Soloing over odd meters, practice tips?

[zephonic]

I got a gig coming up with pretty involved material, just three weeks away, and one of the tunes is in 7/8 with a keyboard solo. Being the lazy bum that I am I never practiced improvising/soloing over odd meters and need to learn how to pronto. Trying not to panic.

 

Anybody got any tips on how to achieve this within the time window?

Thanks.

 

[timwat]

Three ideas: Use LH ostinato, subdivide as 4&3, stay with one "clave" pattern throughout.

 

I listened to a lot of odd meter for about two years (a lot of Bruford's Earthworks) and that helped me internalize odd grooves. But for a while I sounded pretty mechanical.

 

Don't know if that helps you at all.

[Redknife]

Mini-tip: Warm up with Hannon dropping the 8th note of the pattern.

[J. Dan]

A long time ago I did Rush "Subdivisions" which has lots of 7/8 in it. If you want to keep your foot tapping, tap in 4, alternate upbeat vs downbeat every other measure and you can keep your foot tapping steadily

[Jim Alfredson]

The best method I know is to internalize the time by repeated listenings (without playing). Listen over and over again until it becomes second nature. Then start soloing over it.

[Griffinator]

I dealt with this problem by just composing my solo for the part (in my case a 9/8).

[Reezekeys]

This is one thing that sequencers are definitely good for. Program the solo section part, minus your solo, then put it on a loop.

[JohnnyB3]

Time Continuum Kai Eckhardt

https://truefire.com/bass-guitar-lessons/atomic-bass-time-continuum/c695

 

Konnakol is a South Indian rhythm language developed for the Mridangam, a traditional South Indian hand drum. Because of its percussive nature, Konnakol is a far superior counting methodology than anything developed in the West.

 

This is for bass but the counting system applies for any instrument. (A good organ player is a good bass player anyway.)

 

This would take longer than 3 weeks of course but he goes through a bunch of odd meters including 7/4. Not sure how to convert that to 7/8 but if you go 'TA-KI-TA' (3) then 'TA-KA-DI-MI' (4): 'TA-KI-TA-TA-KA-DI-MI' that gets you to feel 7. Keep doing that and try improvising while saying it. I just started going though it...

 

Good luck!

[MorayM]

The best method I know is to internalize the time by repeated listenings (without playing). Listen over and over again until it becomes second nature. Then start soloing over it.

 

This is how I do it. Keep listening to get the groove in your head, until it's as natural as 4/4.

 

If I'm actively developing a solo rather than pure improvisation, (for a recording say) I might occasionally program the basic drum/bass groove to experiment with, but it's no substitute for just listening.

[Analogaddict]

Listen to "Ten Summoners' Tales" by Sting. Loads of tasty soloing in both 5/4 and 7/8 by Dominic Miller and David Sanctious. The album after that ("Mercury Falling"?) has some 9/8 work.

[MorayM]

Mini-tip: Warm up with Hannon dropping the 8th note of the pattern.

 

I'm not so sure about this one, it depends what you're soloing against. The problem I have with a lot of 7/8 stuff is that it either feels like the composer wrote a 4/4 groove and dropped a half-beat, or wrote a 3/4 groove and added an extra half-beat. Both feel clunky.

 

Listen to a groove like Money, which could only work in 7, and the sax solo Dick Parry plays against it at 2:00:

 

[video:youtube]

 

or (shameless plug alert) these guitar solos at 3:40 and 10:00 over another couple of grooves that could only work in 7:

 

[video:youtube]

[Spider76]

The best method I know is to internalize the time by repeated listenings (without playing). Listen over and over again until it becomes second nature. Then start soloing over it.

 

This. Again and again.

 

The problem with odd meters is not the meter itself, is just that we're not used to it.

We Westerners are so limited in our rhythmic ideas that we can basically "think" only in 4/4 or 3/4, or some very basic variations of these (6/8, 12/8...).

