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Ocean Beach Digital Drawbars with Motif XF7 B3?


dsetto

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Does anyone know if I can configure & use the Ocean Beach Digital DB-1 Drawbar Controller with a Motif XF7? I would be using an 8 element Motif Voice that contains each drawbar in an element. One drawbar would either be missing, or combined with another drawbar to make a total of 8. I'd like to map the DB-1 accordingly- to have 8 drawbars control 8 Motif elements.
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If he doesn't reply here, OBDave of Ocean Beach Digital should be contacted directly via info on his web site. I'm sure he can help you.

"I'm so crazy, I don't know this is impossible! Hoo hoo!" - Daffy Duck

 

"The good news is that once you start piano you never have to worry about getting laid again. More time to practice!" - MOI

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Does anyone know if I can configure & use the Ocean Beach Digital DB-1 Drawbar Controller with a Motif XF7? I would be using an 8 element Motif Voice that contains each drawbar in an element. One drawbar would either be missing, or combined with another drawbar to make a total of 8. I'd like to map the DB-1 accordingly- to have 8 drawbars control 8 Motif elements.

Element level on a Motif XF can be set via MIDI using custom SysEx messages (details are in the XF Data List). If the DB-1 can do that, then what you're asking about would be possible.

 

Of course, the eight Control Sliders on the XF already can be used to set Voice Element levels. One "drawback" (pun intentional) is that they work in the opposite direction to drawbars.

 

Although not specifically addressing your question, these might be interesting:

http://www.motifator.com/index.php/forum/viewthread/459214/

http://www.motifator.com/index.php/forum/viewthread/445479/

 

Yamaha: Motif XF6 and XS6, A3000V2, A4000, YS200 | Korg: T3EX, 05R/W | Fender Chroma Polaris | Roland U-220 | Etc.

 

 

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If the Motifs control faders respond to midi CC then it can be done.

The DB-1 does not have a built in configuration for a Yamaha, but you can build a CC mapping.

 

"generic control surface: any drawbar can send any MIDI CC on any MIDI channel"

SpaceStation V3,

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Toys: RIP died in the flood of 8/16 1930 Hammond AV, 1970s Leslie 145, 1974 Rhodes Stage

 

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thanks!

OBDave of Ocean Beach Digital should be contacted directly.
will do.

Element level on a Motif XF can be set via MIDI using custom SysEx messages (details are in the XF Data List). If the DB-1 can do that, then what you're asking about would be possible.
If the Motifs control faders respond to midi CC then it can be done.

The DB-1 does not have a built in configuration for a Yamaha, but you can build a CC mapping.

"generic control surface: any drawbar can send any MIDI CC on any MIDI channel"

super.

Although not specifically addressing your question, these might be interesting:

http://www.motifator.com/index.php/forum/viewthread/459214/

http://www.motifator.com/index.php/forum/viewthread/445479/

These are amazing links (to links to links) on the subject. This linked link in particular is enlightening. Motifator - Organ Footages Explained (by Bad_Mister)

 

MIDI2XS, what are your thoughts on the following? I am racking my brain seeing if placing two footages discretely into one element's waveform can lead to a way of having 9 external drawbars volume control 9 footages. I'm seeing if there's anything I know about Motif AWM2 that could allow for this. I am resigned to thinking there's no way. Sometimes, panning tricks, and volume envelope tricks can add "multi-timbrality". But none of the tricks that come to mind would result in natural B3.

 

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MIDI2XS, what are your thoughts on the following? I am racking my brain seeing if placing two footages discretely into one element's waveform can lead to a way of having 9 external drawbars volume control 9 footages. I'm seeing if there's anything I know about Motif AWM2 that could allow for this. I am resigned to thinking there's no way. Sometimes, panning tricks, and volume envelope tricks can add "multi-timbrality". But none of the tricks that come to mind would result in natural B3.

Unfortunately, I have to agree - I don't see a way to a ninth independent control.

 

I do have some thoughts on your original question concerning the DB-1, though...

When the XF is in Master mode, with a Song or Pattern assigned, the Control Sliders send CC#7 messages and Part Volume is controlled by that CC.

