bleedingspawn Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 http://TheGuitarMusic.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/rock-v-jazz.jpg RR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred_C Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Sadly, very true. I can distinctly recall my final lesson with the great Jerry Ricks back in the 60's. I was packing up my gear and I said to him, "What should I play?" Jerry replied, "Play what makes you smile." I listened to my teacher. Playing Jazz has made me smile for the past 16 years. If you play cool, you are cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caevan O’Shite Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Sadly, very true. I can distinctly recall my final lesson with the great Jerry Ricks back in the 60's. I was packing up my gear and I said to him, "What should I play?" Jerry replied, "Play what makes you smile." I listened to my teacher. Playing Jazz has made me smile for the past 16 years. Ask yourself- What Would Ren and Stimpy Do? ~ Caevan James-Michael Miller-O'Shite ~ _ ___ _ Leprechaun, Esquire _ ___ _ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEHpicker Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Good Advice. SEHpicker The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it." George Orwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitefang Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I know the OP was meant ot be a joke, but, as Fred responded, it IS sad but true.... Much negative stigma has, for some reason, been attatched to this form of music over the years, and I too, don't understand it. It's to many a jazz buff's chagrin that there was( and possibly still is?) a need for American jazz greats to ply their trade overseas in Europe in order to find an appreciative audience. That one had to go on the other side of the globe to find people who appreciated this truly AMERICAN art form should illicit shame on those "Americans" who choose to recognize it. Whitefang I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred_C Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I know the OP was meant ot be a joke, but, as Fred responded, it IS sad but true.... Much negative stigma has, for some reason, been attatched to this form of music over the years, and I too, don't understand it. It's to many a jazz buff's chagrin that there was( and possibly still is?) a need for American jazz greats to ply their trade overseas in Europe in order to find an appreciative audience. That one had to go on the other side of the globe to find people who appreciated this truly AMERICAN art form should illicit shame on those "Americans" who choose to recognize it. Whitefang +1 If you play cool, you are cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skipclone 1 Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 One look at reality TV should tell you all you need to know about what sells in America. In fairness Japanese TV is not much better if at all, I have pretty much stopped watching except for news. There is an area of Tokyo which has a well-established jazz scene, with lots of late night jams and such. Unfortunately it`s kind of far from where I am and the trains are not 24 hours. But for the average person-the kind that`s around in large numbers-jazz is often obscure and undanceable, which is why I still have a soft spot for fusion-put those harmonies together with a rhythm you can move to, and ya got me. Same old surprises, brand new cliches- Skipsounds on Soundclick: www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandid=602491 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p90jr Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 I grew up in a jazz and classical musician household. I think music is a language... most people don't have the "vocabulary" to understand jazz... or classical, really. Pop music these days is like a Dick and Jane book. That was just a joke I used to make after setting up that premise, then I saw a clip from a Korn concert where they put "London Bridge is falling down" in the middle of one of their songs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desertbluesman Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 I took lessons from 2 outstanding jazzers, Emily Remler, and Bob Aslanian (Bob taught Al Di Meola) From them I learned a lot of stuff that I still use to this day in my musical endeavors, but I call myself a blues based rock player because that is the music I like to play. But every once in a while I do slip into some nice minor key stuff just for the sheer pleasure of playing it, and hear those noises coming back at me from my amp. I thought the thread starter was amusing, because any great jazz player is working somewhere in some small club. Yes they don't make the big bucks like the "superstars" do, But they make a living doing what they love to do without compromise, and something can be said for that. dbm If it sounds good, it is good !! http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=143231&content=music Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skipclone 1 Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Well it`s important to keep in mind, that pop music is about selling stuff. The same big companies that are selling guitars to us, are selling turntables to guys who are saying guitar music is `passe`. Gee, where have I seen that strategy before... Maybe a Miles Davis action figure would help? Someone could make a recipe for `Wynton Marsalad`. I mean, has any jazz guy had his dysfunctional family on TV? Same old surprises, brand new cliches- Skipsounds on Soundclick: www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandid=602491 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred_C Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 I think music is a language... most people don't have the "vocabulary" to understand jazz... or classical, really. Pop music these days is like a Dick and Jane book. 100% agreement. As you observed, you have to be able to communicate through a common language I think someone would be very hard pressed to successfully study Jazz without a fairly extensive knowledge of Theory. I believe I mentioned in the past that my first Jazz guitar teacher alternated lessons. One week