Just listen to any Balkan, Indian, Kletzmer music, and you'll discover how musical odd meters can be.

 

Having said that, 3 weeks is not so much time, but try to listen as much as you can to the song (while driving to work, while at the gym, in any free moment) until you internalize the meter, until it doesn't feel "weird" to you anymore.

That will be much more useful than practicing hectically while unnaturally forcing you to count in funny ways, playing "doing the maths" will always feel unnatural and mechanic, to both you and the audience.

 

And of course, while soloing KEEP IT SIMPLE. No sense in trying to overdo something you don't feel completely comfortable with.

Simple, melodic, singing lines always get the job done, with odd meters as well as (or maybe better than) with 4/4.

 

Good luck with it, and welcome to Odd Meter County, I'm sure you'll enjoy this new unexplored rhythm planet!

[Spider76]

The problem I have with a lot of 7/8 stuff is that it either feels like the composer wrote a 4/4 groove and dropped a half-beat, or wrote a 3/4 groove and added an extra half-beat. Both feel clunky.

 

This is SO true!

And the result is pure maths, and zero music.

 

On the other hand, listen to this song in 5/4. The sax solo from 1:20 to 3:40 almost makes me weep. It "sings" so good that you easily forget it's an odd meter, and just get lost in the melody.

[video:youtube]

 

(DISCLAIMER: I know that's not a fair example, McCandless is so gifted for melodic lines, he could make even a broken bottle in 13/9ths sing like Maria Callas. Wish I had 0.001% of his talent)

 

One trick I was taught by a drummer very good at odd meters: if you're playing in, say, 7/8, NEVER count "3 and a half". That will ALWAYS feel mechanical and clunky.

Listen hard to the song, and understand where the strong beat is. Think in 8ths, not in quarters.

 

There are so many options with odd meters, 2+2+2+1 ("three and a half") is not used much and it sounds like a limping grasshopper anyway. 3+3+1 is even worse.

(of course, these are also the patterns most used by those who don't understand 7/8. )

 

Try to see if your song has a 3+2+2, 2+3+2 or 2+2+3 pattern. These sound great, have a real swing to them, and are easy to listen and play along.

 

But as I told, do this only at the very beginning, to try to sort out what's happening in your song. Once you got the basics sorted out, stop counting and just listen, listen and listen.

 

Until you go back to 4/4 and feel there's something wrong and boring with even meters...

[cleomenesII]

You need to listen to people like Boris here

 

[video:youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cg2dcC611w

[marczellm]

If you have to develop your solo "pronto", I recommend this tiny trick: pick one or two rhythmic patterns in the given meter, such as (2+2)+(2+1)+(2+1) in 5/4 and play a number of simple melodies with the same rhythm.

[Al Coda]

... one of the tunes is in 7/8 with a keyboard solo. Being the lazy bum that I am I never practiced improvising/soloing over odd meters and need to learn how to pronto.

 

When you never did it before "learn how to pronto" is not so easy.

Jim Alfredson already had the correct answer above, but you don´t have enough time eventually.

I myself I listened to odd meters since age 16 when I became aware of Mahavishnu Orchestra and others,- and I practised.

I´d say, 7/8 throughout isn´t difficult,- mixed odd meters are much more difficult.

You have the lowest common denominator, then learn feeling the meter and play over it.

Players like Jan Hammer and/or balkan folk musicians never count and play the most complex s##t like we do in 4/4.

 

But when you have only one tune in 7/8 w/ a solo, the last chance might be constructing an interesting solo, then learn and play it on that gig.

 

A.C.

 

 

[I-missRichardTee]

I do not play 5/4 often and never in 7. For 5, I find a steady left hand groove helps.

I borrowed from Dave Brubeck ( pioneer in this ) and his playing on Take Five.

I agree with all suggestions above, but time and anxiety are big factors.

As Coda and Alfredson said listen everyday to one song in 7 that closely matches up with your song. No mention has been made of the harmonic rhythm. This is important, your left hand is presumably comping? So Make left hand very repetitious. One rhythm that you can manage to make feel good.