 

If nine Voices were programmed to each cover a different footage, a Song/Pattern could be set up with eight of them assigned to receive on MIDI channels 1~8. Based on what HAM&EGZ posted, that would allow a BD-1 to independently control the level of the eight Parts.

 

Several Song/Pattern setups could have different combinations of eight of the nine Voices, depending on which footages worked best for a particular need.

 

Voices with just a single footage could use only one Element, keeping polyphony usage low. Additional Voices could be programmed which might cover two footages (such as 16' and 8'), if that worked better, using two Elements. That still wouldn't impact polyphony significantly.

 

Of course this would take up some User Voice and Song/Pattern locations. If that's an issue, as long as the Voices are all based on Waveforms in ROM, loading an "All" file wouldn't take long and you could have different files depending on gig requirements.

 

Yamaha: Motif XF6 and XS6, A3000V2, A4000, YS200 | Korg: T3EX, 05R/W | Fender Chroma Polaris | Roland U-220 | Etc.

 

 

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Really , For what its worth. Before I would spend $300+ on drawbars for Motif I would get something like a Ferrofsh B4000+ These are Motif organs we are talking about. :D

 

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"A great musician can bring tears to your eyes!!!

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I do have some thoughts on your original question concerning the DB-1, though...

When the XF is in Master mode, with a Song or Pattern assigned, the Control Sliders send CC#7 messages and Part Volume is controlled by that CC. If nine Voices were programmed to each cover a different footage, a Song/Pattern could be set up with eight of them assigned to receive on MIDI channels 1~8. Based on what HAM&EGZ posted, that would allow a BD-1 to independently control the level of the eight Parts.

I like how you're thinking. Excuse my ignorance here. In this scenario, can 9 voices be played to sound simultaneously? I thought only 4 Voices can sound simultanesouly in a Performance.

Of course this would take up some User Voice and Song/Pattern locations.
Not an issue.
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The DB-1 does know how to send Sysex messages for several different keyboards, but the Motif is not one of them. I wasn't aware that the Motif had a drawbar organ engine in it, but then I'm not that familiar with its architecture.
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The DB-1 does know how to send Sysex messages for several different keyboards, but the Motif is not one of them. I wasn't aware that the Motif had a drawbar organ engine in it, but then I'm not that familiar with its architecture.

 

Dave, not in the sense you and I are used to in reference to the DB-1.

The Yammy has some sampled waveforms of organ db footages,

A part has 4/8 "elements(voices) you can assign one of these waveforms to.Then the 8 on board sliders can control the relative volume of each element.I did the same thing with my Mox F8 creating some faux B3,although there is no C/V and percussion is built in to some of the samples and not seperated.

 

The yamaha rotary fx is, well, another sore subject.

SpaceStation V3,

MoxF6,PX5S,Hammond-SK2,Artis7,Stage2-73,

KronosX-73,MS Pro145,Ventilator,OB DB1,Lester K

Toys: RIP died in the flood of 8/16 1930 Hammond AV, 1970s Leslie 145, 1974 Rhodes Stage

 

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Really , For what its worth. Before I would spend $300+ on drawbars for Motif I would get something like a Ferrofsh B4000+

This.

 

For the same amount of money, you get the full 9 drawbars, C/V, percussion, rotary and the sizing is the same. The Ferrofish also can control the drawbars of the upper, lower and pedals, so if you have two keyboards you could go double manual with independent drawbar control. Improvements all around for the same $'s. Plus, if you get rid of the XF7 down the road, you can move the unit to the next keyboard.

57 Hammond B3; 69 Hammond L100P; 68 Leslie 122; Kurzweil Forte7 & PC3; M-Audio Code 61; Voce V5+; Neo Vent; EV ELX112P; GSI Gemini & Burn

Delaware Dave

Exit93band

 

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Really , For what its worth. Before I would spend $300+ on drawbars for Motif I would get something like a Ferrofsh B4000+ These are Motif organs we are talking about. :D

I'm not taking a position on using the DB-1 with the Motif XF, just offering a possible approach if someone wanted to do it. :)

Yamaha: Motif XF6 and XS6, A3000V2, A4000, YS200 | Korg: T3EX, 05R/W | Fender Chroma Polaris | Roland U-220 | Etc.

