The Grammys: ridiculous.

[DallasPA]

Hound Dog,

 

If you read my original post you will understand, that in just about every post this cat makes he goes out of his way to degrade black artist. And in reading my original post I stated that I have had numerous though polite run ins with him concerning this issue it is nothing new.

 

If everytime someone has to make an opinion, they feel that its necessary to degrade artist of another race, yes I will classify him and anyone else who acts out like that a racist.

 

And the funniest thing about racist, they never think they or they're comrades that have these same character flaws are racist!!!

 

Dallas

[Franknputer]

Hmm...perhaps I would amend my earlier comments...? I don't know Max, & I have no idea of his posting history, but I did see people being so quick to get offended by what he said that they were misquoting & making inferences about his comments, and that didn't seem fair nor useful. Racist or not - and I have NO USE for racists, believe me - it hurts your own case if you can't keep it together when responding.

 

Oh - and congrats to OutKast. I think they've been a rare commodity in rap.

[Nawledge]

I wasn't going to say anything, people like Max are a blessing in disguise, they live in fear and let you know that they are afraid but....

 

the detrators are the ones you have to watch, the ones who try to offend people from a defensive position, they are much more clever and hide their

disdain for others in subtle, clouded justifications.

 

HoundDog forget about Dallas's comments, Maxs comments speak for themselves, and you defend them

on what basis? the funniest thing about this comment is that he leads it with "I don't permeate

it with racist overtones", and then follows with

!#@%& racist overtones.

 

Originally posted by Max Ventura:

 

When I use a sentence like "Black music" I don't permeate it with racist overtones as you seem to imply. I don't like R&B, neither modern nor Motown, don't like gangsta rap, nor hip hop, nor funk, nor soul, nor jazz, nor linked genres, and as far as I know, that comprise more or less the whole of black music, born and bred within black culture.

Max saying you don't like black music is like saying you don't like black sports, besides everybody loves Elvis.

[DallasPA]

Well Christopher,

 

I wasn't trying to make a case, it was more like putting a stop to. Personally I don't feel as if I have mis-quoted his statements. I paraphrased what I could recall and posted quotes and links to prove my point. And personally my responses were no where near as damaging as his rhetoric. My statements where directed at a person not at quote unquote Black Artist or Black Music.

 

Double standards, I bet I wouldn't last two seconds on this forum if I was slinging the same mud at your race, or maybe you are stating you would be just as tolerant with me if I was, I don't think so.

 

Dallas

[Geoff Grace]

I've always been ambivalent about the term "black music." On the one hand, it's very important to recognize the huge contributions that people of African American descent have made to music. On the other hand, this term is often used divisively; and I fear that it may actually help preserve segregation in our society.

 

On a personal level, I have spent a great deal of my life creating black music; but I am from European American descent. While working in this genre, most of my band mates/coworkers have been African American; but not all. Similarly, when making music outside of this genre, I have worked with ethnically diverse groups while creating Latin music, classical music, and rock. This demonstrates to me that no form of music is created in a vacuum and that thankfully, we are not a completely segregated society.

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[CP]

I don't like the term "Black music" either. There is music made by Black people and music made by White people, etc. There is music made by Black people that White people like and music made by White people that Black people like, etc. You get the point. I don't mean to leave any group out. Music is music. There are only two kinds of music: good music and bad music. I like most music. I don't listen to a record and say "Oh, that's Black music" or "That's white music". A person who does that is judging the music not by the actual music but the person or persons who are making the music. And therein lays the problem. He is judging music on race. How can anyone not see that?

[hmurchison]

Originally posted by Geoff Grace:

I've always been ambivalent about the term "black music." On the one hand, it's very important to recognize the huge contributions that people of African American descent have made to music. On the other hand, this term is often used divisively; and I fear that it may actually help preserve segregation in our society.

 

On a personal level, I have spent a great deal of my life creating black music; but I am from European American descent. While working in this genre, most of my band mates/coworkers have been African American; but not all. Similarly, when making music outside of this genre, I have worked with ethnically diverse groups while creating Latin music, classical music, and rock. This demonstrates to me that no form of music is created in a vacuum and that thankfully, we are not a completely segregated society.

 

Best,

 

Geoff

I don't think Max is racist but I think he has segregated his mind into what is "White" and what is "Black" and all things in between. I used to say the same thing but then common sense hit me and I realized that while certain ethnicities dominate some music forms ...music is for everyone. I hear young Blacks(I'm Black also) say Hip-Hop/Rap is Black Music all the time but most of those saying that aren't musicians and only "play" music on their CD players.