Then write out the solo and put the left hand comping groove ( simple and repetitious with no variation ) with your preconceived solo.

What kind of harmonic rhythm is involved, two chords per bar? Vamp?

Edit I just listened to "money" by Pink.. I could not solo over that song without considerable prep. The first thing that comes to my mind is what I said about a firm repetitious left hand comping loop over one bar. Maybe 2 bars, but I do not know the tempo etc harmonic rhythm. In any case

1 Listen daily

3 write the solo

3 find the comping thing, & make it groove.

4 mix it all together

5 in prep, do not dare "get loose" and try to actually improvise.. you will be courting train wreck ( getting lost )

and especially on the performance night. Stick to the script you wrote out.

6 Failing the written out solo, at the very least you must do #3, you must at least create a little repetitious comping loop, such as Brubeck does on Take Five. You MUST.

Then perhaps assuming you are feeling where one is, you could try a minimalist solo.. a few notes ( like Count Basie is famous for ) then just the comping. a few notes, then just the comping. Ask the drummer to help as if you and he are collaborating during your solo.

ODDS are highly unlikely you will be comfortable with this... do not be fooled into thinking otherwise. I am still not comfortable with Take Five!

[I-missRichardTee]

[video:youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDB4K5zCcfk

[I-missRichardTee]

[video:youtube]

 

I think there should be something here you can adapt as far comping

 

if you can record this and then slow it down that may also help

But marinate your ear in 7.

The Intro of this version of Sleigh Ride, seems like a place to grab a comping groove.

[Doug White]

subdivide as 4&3

 

This is going to be the most pronto way, in my opinion. it could be that is 3&4, depends on the feel of the tune.

 

Get use to counting out that feel in you head. Tap it out in time & count:

 

1 . 2 . 3 . 4 . 1 . 2 . 3

 

or

 

1 . 2 . 3 . 1 . 2 . 3 . 4

 

Driving in the car, at work .. where ever.

 

Take Five, to me at least, feels like 3&2, not 2&3. So I count it out 1 . 2 . 3 . 1 . 2.

[Redknife]

Mini-tip: Warm up with Hannon dropping the 8th note of the pattern.

 

I'm not so sure about this one, it depends what you're soloing against.

 

 

I see your point and I am not disagreeing with the overall sentiment that listening time is critical especially for a player that is experienced but entering a new musical space.

I'll add some more words around my suggestion so that it may (or may not) be more helpful to the OP.

 

The gig is not far away. Listening is critical and practice of the particular song is also critical. And.... shedding time is helpful. My verbal phrasing of dropping of the 8th note of the musical phrase was meant to efficiently convey the exercise rather than create a construct where 7/8 is 8 beat light/truncated. Once I got into the exercise, I did not find that it felt truncated or unnatural. At first, sure.

 

More details - in several of the Hannon exercises you will find that constructing the 7 note pattern creates a repeated note end-phrase to start-phrase. You can embrace that or make a slight pattern alteration. You can add accents to make a 4 + 3 or 2+2+3 emphasis. Once the 7/8 pattern with and without dominant accents are feeling natural, you can change the accent pattern from the obvious to start accenting in space rather than outlining the space.

If you don't like the Hannon deal, make another pattern. I am not a "pattern player" in solos, but I will assert that physical and mental exercises liberate solos.

 

Magically, Western scales are comprised of 7 repeating notes. Start playing the scales with 7/8 in mind and it is actually more natural than the usual 4/4 mindset (reinforced by the number of octaves played).

 

Again, these suggestions are meant to comprise components in the realm of "practice tips".

[Tusker]

stay with one "clave" pattern throughout.

 

+1000

 

All complex patterns are built up from simpler ones. You cannot easily "deconstruct" these patterns. Switching from 4+3 to 3+4 in the middle of a solo (for example) is not going to help you, and it's going to confuse your audience. Instead, find a clave that works and use embellishments in note choice, harmonic substitutions, that sort of thing.