 

 

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I do have some thoughts on your original question concerning the DB-1, though...

When the XF is in Master mode, with a Song or Pattern assigned, the Control Sliders send CC#7 messages and Part Volume is controlled by that CC. If nine Voices were programmed to each cover a different footage, a Song/Pattern could be set up with eight of them assigned to receive on MIDI channels 1~8. Based on what HAM&EGZ posted, that would allow a BD-1 to independently control the level of the eight Parts.

I like how you're thinking. Excuse my ignorance here. In this scenario, can 9 voices be played to sound simultaneously? I thought only 4 Voices can sound simultanesouly in a Performance.

In a Song or Pattern (a Multi), up to 16 Parts can play simultaneously. In order to have independent level control of up to eight Parts, the Song/Pattern can be assigned to a Master with the each of the eight available Zones set to transmit on the appropriate channel. So, still limited to eight controls, although some Part(s) could have more than one footage layered.

 

To be clear, I'm not addressing whether this approach will satisfy B3 aficionados, just describing a means of using an external device to control levels on a Motif XF via CC. The messenger would appreciate not being shot. :)

 

Yamaha: Motif XF6 and XS6, A3000V2, A4000, YS200 | Korg: T3EX, 05R/W | Fender Chroma Polaris | Roland U-220 | Etc.

 

 

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I wasn't aware that the Motif had a drawbar organ engine in it, but then I'm not that familiar with its architecture.
As far as I know, the Motif does not have a drawbar organ engine. In one mode (Voice mode), the Motif XF/XS can have 8 separate sounds, each sound can be one of the 9 discrete sounds associated with a B3's single drawbar. And as MIDI2XS is teaching me, each of these 8 separate sounds have a CC# that can control the volume of each sound, independently. Also I'm learning that there's another mode (Master-'Mixing' Mode) where all 9 B3 drawbar tones can be readily available and simultaneously playable, but, at any given moment, the volume of only 8 can be simultaneously controlled via CC messages.

 

From the DB-1 faq...

Does the DB-1 support other MIDI drawbar organs?

Yes. The DB-1 is fully programmable for use with any tone wheel organ or virtual instrument that uses MIDI Continuous Controller messages to control individual drawbars.

Without an understanding the CC-level programming of either the DB-1 & the Yamaha Motif XF7, I believe the tricky part would be setting up the relationship between these 2, whereby the pulling of a DB-1 drawbar raises the volume of a Motif Part Volume. From what I read on oceanbeachdigital.com, the DB-1 is designed to work with clone wheels. Typically, I would imagine a volume-governing CC would have a value of 0 equate to zero volume, and a value of 127 to equate to maximum value. I wonder if clone-wheels have a volume-governing CC with value of 0 to equate to maximum value, and a value of 127 to equate to no volume. And, the DB-1 is designed to function like a B3 when controlling clone wheels. So for the DB-1 to function like a natural B3, either the DB-1 has to have the ability to "reverse" the outgoing CC message, or the Motif XF has to have the ability to "reverse" the incoming CC message.

 

OB Dave, can the DB-1 be re-programmed so that its drawbars send a reversed message? I'm asking this in light of the many assumptions I made above.

 

The DB-1 does know how to send Sysex messages for several different keyboards, but the Motif is not one of them.
Does this mean it simply will not work with the Yamaha Motif XF?
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In a Song or Pattern (a Multi), up to 16 Parts can play simultaneously.
I just tried that for the 1st time. If I had ever read that ability, it had completely vanished from my mind. Mind blown! I'm not a fan of densely stacked sounds; but structurally, it's another approach I didn't realize I had in the XF. I'm still spending my time, simply, at the Voice/8-element level.

