music-man Posted December 18, 2001 Share Posted December 18, 2001 Here's a puzzle for those of you who like lo-budget challenges: I've got a Yamaha AW4416 - and I like it. A friend asked if I would record his band at a club early next month - he wants to take a stereo feed from the live board (I assume it will be the house mix), add room mikes, record, then mix it all together later on. If it all comes out crappy, it's not a big deal (it's a favor, not a paid gig). But I'd like a fighting chance at it not sounding like skint, and I'm curious ... I know this club will mic the Kick/Snare/Toms, but no overheads. They'll also run the bass through the house, and will mic the guitar cabs, and the keyboards. Assume I'm stuck with the 2-track house mix (I'm not sure they'll let me feed off of each channel ... which would seem ideal, although I'll check). As for the miking - some limitations here: I don't have a matched pair of mics to put up as stereo room mics. And I'm not so interested in the "fighting chance" that I'd shell out my own dough for rentals. So, between his mics and mine, we've got: AT 4047 AKG C3000 AKG C1000 AT dynamic Beta 57 Room info: As I remember, longer than wide, all hard surfaces, boomy sound and tin ceilings, with the stage sort of offset to the right (you walk by the stage to get to the john). Mixing desk is off to the right, thirty feet out. [The gig's at CBGB's, if that helps the New Yorkers out there.] Anyone done this? Should I expect the house mix to sound like crap? Is it worth putting up the room mics? If so, where? Random tips? Stories? tell tell. [Also, I'm a little worried about setting up the 4047 in a club, where it might get kicked over - it's the only decent mic I own. So if the room mics won't add much, I probably wouldn't.] Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frost Posted December 18, 2001 Share Posted December 18, 2001 I would take a board mix to two tracks. Put up a 3000 on one pa main (2 feet back) put up the 1000 on the other and put the 4047 center onstage. Mix to takse later. THis is gonna give you some of everything you definitely NEED without pissing off the house sound guy. If however the board has direct outs on each channel you could just take that plus a few roomm mics, time align later. Good luck Frost Matching pairs of mics would be nice tho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GZsound Posted December 18, 2001 Share Posted December 18, 2001 I don't know off hand how many inputs the Yamaha recorder has but I would at least take a two track mix off the board and augment it with the 3000 run direct (not off their board) into your Yamaha and placed about ten to fifteen feet in front of the stage. This way, you'll have a track with PA and stage sound. The very best would be if you can get a direct out of each channel of the board or maybe even some bus outs. I find that putting at least one large diaphragm condenser out from the mains direct to the recorder gives you a nice ability to mix it in with the PA mixer tracks. Mark G. "A man may fail many times, but he isn't a failure until he begins to blame others" -- John Burroughs "I consider ethics, as well as religion, as supplements to law in the government of man." -- Thomas Jefferson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strat0124 Posted December 18, 2001 Share Posted December 18, 2001 If the board has direct outs it might be a bit easier, I somehow doubt it. Also, if the vocals are sidechained you're gonna get a vocal heavy mix if you get a stereo mix. You might not believe this but the best overall live club recording I have was done with a portable dat and a stereo mic. Yeah it ain't Nashville, but its a good representation of the bands live sound, and its pretty balanced. Plus you don't have to tote a couple of thou worth of gear to record in a smoky bar. Down like a dollar comin up against a yen, doin pretty good for the shape I'm in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theom Posted December 19, 2001 Share Posted December 19, 2001 can you give up more info on your recorder and the house desk at the club? how many mic ins, line ins on the recorder and simultainious tracks can you record on the club desk: bus outs? how many? direct outs? how many? I agree with the coments above, a combination of room mics and direct chanel outs is the best for mixing down later. if it is a small club, board tapes end up sounding like vox and kickdrum only sometimes. because snare, guit amps and bass arent in the mix due to their natural loudness in the room. I have done many live recordings with adats 8 and 16 channel. If you only have 8 tracks try: 1, room mic 2,lick drum dir out 3.snare and toms (group out) 4 bass di out 5. guit di out (or group if there are 2 guits) 6, vox direct out 7, b vox dir out or group 8, drum overhead. eight ch af comps will really help too if you can get them. hope this helps theo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