 

The best parts about Diversity are a free exchange of culture and ideas. Some are more open than others but hey if it feels good then do it baby.

[Empty Planet]

Originally posted by schmoron13:

 

...but if we can't decontextualize others' comments and then give diatribes on completely esoteric tangents, what's the point of this forum?!!!

 

 

.

[Nawledge]

thanks for the background dr.sound, I enjoy hearing about the experiences of what goes on behind the music and what it takes to make it work

[kylen]

Yeah cool dr.sound - it's harder than it looks when it works and easy to mess up if things are already fragile - he he. I liked the parts I liked and surfed during the parts I didn't. I do like the overall lack of MTV type production but I'm not MTV age anyway - he he did I just quote a stereo-type there ?

 

Also on the 'black' thing - well I think it's descriptive myself and I can hear a difference between black gospel/white gospel, black blues/white blues, jazz - actually I can't hear any difference there usually, rock seems colorblind to me too. I'm just talkin bout my own bad self here - noone else.

 

I ain't even sayin if I'm black or white - he he I like dried toast though...

[DWBass]

Originally posted by Max Ventura:

Oh, and to DW Bass:

Have a seat because I wish to become verbose about this issue:

 

I am sure that living in the USA makes you probably very sensitive to racist issues, but in the rest of the world people may not be as discerning as you are

No I will not take a seat Max!! Believe it or not, black folks know a racist when one comes his way! You can talk all the garbage you want but you just put yourself deeper in water my friend! An apology would be appropriate right about now! If none is offered, you have officially been brand a racist by me and I don't give a rats azz whether you care or not. So spare me any more long drawn out posts full of gibberish and rants! Your initial post started out well enough but then you intentionally added remarks about blacks and black music! What did that have to do with any technical aspects of the Grammy's??? Plain and simple.......racist inflection! Lastly, put the shoe on the other foot! If I had made comments regarding 'white music' in a negative light, I would have been blasted here!

 

Have a nice life.

[Franknputer]

Originally posted by DallasPA:

Well Christopher,

 

I wasn't trying to make a case, it was more like putting a stop to. Personally I don't feel as if I have mis-quoted his statements. I paraphrased what I could recall and posted quotes and links to prove my point. And personally my responses were no where near as damaging as his rhetoric. My statements where directed at a person not at quote unquote Black Artist or Black Music.

 

Double standards, I bet I wouldn't last two seconds on this forum if I was slinging the same mud at your race, or maybe you are stating you would be just as tolerant with me if I was, I don't think so.

 

Dallas

Well, Dallas - my original comment, and the ones I was referring to, were made before you posted anything. It was the later comments that made me come back to say that I might have to amend my statement a bit - but I still pointed out that people were so quick to anger that they misread & misrepresented what he actually said.

 

The 'black music' comment, ignorant as it was, was actually made in the context of complimenting Beyonce for her skills. Such a comment could be met with a bit more kindness, like 'if you liked that, then maybe you'd like this...' rather than attacking him for being a racist. Which approach do you think might actually have a chance of broadening his horizons a bit?

 

And, your accusations about a double standard are baseless. I think that getting too wrapped up in racial pride is silly, actually. One's race is a factor that you have absolutely no control over. I'm proud of the work that I've done, of the friends that I've made, the things that I've stood for. I'm neither proud nor ashamed of my skin color - and if that was the best attack you could lay on me, then that's pretty weak IMO, and I wouldn't get terribly offended by it because it would expose YOUR weakness, not mine.

[BP3]

Originally posted by dr.sound:

If you think I'm the only guy who feels this way ask another poster David Reitzas who has a couple of Grammys and an Emmy and ask his opinion of Ed.

I also have the highest regard for Ed and his work. I think the point I was making earlier was that Ed has to rely upon a good number of folks to do their jobs in order for him to be able to do his. Ed's crew includes a number of A2s (audio assistant engineers), FOH and monitor engineers. In the case of Celene Dion, the problem was likely at the monitor console, not in the truck with Ed.

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by dr.sound:

and then mix in 5.1.

I'm pretty sure that Randy Ezratty from Effanel did the 5.1 mix - I took him down a set of five S2-As and a subwoofer and set them up in Effanel's truck...