we would discuss theory and the next week we would apply the preceding week's lesson to playing music. If you play cool, you are cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Iverson Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Part of the problem is that jazz has become quite inbred, where jazz musicians play for other jazz musicians, who understand the subtleties. It's now an academic music. Of course, there's still plenty of emotion there, if you dig a little deeper. I'm not sure what the solution is. I know a few fine jazz players, like Pat Metheny and Pat Martino have had successful careers without sacrificing their creativity. Clearly we don't need jazz players to put on clown suits and all that showbiz BS, but some of them need to reach out a little more to the people, and not be so ELITIST...... acting like people who don't know what notes to play over 11#4b9 chords are idiots, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skipclone 1 Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Well the current version of pop is heavily about dance & electronica-to make a bit of a confession I`ve been out to the occasional dance club since like forever. As much as we may put down the simplistic song structures or harmonic elements, on average the sound quality is better-of course it`s prerecorded. But to hear that music at a club there`s no screeching feedback, no broken strings, everything`s integrated so fewer gear failures. For that matter fewer human failures. And it`s all about getting people up and moving. I`m not saying that makes it better, or that jazz guys should be doing all of that too. But looking at something that obviously resonates with people and writing it off with `well that`s not us` is kinda self-defeating. Same old surprises, brand new cliches- Skipsounds on Soundclick: www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandid=602491 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred_C Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Part of the problem is that jazz has become quite inbred, where jazz musicians play for other jazz musicians, who understand the subtleties. It's now an academic music. Of course, there's still plenty of emotion there, if you dig a little deeper. I'm not sure what the solution is. I know a few fine jazz players, like Pat Metheny and Pat Martino have had successful careers without sacrificing their creativity. Clearly we don't need jazz players to put on clown suits and all that showbiz BS, but some of them need to reach out a little more to the people, and not be so ELITIST...... acting like people who don't know what notes to play over 11#4b9 chords are idiots, etc. [/quote I agree. I think it is also somewhat dependent upon sub-genre. For example, I play the Jazz standards of the 30's, 40's and 50's with some 60's Bossa Nova. There's plenty of emotion in that music. Editorially speaking, I think the #4 interval would probably be notated as a b5 (LOL). If you play cool, you are cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Fraser Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Editorially speaking, I think the #4 interval would probably be notated as a b5 (LOL). Not in a Lydian context. Scott Fraser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred_C Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Editorially speaking, I think the #4 interval would probably be notated as a b5 (LOL). Not in a Lydian context. Possibly, in a scalar scenario. But, Winston quoted a chord (11#4b9) which would probably be defined from the root. Wouldn't it. So, I may be mistaken, but, IMO it's probably Ionian. If you play cool, you are cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitefang Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 I think music is a language... most people don't have the "vocabulary" to understand jazz... or classical, really. Pop music these days is like a Dick and Jane book. I think it's this kind of pretention, or the PERCEPTION of it is what helped "kill" the jazz audience. I used to(when both finances and health permitted it) attend DSO concerts on a regular basis. Now, most of you here KNOW I'm not a seriously trained or skilled musician, but I LOVE jazz AND have a deep fondness for classical music. HOW then can THAT be? Actually, most of the other patrons of those DSO concerts probably can't whistle a jingle. My WIFE, who admittedly, can't even sing "Rock-a-bye Baby" to where it would possibly be recognizable, likes classical music, too. But, not jazz too much, except maybe the old "big band" stuff. No "vocabulary" is required for any of this, just an open mind, and an appreciation of melody. What made the classical composer's music, and early to contemporary jazz musicians and combos successful to begin with, was a propensity for composing and playing their music in a form that spoke to EVERYbody, NOT just "preaching to the choir". MOZART for example, (plus MOST, if not all, the "classical" composers) sought acceptance and appreciation from the PEOPLE. And, face it, most people, today as well as back then, don't( and didn't) know ANDANTE from SPUMANTI. And didn't really care! But, they KNEW what appealed to their EARS! And, once most jazz started getting like Ornette Coleman and/or SUN RA, most casual listeners opted out. Hell, even a lot of jazz LOVERS and other musicians tuned out as well! But, I LIKE that "Dick and Jane book" analogy about "pop" music! I used to liken the difference between "pop" music and "rock" music thus: "pop" is the term we here in the midwest use to describe soft drinks. Like Coke and Pepsi and such, what people in other regions might refer to as "soda". So, as "pop" is usually considered a beverage for the kiddies, and the complete opposite of more ADULT beverages, like beer, wine or distilled alchohol, I thought of "pop" MUSIC in the same vein! "pop music" was for the kiddies, while "rock" was for GROWN-UPS"! Plus, as a beverage, "pop" has NO KICK as does alchohol and such! Whitefang I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larryz Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 It's hard to put jazz in a box as there are just too many different definitions of the genre. The jazz that is hard for us to understand will usually draw a smaller crowd of sophisticated