Playing VST instruments live

[wiggy80]

Hi guys,

 

Im new to VST instruments so go easy.

 

I would like to play live using some Kontakt instruments. Is it just a case of buying something like THIS then connecting my keyboard to the line inputs on the mixer, connecting a laptop via the mixers USB input, then sending a feed from the mixers main outputs to the bands mixing desk ?

 

Your help is much appreciated.

 

Thanks

 

 

[ITGITC]

Hi guys,

 

Im new to VST instruments so go easy.

 

I would like to play live using some Kontakt instruments. Is it just a case of buying something like THIS then connecting my keyboard to the line inputs on the mixer, connecting a laptop via the mixers USB input, then sending a feed from the mixers main outputs to the bands mixing desk ?

 

Your help is much appreciated.

 

Thanks

 

 

You'll need a MIDI / Audio interface LIKE THIS.

[JeffLearman]

Tom's suggestion is a good one. However, if your keyboard has a MIDI/USB output, then the Behringer would do the trick. Also, I've used laptop headphone outputs to an analog mixer, and that works fine too, depending on how good the laptop's built-in is.

 

Just to clarify:

 

1) MIDI signals need to get from your keyboard to the computer. That can either be USB all the way, or it could be MIDI DIN to MIDI-USB adpaptor.

 

2) Audio output from your computer -- either headphone outputs, or USB or Firewire to an audio interface (like the Behringer or the Steinberg).

 

3) If you use the keyboard's sounds, then something to mix the keyboard's audio output and laptops audio.

 

Tom's solution does all three (assuming the keyboard has MIDI DIN connectors, not a MIDI/USB connector). So, it's a likely winner.

 

The Behringer doesn't handle #1, so your keyboard would have to have MIDI/USB for that to work, or you'd need to add a MIDI/USB adaptor (that you can find for $6 or less on ebay, and folks say they work fine.)

 

Some keyboards have audio inputs that get mixed with its outputs. If your keyboard has these, then you wouldn't need a mixer (#3). So, using laptop headphone outputs into the keyboard, you'd only need to solve the MIDI -> computer path. Aftermarket audio interfaces are likely to sound a bit better, though.

 

Finally, while you can send this to FOH and hope to get a decent monitor, most of us bring our own monitor(s). If the venue has only one monitor feed to stage, if you got enough keyboards in the monitor to hear yourself well, it'd be too loud for a vocalist. Most of us use a small powered PA speaker (or two) for this. [FOH = "front of house" -- the main mixing station.]

[wiggy80]

Thanks guys for your replies, my keyboard does have a USB port

 

So i would just have to plug the keyboard and mixer into the laptop via USB ports then send a feed to the bands main mixing desk from the outputs on the USB mixer ?

[Ashville.Guru]

So i would just have to plug the keyboard and mixer into the laptop via USB ports then send a feed to the bands main mixing desk from the outputs on the USB mixer ?

Clarification: what @ITGITC suggested above is an audio interface - examples here. The Behringer Xenyx you have posted is a mixer with a USB connection. The two are different, despite overlapping functions. An interface can do the job of a mixer, but not the other way round.

 

Now the question is, do you need an interface or use the laptop's built-in headphone outs. It depends on your context and your gigging needs. As @LearJeff points out, it's possible to use the built-in outs. Is it the best way to do things? That's debatable.

 

An interface has solid advantages: better sound quality, more dynamic range, volume control knobs, multiple outs, more audio load at lower latencies, balanced 1/4" outputs, etc.

 

The best way to do it: plug the keyboard and interface (not mixer) into the laptop. Send the output from the interface to the mains.

 

- Guru

[wiggy80]

Thanks, i think i understand now. Will most likely go for the MIDI/Audio interface.

 

Do any of you own the Steinberg UR22? There seems to be a few owners complaining of low frequency noise

[JeffLearman]

So i would just have to plug the keyboard and mixer into the laptop via USB ports then send a feed to the bands main mixing desk from the outputs on the USB mixer ?

Clarification: what @ITGITC suggested above is an audio interface - examples here. The Behringer Xenyx you have posted is a mixer with a USB connection. The two are different, despite overlapping functions. An interface can do the job of a mixer, but not the other way round.

 

...

 

The best way to do it: plug the keyboard and interface (not mixer) into the laptop. Send the output from the interface to the mains.

 

- Guru

This mixer has a built in audio interface, so it's both.

[ITGITC]

Thanks, i think i understand now. Will most likely go for the MIDI/Audio interface.