In order to have independent level control of up to eight Parts, the Song/Pattern can be assigned to a Master with the each of the eight available Zones set to transmit on the appropriate channel. So, still limited to eight controls, although some Part(s) could have more than one footage layered.
I'm gonna have to attempt this later. And, then I'll have a better sense of what this can accomplish. -- I'm trying to conceptualize how it's different from 8-Element Voice mode. I suppose it's as simple as in Master-'Mixing' mode, I can play all 9 drawbars at the same time, but I can only control the levels of 8 at one given moment. ? (Even with something like a DB-1.) Before asking more about this, I should try it. (I want to ask, in this Master-'Mixing' mode where I'm playing 9 sounds, controlling 8, is there a way in a quick button, to maintain the existing sound-level arrangement, press that button, control that 9th sound, and go back to the 8. I am going to guess "no".

 

Thank you.

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[...]To achieve the immediacy of organ, I'm going to see what I can get within my XF7.

Here's something to play around with...

http://www.motifator.com/index.php/forum/index.php/viewthread/475065/

...definitely only a very limited "test of concept".

Yamaha: Motif XF6 and XS6, A3000V2, A4000, YS200 | Korg: T3EX, 05R/W | Fender Chroma Polaris | Roland U-220 | Etc.

 

 

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FYI, building organ tones using separate samples is going to create phasing issues. The Motif oscillators are not phase-locked.

 

This is an example I made using the Motif XS in the way the OP described. Each chord in the series contain the same notes but because of phasing each sounds different. The first series is a single tone, hence no phasing issue.

 

Motif XF Organ Phasing

 

Busch.

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FYI, building organ tones using separate samples is going to create phasing issues. The Motif oscillators are not phase-locked.

 

This is an example I made using the Motif XS in the way the OP described. Each chord in the series contain the same notes but because of phasing each sounds different. The first series is a single tone, hence no phasing issue.

 

Motif XF Organ Phasing

 

Busch.

Yes, separate samples can't accurately emulate actual tonewheels that are locked down to a rotating shaft. The phasing problem is common to any situation where similar Voices are layered, not just organs. ROMplers have their limitations, and a Motif isn't a B3, obviously. The Motifator post and attachment were designed to allow anyone contemplating that approach to determine whether the result would satisfy them.

 

Yamaha: Motif XF6 and XS6, A3000V2, A4000, YS200 | Korg: T3EX, 05R/W | Fender Chroma Polaris | Roland U-220 | Etc.

 

 

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FYI, building organ tones using separate samples is going to create phasing issues. The Motif oscillators are not phase-locked.

Busch.

Thank you so much for that Busch. I stumbled across your Motif rompler phasing issue demonstration recently when researching organ & Motif. Your generous contribution to the world of keyboards, technology, & musicality is astounding. My biggest reason to get a Kronos is to be able to enjoy your wisdom & creativity.

 

On this B3 side mission of mine:

My portable instruments are a CP4, Voyager, XF7, & and old Juno 2. My stable is full. I would absolutely love to have a B3 clone wheel. For many years, I've been waiting for a deeper polyphonic analog with built-in knobs. Now that I've got the CP4, I seriously assessed getting rid of the XF7. However, I've decided to go deeper with it. I've recently used the XF7 to emulate a B3. I had a neo vent & moog delay acting as chorus. I used Easy Sounds' 8 raw-drawbars sound. Going through an old twin reverb. Sonically & feel-wise, the results were better than expected. (I received lots of great feedback and inquiries on the rig, including from a very tasty and successful pro pedal steel guitarist, with whom I had the fortune to join.) The B3-XF7 were sufficient, especially for the current position B3 holds in my musical capability. Surely, I would learn the B3 language quicker with a clone-wheel. For now, I am going to take my XF7 as far as I have the patience to take it. And, during the process, I am familiarizing myself with the family tree consisting of the organ/B3-analog synthesizer-sampler. And Yamaha's take on those foundations. Learning how to go towards a B3 on the XF7 may open up approaches that are no longer B3 emulation attempts. And yeah, I believe I've already come across phasing problems when I've stacked stock & my synth samples. The Kronos is great because it has the clone wheel & the VA's. But, I've got an XF7; I'm happy with it, and I'm going to make the best of it.