 

dB

ADAM Audio

[dr.sound]

David,

By no means was I saying Ed mixed it all. I did not have the time to post the other members of the crew. Here is a partial list of the crew from last year:

Ed Greene, Production Sound Mixer

Randy Ezratty, Production Sound Mixer

John Harris, Sound Mixer

Jay Vicari, Sound Mixer

Richard Maitland, Re-Recording Mixer

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by dr.sound:

By no means was I saying Ed mixed it all

I wasn't saying you were, Marti - I was just adding to your informative notes on the subject.

 

My apologies if that was unclear.

 

dB

[DallasPA]

Christopher,

 

I'm sorry that you took my response as an attack it was not intended as such. It was my opinion, and I still don't believe that if I made it a habit of releasing small subtle racial bombshells that it would be left unadressed. The Doublestandard pertains to anyone, and I repeat anyone, that has somehow convinced themselves that racial insensitivity is okay as long as it is dressed up and presented well.

 

I do have a little more of a diverse music background then I initially admited to, but I didnt thank it would play well for the task I had taken upon my self. But allow me to give you an analogy of what Max has been doing. Say you went to someones house for dinner and they baked this spectacular pie, it smelled good, and looked fantastic. Then just before you ate a piece a very credible source explained to you that the food preparer actually placed a teaspoon full a dog shit into all of his pies for consistency and body. Would you still eat it!!!!!!

 

Now that is my case in point. Max writes well, presents facts logically, but within this good/great post is a little bit of biased dog shit for lack of a better term. And after I've discovered it, it seems like some of you still want me to eat it. lol.

 

In fact what is racism? To me racism at its core is intolerance for either the people(Artist), ways, music, or culture of another race. And Max admits to this in one of his truely enlightening statements.

 

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Max Ventura:

 

When I use a sentence like "Black music" I don't permeate it with racist overtones as you seem to imply. I don't like R&B, neither modern nor Motown, don't like gangsta rap, nor hip hop, nor funk, nor soul, nor jazz, nor linked genres, and as far as I know, that comprise more or less the whole of black music, born and bred within black culture.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wow, that was a mouthful the part that really gets me is:

 

"and as far as I know, that comprise more or less the whole of black music, born and bred within black culture."

 

If you really dig what this cat is saying, he really doesnt like anything, and I mean anything, that is derived, an offshot, similar, or even reminds him of black music. See, it really starts to get deep when you start analyzing his mental fabric. And something deep down forced the inclusion of Black Culture into this whole thing. I can only speculate that this intolerance goes beyond just Black Music. In other words he really doesn't care for anything that reminds him of the Black Race. Once I again I am only speculating, but it makes sense. Why should his intolerance only stop at music.

 

 

As for the I really don't care for beyonce as a singer, but she deserves everything she gets cause shes a hard worker. Because it came from an individual like Max I am forced to process this as: I really don't care for that field slave, but she surrreee deserves some vitals (country talk for food) today cause shesa worked so hard. See Chris you cant divorce a statement from its source. Now certainly if it would have been you are almost anyone else on this forum I would not process it as such!!!!!!!

 

In closing, I don't always feel that tolerance is the answer, maybe I'm wrong. Who knows. What I will say is that slavery lasted for 400 years because Africans were to damn tolerant, and the whole entire world took advantage of it.

 

Dallas

[fantasticsound]

Originally posted by dr.sound:

My Reply is about the technical issues of the Grammys. Ed Greene did indeed do it again this year. I thought the difference was night and day in comparison to last years in NY. I worked with Ed for 7 years and saw what he does in tuff situations. There is no one better! I know that a lot of you out there expect a live performance sounding like a track, and a visual looking like MTV. We'll this is live for the most part, and how many groups performing? Add to that they are playing in front of their peers. It a hell of a lot of work, then add a 5 min delay because everyone doesn't want another Super Bowl half time and then mix in 5.1. I know that one of you has stated that the technical guys are picked because of friendship etc. Nothing could be further from the truth. You call out the guys who can do it Live and have done it hundreds of times, and people who have the chops who have worked with the heavy weights like Sinatra, Streisand and the list goes on. I was at United Western when Ed Greene was recording Sinatra. The band was ready and Frank walks in and sings Live, one take only. Have you got the chops to do that? Do you know who got Ed Greene into TV? It was Sinatra, who Ed mixed in a Special called "Old Blue Eyes is Back". That was the first Emmy Ed won. The total I believe now is around 18. Not to mention he gets 3 or so nominations each year from his peers for Ed's other fine work . To even say anything negative about his or any of the other guys out there is such crap.