 

For practice, fire up a drum machine and woodshed until the patterns are in your body. Good luck!

[zephonic]

Thanks all for chiming in.

 

The tune in 7/8 also has a couple of bars in 6/8 and 4/4, but the soloing is done over 7/8 only. However, listening to the CD last night I learned that another tune is in 11/8, also with other meters, and it also features a keyboard solo.

 

Add the fact that I'll be going on vacation in the week before the gig, and I'm pretty busy with other stuff as well, I have to conclude I simply do not have enough time to make it work. So I decided to cancel.

 

It is a high-level fusion gig, great original material, and I don't want to ruin it. Bummer, as the other songs were challenging, but I believe I could have done it, were it not for the odd-meter soloing.

 

Well, at least I know now what to shed on! Thanks, guys.

 

 

[Annuello]

Here's another tricky one. Once I'm through the opening bars of 7/8, the 4/4 lulls me into a false sense of believing that I know what I'm doing, then *bam* a bar of 11/8 here, 3/8 there. A "kids tune" turns me into a blubbering mess in no time at all.

 

[video:youtube]

 

Annuello.

[Moonglow]

I'm in a wedding band that plays some Greek and Macedonian music, many of which are in 7/8 (e.g., kalamatiano). I grew up with these songs so it's second nature for me to to play this stuff. I enjoy it, a lot of harmonic minor scales involved. As others have suggested, my advice would be to immerse yourself in the music until it becomes natural.

[16251]

I'm in a wedding band that plays Greek and Macedonian music, many of which are in 7/8 (e.g., kalamatiano). I grew up with these songs so it's second nature for me to to play this stuff. I enjoy it, a lot of harmonic minor scales involved. As others have suggested, my advice would be to immerse yourself in the music until it becomes natural.

I was just listening to some 7/8 and 15/8 on YouTube. It seems there's always a trick to counting, to make it easier. Ok, but my question is, how to you get past counting so it's fun? It just sounds like you have to keep counting in your head and that's something I dislike.

[Moonglow]

I was just listening to some 7/8 and 15/8 on YouTube. It seems there's always a trick to counting, to make it easier. Ok, but my question is, how to you get past counting so it's fun? It just sounds like you have to keep counting in your head and that's something I dislike.

Yeah, I get that regarding the counting thing...I hate it too. I guess my point is that after you have played 7/8 for a while, you no longer have to think about it...just like you eventually didn't have to count when learning 4/4. Remember when you first took piano lessons how your teacher made you count everything "out loud" when you learned a song, but then you didn't need to do that after a while? Kind of the same thing here, although admittedly more challenging, probably due to not having a reference point. In the United States, music in 4/4 meter is ubiquitous, so it is much easier to acquire/internalize. Returning to the Macedonian/Greek music I spoke of, that stuff was played around my house a lot, and my dad's wedding band played it too. So when I learned to play it, I had already internalized it, could sing along with it, etc., which helped a lot. Just like 4/4, it's automatic now. Also...a bit of a disclaimer here...the music structure of those songs generally is not that complex, compared to playing a jazz fusion tune 7/8, for example. But I think the core learning/acquisition principles remain the same.

[I-missRichardTee]

I am wondering which other cultures have a healthy does of the "odd time" or asymmetrical music, besides Macedonian/Greek music?

Cuba, Puerto Rico, Africa, Japan, Romania, India, Balkans, etc?

[MAJUSCULE]

Tigran Hamasyan's music often pulls from Armenian folk music. He's got odd-time stuff all over the place, whether he's playing a folk tune or an original.

[zephonic]

Playing odd meters in itself is not hard. You can just learn the notes/patterns and play them as you have learned them.

 

It is improvising/soloing while keeping pocket in odd meters that is hard. That requires evolving your inner clock. That is hard. At least, to me it is.