surfjunkie Posted December 19, 2001 Share Posted December 19, 2001 did you know that CBGB's is [url=http://www.cbgb.com/studio.htm]wired to record[/url] ? if this thread had "CBGB's" in the subject, i bet someone could give you more info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted December 19, 2001 Share Posted December 19, 2001 Hey there, I have a Yamaha AW4416 also, and quite a bit of experience recording live gigs with it. First off, do you have either of the analog expansion boards on your AW? I have an MY8AD on mine, which gives me a total of 16 analog inputs as opposed to the 8 that are stock on the AW. What I did was to buy a couple of 8 channel unbalanced snakes, and when I do live recordings I insert the plugs halfway into the inserts on the house console (which doesn't have direct outs - it would be easier if it did but don't count on that for a club console). That way I can get a pre-fader signal from each of the mics that the house is using and each gets its own separate track, without any of the house sound man's fader moves or effects. Also, the club where I've done most of the recording has a couple of AKG C1000's on the ceiling which they use as room mics. I plug those straight into the AW when I'm recording. Although you don't have a "matched pair" of mics for room mics, I think it's worth using your C1000 and your C3000. If you can get there for sound check, try walking around and finding "sweet spots" on the sides of the stage and put them as high as possible overhead. The room mics particularly help to compensate for the lack of drum overheads. I roll most of the low end out of them and then add a bit of reverb and a bit of high-end EQ and they help replace the "presence" that is usually missing from live recordings, due to the fact that most of the mics used at clubs will be dynamic mics with a lot of bass proximity effect going on. That would be a drag if you had to use the house mix instead of being able to mix the separate tracks later, because the AW really does quite well in this context. It'd be great if you can work it out with the house sound man to be able to tap each separate mic off their console like I do. But, it could still sound halfway decent if you did use the house mix, particularly if you place the room mics well. Feel free to check back with other questions, because I'm sure you'll have some. :) --Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve LeBlanc Posted December 19, 2001 Share Posted December 19, 2001 [quote]did you know that CBGB's is wired to record?[/quote] $165.00 for a digital multitrack recording of your show engineered by someone who really knows the room....well...that seems really reasonable to me and a lot less trouble than trying to setup your own gear. http://www.youtube.com/notesleb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
music-man Posted December 19, 2001 Author Share Posted December 19, 2001 First - THANK YOU SO MUCH!! You all are awesome! Some answers, that may help generate other advice ... [quote] can you give up more info on your recorder and the house desk at the club? how many mic ins, line ins on the recorder and simultainious tracks can you record [/quote] Theom - here goes giving it up: 8 analog ins; 2 with mic preamps. I also have a little Mackie 1202 mixer that could provide 4 more mic pre's (plus 4 more line ins submixed), or a submix of 8 more channels, if needed. I still haven't gotten in touch with the club (today has sucked), but as of now, I assume I'm stuck with the house mix. I'll cross my fingers for direct feeds off each channel, that would be ideal. [quote] the best overall live club recording I have was done with a portable dat and a stereo mic. [/quote] strat0124 - yeah! thanks for reminding me - a friend of mine (no really - it was a FRIEND) got some AMAZING stereo recordings at a jazz club in town (that shall remain nameless). I couldn't believe how GOOD it sounded. A little bright, and lots of room noise, but I may still resort to that, if this doesn't work out. [quote] $165.00 for a digital multitrack recording of your show engineered by someone who really knows the room....well...that seems really reasonable to me and a lot less trouble than trying to setup your own gear. [/quote] Wager/Steve - I did notice CB's has a "studio" at the club, and that they were charging an ass and hoof to record. In theory, you're right - it'll be a better recording, but: 1) it ain't my show, so no clams from me; 2) even if it were my show, $165 is 1/4 of a new Waves 56K Card and 1/3 of a new SWR acoustic amp, etc.; ;) 3) I'm willing to tolerate some hassle for my friend (both a great drummer and a great friend - neither are easy to come by in my experience). My first thought when I saw that the club has its own recording rig wasn't "hey great" - it was actually "oh shit" -I'm a little afraid they won't let me bring in my own gear ... I should be able to find about that tomorrow too. [quote] First off, do you have either of the analog expansion boards on your AW? I have an MY8AD on mine, which gives me a total of 16 analog inputs as opposed to the 8 that are stock on the AW. What I did was to buy a couple of 8 channel unbalanced snakes, and when I do live recordings I insert the plugs halfway into the inserts on the house console (which doesn't have direct outs - it would be easier if it did but don't count on that for a club console). That way I can