If you think I'm the only guy who feels this way ask another poster David Reitzas who has a couple of Grammys and an Emmy and ask his opinion of Ed.

First, if I remember correctly, you said the same thing last year about the Grammy Awards show. Is Ed Greene and company the best thing since sliced bread or not? The quality of both this and last years shows was pathetic, by any standards. Don't throw his awards out for him to hide behind. The telecast sucked. Period.

 

Second, I know for a fact that as recently as a decade ago it was all about industry nepotism, as to who did what. One of my instructors, a man who'd recorded some well known recordings was one of those chosen to produce the show. While I respect his work in other areas, at live TV production he's out of his element, and it showed.

 

Third, go ahead and compare the Grammy's of the past 10 years to the Country Music Awards and other live awards telecasts. Others have just as many performances, yet none of the technical gaffs that are routing on the Grammy Award show. In fact, I was in the broadcast mixing room (Studio A of what was then TNN's side of the Grand Ole' Opry house) in 1995 when, after a literal week of 24/7 days to install a Neve Capricorn, the TNN and Opry engineering staff put on a flawless show.

 

There is no excuse for the technical garbage that passes as a Grammy Award show. If you want me to run it. Great! I know exactly who I'd call on to provide the support necessary for live mixers to do what they are supposed to do. Reinforce what's onstage and be personally invisible to the audience.

 

I won't argue further with you about Ed Greene, his accomplishments and awards, or the rest of the engineering staff for the Grammy's. I don't care to argue about the caliber of talent involved, only the results of their collective actions. Were I involved with this year's show I would have asked them to remove my name from the credits.

[kylen]

he he This is beginning to remind me of all my job interviews for the last year...

[DallasPA]

lol,

 

it is kinda funny war being waged on two fronts, this grammy sound thing is starting to get interesting.

 

Dallas

[skipclone 1]

Originally posted by Max Ventura:

As far as I know, black youths don't really salivate over Bonjovi, Pavarotti or death metal headbangers.

`As far as you know` fits perfectly. Sorry man, this is an amazingly presumptuous and ignorant comment. Ever hear of Hootie and the Blowfish? Kathleen Battle? Living Colour? King`s X? check em out.

[doc taz]

Uh-huh.

 

Originally posted by Max Ventura:

I am sure that living in the USA makes you probably very sensitive to racist issues, but in the rest of the world people may not be as discerning as you are. I don't think every morning about racism, I don't deal with it on a daily basis, and frankly, I don't care that much for the whole issue, since it doesn't really concern my life. What can I do? It just doesn't, it's not my fault. If you wish, I can point out at you at least 5 or 6 issues I deal with daily that I am extremely sensitive to, and you might count off how often you have neglected or thrashed them in your own life.

Yeah, right. I do believe people around the world are more discerning than you might think, including Italians. You probably think that racial issues only matter to people living in America. What a farce.

 

Originally posted by Max Ventura:

As far as I know, black youths don't really salivate over Bonjovi, Pavarotti or death metal headbangers.

Uhm, fine, but in my view, that's called being presumptuous. You haven't been to clubs here in America lately. Plenty of rock and classical shows have black folks in them, and people from other countries too. In fact, I was watching some video of live concert footage from a concert event from Sweden called Hultsfred, and the audiences for those shows are diverse. The Opeth show had some black and Asian folks in the audience, as well as the usual Swedish crowd.

[skipclone 1]

this guy should be in politics!

[doc taz]

Originally posted by skipclone 1:

this guy should be in politics!

http://home.t-online.de/home/a.schellschmidt/taxi4.jpg

"You talkin' to me?" ;]

[Jeebus]

Originally posted by Dave Bryce:

Originally posted by dr.sound:

and then mix in 5.1.

I'm pretty sure that Randy Ezratty from Effanel did the 5.1 mix - I took him down a set of five S2-As and a subwoofer and set them up in Effanel's truck...

 

dB

ADAM Audio

SPAM

[fantasticsound]

Originally posted by dr.sound:

Neil,

I do remember your post from last year.

First

If you know anything about the man you would know he is the most humble person in the business. I didn't say it was "flawless" or even anything close to that. I said it was "night and day" better. Last years wasn't great. This year's was better.[/QB]

It's been 46 years of Grammy's, right? They're long overdue for a really great awards show. If not flawless, I'd settle for near flawless. Why only this show, year after year?