 

Do any of you own the Steinberg UR22? There seems to be a few owners complaining of low frequency noise

 

I use it. Purchased on recommendations by other KC members.

 

I have not had problems with low frequency noise.

 

In fact, I haven't had any problems with this unit whatsoever.

 

From my family to yours, I am wishing all my KC friends a happy holiday season!

 

Tom

 

[davinwv]

I have a UR-44 and two UR-22s - one in my live rack and a spare. All are rock solid products.

[Stokely]

I've only dabbled with VSTs in a band setting, and that only in practice. Every time I had some kind of issue that ended with the band staring at me while I fumbled with the laptop, so I chickened out and went back to hardware keyboards! (At home I'm definitely software-only).

 

So my 2c is: make sure you know the connections inside-and-out before you try to play out, or even at practice. I'd always hook up the usb to the same connection, as odd as that sounds (I had issues with a driver that refused to work when usb was connected to a port other than the one that was connected when it was installed). Granted some of my issues were due to using windows xp, but a mac laptop also gave me a few hassles.

 

But everything would have worked fine I think if I'd kept everything exactly the same from home to practice. For example, I brought my laptop to work and programmed mainstage (comes with Logic) using a little midi keyboard...when I got to practice using a different controller, half my VSTs refused to work (!) It was due to different midi transmit channels on the two controllers...so user error, but there's definitely more moving parts.

 

The other hassle with VSTs in my experience is patch leveling...it's harder to level everything out if you use a lot of different VSTs (which you may not be). It also gets crazy if you don't account for mono--meaning that if you program everything while listening at home in stereo, then arrive at a gig and discover the PA is in mono...yikes. Some VSTs get most of their cool sound from their effects, and effects can completely dry up when put to mono. Unlike a hardware board where it's usually easy to switch things to mono (just by using a single cable out instead of two), it may not be that easy to change software to mono. If your interface can do it, good...if not, you may have to re-program patches within various VSTs.

 

Laptops can be prone to power supply noise, depends on the laptop. My windows laptop had this, my mac did not. That said, my hardware rig has had an issue or two as well depending on the club. I started getting power from our bass player's rackmount power (furman conditioner) and all those issues went away.

 

The last thing that scared me about using VSTs...I didn't have enough gear to have a backup for everything. With hardware boards, I can survive if one of them dies, and I have a backup mixer and cables. I didn't have a backup interface/laptop/controller...of course you can use a hardware board as your controller and that way you can still make sounds if the laptop has issues.

 

Not to discourage you at all, these are just some of the challenges I saw when trying it. Nothing that can't be overcome certainly.

[Ashville.Guru]

This mixer has a built in audio interface, so it's both.

True. However, the Xenyx, like most 'mixer with USB' - class devices, relies on the Asio4All drivers. So they lack the performance benefits that dedicated interfaces provide. In other words, they won't let you run more plugins or at lower buffer sizes. I remember reports of latency issues from many of this class from a few years back, I don't know if they persist. Hence my hesitation to recommend this class of devices.

 

But yes, they provide volume control, balanced outs, etc. and could be more convenient than built-in headphone outs.

 

- Guru

[JeffLearman]

Good point. As it turns out, Behringer also has a downloadable ASIO driver. But my guess is it's a 16-bit interface (since I can't find any specs anywhere, that's a reasonable assumption.)

 

If you're going to spend money on an interface, you might as well get a 24-it one. With 24 bits, you don't have to sweat getting the levels perfect to get a decent recording; you can leave more headroom for safety and still get good results.

 

BTW, I use the builtin with ASIO4ALL on my Toshiba Satellite and can set it at the lowest latency (64 samples) and it works great: rock solid and doesn't hog CPU. ASIO4ALL isn't a problem, and apparently the builtin WDM drivers aren't bad either, when coupled with ASIO4ALL. One of these days I'll measure the latency, but it's academic since I can't feel it.

[JeffLearman]

Stokely makes a lot of excellent points. For example, with the live host I'm currently using (Cantabile) if I use a different USB port, Cantabile treats it as a different input altogether. When I added a MIDI hub to my setup, I faced having to reprogram all my racks to use the new inputs, including about a dozen MIDI CC maps. [i found a workaround using MIDIOX, but did have to reprogram stuff. But now I can switch ports and just change one thing in MIDIOX.]