get a pre-fader signal from each of the mics that the house is using and each gets its own separate track, without any of the house sound man's fader moves or effects. . . . If you can get there for sound check, try walking around and finding "sweet spots" on the sides of the stage and put them as high as possible overhead. [/quote] Lee - Unfortunately I don't have any of the expansion boards, and probably won't for a while (saving my pennies for the Waves Card). If I understand you right, you wouldn't mic out in the house at all, but would set up overheads on stage, right? Thanks again for all the help, everyone - I'll check back in when I have more info ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve LeBlanc Posted December 19, 2001 Share Posted December 19, 2001 [quote]it was actually "oh shit" -I'm a little afraid they won't let me bring in my own gear[/quote] heh, yeah check it out beforehand if possible but as long as you aren't blocking any important corridors or anything they shouldn't have a problem. http://www.youtube.com/notesleb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtrmac Posted December 19, 2001 Share Posted December 19, 2001 I've played CBGB more times than I care to remember and I can tell you with some certainty that you will probably not be able to hook up your equipment to their PA. Unless things have changed drastically there is a very fast turnaround of the bands each night and the sound man has his hands full just keeping things moving. Having them do a live multitrack would be the best way to go about it in my opinion. One thing is certain, if you show up at CBGB with a bunch of recording gear you won't have an easy time convincing them to hook it up. I would expect a flat refusal in fact. Mac Bowne G-Clef Acoustics Ltd. Osaka, Japan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted December 19, 2001 Share Posted December 19, 2001 music-man, First of all, your AW4416 actually has mic preamps on all 8 inputs. It's just that only the first two have XLR jacks and phantom power. So I plug the (condenser) room mics into those. Since the other mics are dynamic, you could just get some 1/4" to XLR adapter cables and still plug in more mics. Of course, if you can tap off the house console you'll be using its pres. Since you don't have an expansion card, and you'll only have 8 inputs, that makes it a little tough. For a typical 2-guitar bass and drums setup, or 1 guitar/keys/bass/drums, I usually end up using 13 tracks. This assumes all 4 people sing. The track setup usually looks something like this: 1-2 - room mics 3 - kick drum 4 - snare 5 - rack tom 6 - floor tom 7 - bass 8 - guitar 9 - guitar 2 or keyboard 10 - 13: vocals Now you might be able to get away with something like this, if it's a simpler setup: 1-2 - room mics 3 - kick 4 - snare 5 - bass 6 - guitar 7 - guitar 2 or keyboard 8 - lead vocal Now if there are backing vocals or whatever, you'd have a problem. If there's only one other vocalist and you place your room mics right, you might be able to eliminate the snare mic. Could get interesting. As for whether to place room mics on stage or out in the house... I'd put them on stage so as to get the most out of the drums, unless it's an exceptionally good sounding room in which case you might experiment with different placements. Your typical rock club doesn't have the greatest acoustics, therefore putting them overhead on stage is often the best way to go. Good luck! --Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theom Posted December 19, 2001 Share Posted December 19, 2001 cb's is a fast pace club. You must do some advance work on the phone before the gig. or they will just say "no" louise is the point person, tell her you have your own cables and are willing to show up early to set up and talk to the house guy. You may have to pay a bit, but sometimes it is negociable. ask for the phone # of the house guy for your night and try to cut a deal with him, Even if you do get the ok from louise you should contact the house person ahead of time, offer him a few bucks, so you can talk about a game plan. cb's production # used to be 212-982-4052 i don't think it has changed. PS: I'd bring someone to keep an eye on you room mics. you don't want anything to go missing. theo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theom Posted December 19, 2001 Share Posted December 19, 2001 cb's is a fast pace club. You must do some advance work on the phone before the gig. or they will just say "no" louise is the point person, tell her you have your own cables and are willing to show up early to set up and talk to the house guy. You may have to pay a bit, but sometimes it is negociable. ask for the phone # of the house guy for your night and try to cut a deal with him, Even if you do get the ok from louise you should contact the house person ahead of time, offer him a few bucks, so you can talk about a game plan. cb's production # used to be 212-982-4052 i don't think it has changed. PS: I'd bring someone to keep an eye on you room mics. you don't want anything to go missing. theo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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