 

Frankly, I don't care how humble the man is. I care that the flagship awards show of the recording industry is routinely filled with technical gaffs. I'm mystified why you defend mediocrity, regardless of the credentials of those responsible. I adore Dustin Hoffman and think he's as good an actor as anyone alive, but I certainly wouldn't defend his acting in Ishtar. Not even a great performance in a POS movie.

 

Originally posted by dr.sound:

Second

So a decade ago a person you knew (who by your own choosing will go nameless) was supposedly chosen to Produce the show. Name him...

Sorry. Not taking the bait. Suffice it to say you don't believe me but I know it is fact. Many others who had no place in a live broadcast were routinely in charge of various aspects of Grammy shows during the tenure of the other Mr. Greene. Believe what you wish.

 

Originally posted by dr.sound:

Neill, you are so out of it with your comments. Other than asking for the gig yourself, who else is left? You stepped on everyone around. The comments you made above is based on what you perceive not by any fact! If you want another example of Ed's mixes how about the opening ceremonies of the Olympics? That was flawless!!!

Stepped on all the names, did I? How about hiring the folks at CBS and the Opry who run the CMA Award shows? You seem to forget how many other award shows are relatively error free. If Mr. Greene has mixed any of these other shows, then I'd like him to approach the Grammy Awards with the same team and attention to detail he brought to other productions. Is that really asking too much? You mention the Olympics. If Mr. Greene was responsible for the wonderful opening ceremonies, how about giving us one Grammy Award show of that caliber? Surely the opening ceremonies of the Olympic games were more difficult to produce, from logistics of people, to sound reinforcement at the venue, to the massive requirements of the broadcast. So again, the question is, "Why does the Grammy Award show routinely fall short of the results he achieved at the Olympics?"

 

Originally posted by dr.sound:

Now, get off the computer and mix something. How do you have ANY time when you have 6004 posts? Get off your sofa and get to work. Post what the hell you have done and let us all comment on how smooth your broadcast went. I am not asking for you to like everything you hear, just don't post crap in this Forum. As for your comments about "Post Production Studio People", I know better than getting into "Live Sound". It's not my thing. Now if you want to talk "Post" or better "Re-Recording" bring it on!

LOL. Attack me all you want. Doesn't bother me in the least. I know what I'm capable of and though I'm no Vladimir Horowitz, I sure as heck know a pianist isn't playing well. (See how PC I put that. )

 

I hope you realize these posts, year after year, are not intended to insult. Really. I just want those representing our entire industry to put on a great show. It's embarrassing. I haven't seen one yet, from the Grammy's. Have you?

[dayvel]

Those sound people might be great guys and all but that doesn't change the fact that they totally screwed up the sound. We're not talking about little slip ups but pumping horrible distorted garbage out on the airwaves for most of the show.

[fantasticsound]

And I was beginning to think I was the only one who noticed.

 

The funny thing is, when I graduated from school, this same teacher I mentioned previously was the one who pointed out that most of the engineers working network television audio were old school people who hadn't a clue what to do with stereo when it was made available to them. He predicted there would be lots of need for new talent as stereo broadcasts evolved. While that may be the case, those old hands knew how to put sound up under virtually any conditions. I'd take a well done, mono broadcast over a poorly mixed stereo or 5.1 broadcast every time.

[dayvel]

My favorite part of the show was when Celine Dion ripped out her earpiece and just sang. Don't like her music much, but what a pro. Alicia Keyes doesn't have that skill level though, she didn't have a chance; I felt sorry for her. It's not cool when some sound guy makes you look like an idiot on national TV. Especially not on the Grammies.

[fantasticsound]

Originally posted by dr.sound:

Neil,

I'm so sorry to have taken up your valuable time. This is the last post I'll make now. Oh, and by the way, what was your last name and credits?

Because...??

 

(You don't need to be a rocket scientist to judge the success of a rocket that blows up. I'm not trying to say why the rocket blew up. Only that those involved ought to get it right next time. They've only had 46 years to figure it out. But I'm sure you don't have opinions on the economy, whether we should be at war, the current or former presidents' success at the job, etc. You can't. Unless you've been an economist, a general, or a president. So no, I won't dignify your attempted insult with a list of credits. Take it however you wish. )