 

Regarding phasing. At a simple level, I have to adjust my playing I suppose, and avoid sitting on, or even hitting octaves. Maybe it's deeper than that. Also, maybe there's something I can do, at either the sampling level, or at the programming level that can artificially accommodate the phasing issue.

 

Bottom line, I'm not a B3 player. And I have a newfound deep admiration for it. Thanks to one Joachim Young performance a long time ago. I was trying to add drawbars so that I can at least begin to get a sense of it. I can practice the swell pedal with that I've got. And, if I am so inclined, I can try to get even tastier (or more varied) B3 samples into my XF7; beyond what Easy Sounds has. In the end, the XF7 will be a static sampler paying an homage to the B3. And, in theory, while I can't nail a B3 like a clone wheel; I can give it it's own respectful & unique take, that fits my needs. But, these are a lot of words to replace, or make me feel better with going with what I have, and not selling the XF7, and going for a clone wheel & P6. There're a couple production elements I lose in that route.

 

I figure I might as well get this all out now. By the way, I've got an old wheezy L-100 that's been at a tech's place for too long. I've got to get those contacts cleaned, tuned-up, and back!

 

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Here's something to play around with...
The Motifator post and attachment were designed to allow anyone contemplating that approach to determine whether the result would satisfy them.
This is much appreciated. Can't wait to check it out.

 

KC, it's not like I'm on a $250 PSR. Which, in the hands of any good reggae player, kills.

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As far as I know, the Motif does not have a drawbar organ engine. In one mode (Voice mode), the Motif XF/XS can have 8 separate sounds, each sound can be one of the 9 discrete sounds associated with a B3's single drawbar. And as MIDI2XS is teaching me, each of these 8 separate sounds have a CC# that can control the volume of each sound, independently. Also I'm learning that there's another mode (Master-'Mixing' Mode) where all 9 B3 drawbar tones can be readily available and simultaneously playable, but, at any given moment, the volume of only 8 can be simultaneously controlled via CC messages.

[...]

Typically, I would imagine a volume-governing CC would have a value of 0 equate to zero volume, and a value of 127 to equate to maximum value. I wonder if clone-wheels have a volume-governing CC with value of 0 to equate to maximum value, and a value of 127 to equate to no volume. And, the DB-1 is designed to function like a B3 when controlling clone wheels. So for the DB-1 to function like a natural B3, either the DB-1 has to have the ability to "reverse" the outgoing CC message, or the Motif XF has to have the ability to "reverse" the incoming CC message.

 

OB Dave, can the DB-1 be re-programmed so that its drawbars send a reversed message? I'm asking this in light of the many assumptions I made above.

 

The DB-1 does know how to send Sysex messages for several different keyboards, but the Motif is not one of them.
Does this mean it simply will not work with the Yamaha Motif XF?

Sorry, it really wasn't my intent to be opaque, I honestly do not know the answer because I do not know the Motif architecture.

 

Some instruments (Roland Jupiter, Roland Integra-7, Korg Kronos) do allow for control of individual drawbars, but instead of MIDI CCs, that ability is buried in Sysex messages. Some time ago I added the ability for the DB-1 to send the correct Sysex messages for these instruments. I don't know whether the Motif also works that way, I can only tell you that if it does, the DB-1 isn't set up to send Yamaha Sysex messages. So if the Motif's faders can only be controlled via Sysex, the DB-1 will not work for you.

 

On the other hand, if the Motif uses MIDI CCs, I am pretty confident the DB-1 would work for you. The DB-1's CC functionality is quite flexible. Each of the DB-1's drawbars can be programmed to send any MIDI CC on any MIDI channel, and you can also specify the polarity. So drawbar pushed all the way away can either mean send Max Value (what I call Fader Mode) or send Min Value of 0 (what I call Drawbar Mode). I think this is what you mean by "reversing the outgoing CC message." This is something that can be programmed on a drawbar-by-drawbar basis. In addition, there is a global setting that controls whether, as a drawbar moves through its range of travel, to send all 128 values along the way (like a normal control surface) or to chop the travel into nine "zones" like a Hammond drawbar, and only send a new value when leaving one of the nine zones and entering another.

