,

 

Very nice (really), where are you playin so I can come watch you. Oh shoot, you can't duplicate that in concert can you?

 

That's what I mean by real musicians. I can watch them play and sing. No offense meant at all. I just prefer it. I love live music.

If you don't wanna be nibbled, don't play with the bunny.

 

God created Eve and me, not Steve and me. - Adam

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Originally posted by comfortat:

Olive,

 

Very nice (really), where are you playin so I can come watch you. Oh shoot, you can't duplicate that in concert can you?

 

That's what I mean by real musicians. I can watch them play and sing. No offense meant at all. I just prefer it. I love live music.

thanks for the compliment but duplicating something like this in a live setting was/is never the point. the beatles didn't even play live the last few years at all really right? do you think they could duplicate half of what was on the white album or sgt. peppers live? of course not.

having said that, i can(and do) perform this song live. no, it's not a duplication but so what... i play the keyboard part, triggering the patch i made on a laptop so it's pretty damn close. also, we do it with a live drummer.

 

i very much consider myself a "real" musician.

 

wanna talk theory??

;)

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No, you obviously understand it way better than me. What I meant was (I haven't expressed my self well here) I like the sound of a guitar player going off on his own stuff, watching a guy reach up to the deep end on his bass, etc.

 

I admit I had no idea what you guys were talking about when I joined the thread here. I'm impressed. I'm not saying yer not a real musician. What I mean is I like "true" instrument sounds. The electronic sound is nice, just haven't heard any that grabbed me yet. Yours is the first I heard that I liked. Thanks for enlightening me!

 

Post when you make more, I'll definitely check it out. I have a young friend (actually my son's friend) that I talked to about this stuff. He plays the guitar, and he said he has several friends that are doing yer kind of stuff. After he explained a few things he knew about it, I appreciated it even more. Sorry if I sounded negative before.

 

Peace :thu:

If you don't wanna be nibbled, don't play with the bunny.

 

God created Eve and me, not Steve and me. - Adam

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no offense... i also play jazz guitar so i'm used to getting into this kind of stuff with old timer jazz purists. remember, there was a time that any amplified instrument wasn't taken too highly to. same goes for multi-tracking/distortion etc...

 

-josh.

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Ummm...I know the site where you can click on each song, one at a time, to listen via windows mediaplayer. What I want to know is where I can listen or burn the record so I can listen in one sitting. I'm not a 'rip and burn' guy, never done it, so please explain if necessary. Am I missing something ? Thanks.
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Josh,

 

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. I bet they thought Les Paul was the anti-christ. ;)

 

I did not care for the mashing of one song with another of a different kind however. Your's seems to be original material. Tell me more about it.

 

- Andy

If you don't wanna be nibbled, don't play with the bunny.

 

God created Eve and me, not Steve and me. - Adam

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Well, since I'm a cat, I'm all for the idea, mixing samples and stuff.

 

But when I listened to a few tracks, I was unpleasantly surprised. It sounds kind of shitty.

 

so if I were the beatles (and for the record I'm not), I wouldn't be pissed cause he stole my music, i'd be pissed cause he turned my music into something shitty. Could have been done a lot better.

Dooby Dooby Doo
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Originally posted by shikawkee:

Ummm...I know the site where you can click on each song, one at a time, to listen via windows mediaplayer. What I want to know is where I can listen or burn the record so I can listen in one sitting. I'm not a 'rip and burn' guy, never done it, so please explain if necessary. Am I missing something ? Thanks.

If it's the site that I posted in the first post, I think what you can do is R-click. Then I think it gives you an option to download it or save it or something like that.

 

I listened to it, but wasn't totally into it, so I decided not to download it. I remember the groove that DJ Danger Mouse created out of "While My Guitar Gently Weeps" to be my favorite bit out of the whole thing, but was underwhelmed by it as a whole (part of that is because I am not a huge Jay-Z fan). I listened to almost all of it in one sitting while working on a web site for someone, which was kinda fun to do.

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Originally posted by oliveloafe:

22? You seem 12 at most. Well in 20 years, you'll be a sad pathetic old relic, barely able to press the mouse button on your broken down computer, listening to your old dangermouse mp3s, getting all teary eyed thinking about the olden days, mumbling "In my day, we didn't learn no instruments or write no songs, we did it the right way, taking other peoples hard work, and mashing them together!! These dumb punks today don't know what a good mash-up is. Where is today's dangermouse!?!
here is some of my work for you to critique zzzzzzzz... the entire track was synthesized from robert frosts voice reciting the first line of his poem "The Road Not Taken". In the middle I rearranged his words to say "I don't want to go". there is not a single "real" instrument on here... everything was invented using his voice.

call the cops.

 

this board won't let me link to my mp3 so go here:

 

jonesound

 

and click on the Two Roads mp3 on the first page.

Hey, you inspired me. Check out some of my music!