listeners. I attended a concert limited to 200 sold out tickets at a PBS filming of a live concert featuring Tommy Emmanuel, Bucky Pizzarelli, Frank Vignola, Vinny Raniolo and Joe Craven. There were many guitar players and their spouses in the crowd, most in the 50's and 60's age group but with some of the younger generations making the scene. Everyone enjoyed the concert with many standing-o's as evidence. It was mostly just old jazz standard material from the 30's 40's 50's and 60's. Kind of a Django style bounce of chord patterns with great improvisation over tunes like Sweet Georgia Brown. About 2 hours non-stop... I would rather attend a small venue like this and be in the crowd of 3, instead of fighting my way in and out of the crowd of 3,000 at a rock concert any day... Take care, Larryz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Fraser Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Editorially speaking, I think the #4 interval would probably be notated as a b5 (LOL). Not in a Lydian context. Possibly, in a scalar scenario. But, Winston quoted a chord (11#4b9) which would probably be defined from the root. Wouldn't it. So, I may be mistaken, but, IMO it's probably Ionian. Sorry, thought you were speaking generally. Yes, well, 11 & #4 in the same chord spelling begs clarification. Scott Fraser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred_C Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Editorially speaking, I think the #4 interval would probably be notated as a b5 (LOL). Not in a Lydian context. Possibly, in a scalar scenario. But, Winston quoted a chord (11#4b9) which would probably be defined from the root. Wouldn't it. So, I may be mistaken, but, IMO it's probably Ionian. Sorry, thought you speaking generally. Yes, well, 11 & #4 in the same chord spelling begs clarification. Hey Scott, Yeah, a strange voicing, indeed, If you play cool, you are cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winston Psmith Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Editorially speaking, I think the #4 interval would probably be notated as a b5 (LOL). Not in a Lydian context. Possibly, in a scalar scenario. But, Winston quoted a chord (11#4b9) which would probably be defined from the root. Wouldn't it. So, I may be mistaken, but, IMO it's probably Ionian. Sorry, thought you speaking generally. Yes, well, 11 & #4 in the same chord spelling begs clarification. Hey Scott, Yeah, a strange voicing, indeed, In fairness, it was Eric Iverson who came up with that particular voicing in this thread. In another thread, discussing the Trio pedal, I had made a remark questioning if the pedal's DSP derived a chord's Root from the lowest note detected. Just to stir the pot, I'm reading that as an Augmented 11th Chord? "Monsters are real, and Ghosts are real too. They live inside us, and sometimes, they win." Stephen King http://www.novparolo.com https://thewinstonpsmithproject.bandcamp.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred_C Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Winston, Sorry, I'm confusing members today. This is the second time I've misquoted someone. Question: What tone are you reading as the augmentation. Wouldn't that require a #5 somewhere in the chord. IMO, the #4 would actually be the "enharmonic equivalent" of a b5, but I don't see a #5 anywhere. Could you please explain your opinion further? Sorry for the confusion regarding who posted what. Regards. If you play cool, you are cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larryz Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 11#4b9 sure doesn't sound right. I think the flatted 9th is usually added to a dominant 13th and/or a dominant 7th chord. The 9th is usually added to an Augmented 11th. (b5 = #4 = #11) How about skipping the flat 9th and go for a Dominant Ninth Augmented 11th? ( R 3 7 9 #11 ) Take care, Larryz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred_C Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 #11 is actually a b5 voiced an octave higher. I still think that any augmented chord requires a #5. For example, the tones in the augmented triad are 1,3,#5. If you play cool, you are cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larryz Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 My jazz chord book uses R 3 7 9 #11 as an augmented 11th chord...but it's a dominant 9th chord with an augmented 11th (as the chord in question would be without a flatted 9th). +1 all other Augmented chords would require a #5 ( R 3 #5)... Take care, Larryz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred_C Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Brother Larry, Okay. I stand corrected. Augmented 11th it is. If you play cool, you are cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larryz Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Brother Fred, you are always the go to guy on the jazz stuff...I have to go look it up, while you know it like the back of your hand! The flat 9th throws the whole thing out of whack anyway LOL! Take care, Larryz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred_C Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 That's one of the things I like about you, Bro. Larry. No matter what, you always have something nice and positive to say. I have no problem admitting I was incorrect. I don't claim to know everything. Regards. Bro. Fred If you play cool, you are cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winston Psmith Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 @Fred C. - you're not wrong, by any means. The Augmented 11th Chord is an oddball chord that can be played without the #5. I think it's a concession to the layout of the guitar neck, and the limits it imposes on note selection within a chord voicing. "Monsters are real, and Ghosts are real too. They live inside us, and sometimes, they win." Stephen King http://www.novparolo.com https://thewinstonpsmithproject.bandcamp.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred_C Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Thank you, Winston for your kind response. But, in a very real sense, I was wrong in assuming that the #5 was a necessary component of every augmented chord. If you play cool, you are cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.