 

Regards,

 

Dave

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Wow! Thank you! I've got some homework to do. You understood exactly what I struggled to convey. Ability to specifying the polarity is very cool. As are the 9 zones ability. Thanks to you & KC!
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Hopefully I can clarify the situation a bit.

 

A Motif XS/XF Voice is comprised of up to eight Elements. Each Element is based on an Oscillator, which of course for a ROMpler is a sampled Waveform. In Voice mode the Control Sliders send and respond via SysEx, and each of the eight sliders can control one Element.

 

However, the Control Sliders aren't limited to SysEx operation. In Master mode, when a Master is assigned to a Song or Pattern, they send and respond via CC. Up to eight Parts (Voices) in the Master can be independently controlled by correctly setting up Master Zones with distinct MIDI Channels. The default is CC#7, but even that can be changed if necessary.

 

Obviously, if a drawbar controller can send the necessary SysEx, a single Voice with eight Elements could be controlled. If only control via CC is available, then a Song- or Pattern-based Master will work, but of course that requires eight Voices, a Song/Pattern setup, and a Master to accomplish basically the same thing.

 

The attachment to the Motifator post sets up Voices, Song, and Master that would work with a controller where the drawbars send CC#7 messages, each on a different one of the first eight MIDI channels. I verified expected response by sending such messages to my XF via MIDI-OX.

 

Yamaha: Motif XF6 and XS6, A3000V2, A4000, YS200 | Korg: T3EX, 05R/W | Fender Chroma Polaris | Roland U-220 | Etc.

 

 

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Hopefully I can clarify the situation a bit.
Understatement. This all sounds very promising. Inordinate thanks for putting it all together.
In Master mode, when a Master is assigned to a Song or Pattern, they send and respond via CC. Up to eight Parts (Voices) in the Master can be independently controlled by correctly setting up Master Zones with distinct MIDI Channels. The default is CC#7, but even that can be changed if necessary.
Super!

If only control via CC is available, then a Song- or Pattern-based Master will work, but of course that requires eight Voices, a Song/Pattern setup, and a Master to accomplish basically the same thing.
Which in my book, is totally fine. I.e., I'm fine to dedicate the entire XF7 to best approximate a B3.

The attachment to the Motifator post sets up Voices, Song, and Master that would work with a controller where the drawbars send CC#7 messages, each on a different one of the first eight MIDI channels. I verified expected response by sending such messages to my XF via MIDI-OX.

Entirely astounding. Not just the info, but the many extra miles!

--

As soon as I can I will try out your "test of concept"; and read up on handling CC with the Motif, to follow along. I've already gone back to Sweetwater to see how much the DB-1 costs. The thought of incorporating the DB-1 is exciting.

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With the way my mind works, I've got the "phasing" reality as a potential "deal-breaker" to this effort. But, if that's a wall, so be it. (I have hopes that perhaps, in programming/sampling land that can be addressed.) But, I don't have that command yet to know ahead of time. And then, it's about effort in.

 

I could at least still get (in a less portable package):

- vibey static sound (but longer samples)

- excellent 76 keys (shallow action, fast return; possibly long see-saw key providing good control)

- potentially drawbar control of one manual at a time, of at least 8 drawbars

- outside rotary sim

- outside chorus

- practice on swell (I don't think I'll ever do much in this regard. This is hard!!)

 

Thank you, KC!

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As soon as I can I will try out your "test of concept"; and read up on handling CC with the Motif, to follow along. I've already gone back to Sweetwater to see how much the DB-1 costs. The thought of incorporating the DB-1 is exciting.

I hope it provides enough basis for you to determine if getting the DB-1 makes sense for you. Naturally, you could use different Waveforms in the Voices, perhaps others from the Motif ROM or sample libraries, etc. I'd suggest thinking of it as just a basic guide for how things could be set up to work with a controller which functions via CC messages.

 

Yamaha: Motif XF6 and XS6, A3000V2, A4000, YS200 | Korg: T3EX, 05R/W | Fender Chroma Polaris | Roland U-220 | Etc.

 

 

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