 

http://www.megaone.com/djzzzzzz/

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Originally posted by comfortat:

I didn't mean to flame earlier either. Sorry if it came off that way. I just prefer real musicians playing real instruments. IMHO, this electronic age is making interesting sounds, but lazier musicians.

I have a degree in music, with an emphasis in jazz theory and improvisation-thus falling into the "real musician playing real instruments" group :rolleyes: , but I really get ticked off by this argument. Where does anyone have the right to say that playing "real" instruments by "real musicians" is better than mashups/dj-ing/etc?

 

last I checked, Green Day play their own instruments and write their own music. As does Jet. Does that make them better than BT? (Ok so BT is a good musician, but in this sense, he doesn't simply play real instruments live). If BT dj's on occasion, does it de-value his musicianship? This diatribe isn't aimed at you, personally comfortat, but I jsut get a sour taste in my mouth when people discount music that they aren't familiar with.

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zzzzz...

that's pretty funny but since i take myself too seriously and am a real musician... i'll have you sued by the end of this song.

 

comfortat...

yeah, im doing original music with unusual samples as the source material... different than a mash or whatever. it's an interesting compositional technique that i like to use sometimes... taking spoken text(or anything really) and using that as the inspiration and the sole sound-source. i think of it kinda like program music... in my mind i envision a crossroads of sorts while listening to that song and my interpretation is that robert frost or whoever is actually dreading taking the road less traveled.

there are lots of artists doing things like this besides me, aphex twin is one that comes to mind that you might wanna check out in you're interested in hearing more.

there's also a really fantastic article by wendy carlos talking about unutilized/wasted tools of the composer these days... i'll look and see if i can find it online somewhere.

-josh.

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Originally posted by dahkter:

Yup,

I personally enjoy creating and listening to sample collage type music, if you made one track with samples from five different bands, and it works nicely together, is new and funky, I'd like to hear it.

But the moral argument/reality is definitely on point and cannot be countered...

So I guess less Acid, more synthesizers for a cleaner conscious....

Spam alert:

 

How's about Barry White and NWA? (d-mix 1) (there's a bunch of little snippets of other shit in there, too)

 

http://home.earthlink.net/~strangersound/dwhome.html

 

(Promotional use only) :)

 

And I think this is going to be the future of music. There is a whole world of sounds just waiting to be combined and re-interpreted.

 

The above is only one of a few wacked out things I've come up with.

Twisted Sister and Lipps Inc is my current work in progress. :)

Janis Joplin and Motley Crue, anyone?

 

For the record, I've played guitar and drums for many years. I'm a fan of organic music as much as the next guy. But, it's all been done. Why not take the best of what's out there and create something new and interesting?

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Sorry, I got here late. And I know you are all anxious to hear what my opinion is on this thing... :bor::cool:

 

Okay....now I've listen to about half the album and I'm prepared to comment.

 

Originally posted by shniggens:

I think the analogy you were looking for would be -

 

Take the Mona Lisa (painting), and let my 3 year old neice finger paint all over it.

 

Some things are just better off left alone.

Andy Warhol did his thing. What's the difference?

 

Originally posted by oliveloafe:

that REAL musician arguement is so very tired, i would like to see you try to do something like this.

Not really. Being able to manipulate sounds in software DOES NOT make you a musician.

 

DJ's are people who spin music for people. And they have always come up with creative ways to do it. It's like a bartender.

Bartenders serve drinks, but they don't make the alcohol they serve. They might mix new and interesting drinks. They might do those little ' bottle flip things' like Tom Cruze in Cocktails....but even though that takes skill, it still doesn't make you the same as the people who made the alcohol that you are serving. It just doesn't.

 

I see this Grey Album thing as "fan art" plain and simple. It's 'layered media'. Part of the media deluge we are all swimming in.

With as much sound out there as there is, it's just a matter of time before someone says; "I wonder what it would sound like if Jay Z rapped over the Beatles?". That's what happend.

 

As far as copyrights go. I say, follow your creativity FIRST, and worry about the laws later.

 

To the artists who don't want their music fucked with, I say, don't release your music to the public. If you do, don't complain when someone becomes inspired by something you created.

 

Whether or not DJ Danger Mouse's (hey cool initials....DJDM....sounds like someone I know! :thu: ) little collection is good art or bad art is in the ear of the be-hear-er. Personally, it gave me a headache. But then again, I hate Rap with jerky beats and the rapper is always yelling. Very fatiguing.

 

By the way. I wonder if the people who hold the copyright for the Danger Mouse cartoon are talking to their lawyers??? :D

Super 8

 

Hear my stuff here

 

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Originally posted by eljefe:

I'm sorry to say this, but you've been so busy arguing with each other that you've completely missed the real issue:

 

Why "The Grey Album" instead of "The Gray Album"?

I may just be a cat, and not a particularly good speller (I'm also not Billy Shears for that matter :) ), but even I know that they're both valid spellings!
Dooby Dooby Doo
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