 

I gigged with laptop for 5 or 6 years, but always with a keyboard with a decent piano and Rhodes that I could fall back on if the laptop yorked, and I did have to do that 2 or 3 times. Fortunately it was just blues so I could live without other sounds. In most cases it was because I used the laptop for everything, and my employer's IT frequently automatically installed security updates on it, which sometimes would goof up stuff that had been working perfectly.

 

One time it was a bluescreen and I just had to reboot and play piano meanwhile. One time it didn't work at all, all night (had to reinstall the audio software.) And I'm pretty sure one other time I had to play a set without the laptop. Meanwhile, other than breaking a tine on a Rhodes a couple times, I've never had a keyboard instrument fail, gigging for over 30 years. (Perhaps I've been lucky! knock on wood!)

 

So, if I planned to use a computer, I'd be sure to still have a fallback instrument just in case.

 

The impression I get is you're already gigging and just want to add a few laptop-based sounds, and that's the best case really.

[Ashville.Guru]

BTW, I use the builtin with ASIO4ALL on my Toshiba Satellite and can set it at the lowest latency (64 samples) and it works great: rock solid and doesn't hog CPU.

It's always easy to get some lightweight softsynths running @64 samples, even on a lower-specced machine. It's when you want to layer audio hogs and effects, that the wheat gets separated from the chaff.

 

The DawBench test results clearly demonstrate that good interfaces let you run heavier loads at lower buffer sizes.

 

One of these days I'll measure the latency, but it's academic since I can't feel it.

Of course you can't feel it. I've said this before: it's 2014, not 2004. Latency is no longer an issue with today's laptops. OTOH, audio load can still be - I speak from practical experience. I can't even think of running the loads I run @64 samples, without my FireWire interface.

 

- Guru

 

P. .S to everything @stokely said. It's good to have a realistic idea of what this route involves. It demands a certain aptitude and effort, and can be brutally unforgiving.

[wiggy80]

Some good info here, much appreciated...

 

Latency is important to me, at the minute I'm using the AISO4ALL driver on my desktop @64 samples and while most sounds I don't notice any latency, with the large sample size pianos I do notice it slightly.

 

Yes I am currently playing in live bands and wanting to use mainly the killer Hammond and VOX sounds from Vintage organs. I suppose I could order online from somewhere with a 30 day money back guarantee and try it out, see if its for me. If not, return it for a refund.

 

I'm in two minds again weather or not to go for the UR22 or try the Behringer and see how their drivers are.

 

If it is too much messing on stage i may just have to buy an SK1 or Nord electro, although they are a lot more expensive than this option.

[Stokely]

One thing I forgot to mention, but was a consideration for the types of (bar) gigs we do: logistics. Where to put the laptop that's safe (from the audience as well as other band members bumping it) was more of an issue than I'd like. Our stages occasionally are *very* small! If they bump my keyboards they will feel it more than my gear (and one trivial reason I don't like super-light keyboards, they fly off stands too easily).

 

No doubt though, there are excellent sounds to be had in the software realm.

 

 

[Ashville.Guru]

Latency is important to me, at the minute I'm using the AISO4ALL driver on my desktop @64 samples and while most sounds I don't notice any latency, with the large sample size pianos I do notice it slightly.

 

I'm in two minds again weather or not to go for the UR22 or try the Behringer and see how their drivers are.

Fortunately, at least some information is available - DawBench.com has compiled tests of interface latency performances (on Windows) click here for results and here for a discussion.

 

I'm surprised you could notice latency @64 samples but it's possible. It's easy to measure it objectively:

1. Use a controller with built in sounds.
   
2. Setup a separate stereo recording device (not the laptop that hosts softsynths).
   
3. One channel should be from the keyboard's built-in sounds, the other from the laptop.
   
4. Hit a key and record.
   

Now you can use any DAW, or the free Audacity to measure the difference between the hardware and VST. With my TC Desktop Konnekt 6, this is less than 4ms. Nope, can't notice it at all.

 

If it is too much messing on stage i may just have to buy an SK1 or Nord electro, although they are a lot more expensive than this option.

Shamelessly quoting myself from another thread:

 

The real, hidden cost of the laptop route is in the sheer number of man-hours you spend designing, mapping, troubleshooting, learning about stuff...

 

Behind every hardware keyboard is a team of dedicated engineers who've worked out a lot of tricky issues and made sure all the components work together in on compact instrument. With software, you're bringing together a laptop designed by one company, a host by another, controllers by others, and software instruments by several other companies. The onus is on *you* to make sure that they all work together in a critical live environment.

 

Factor in those hours and I'm betting that the hardware route is actually cheaper for most of us. Economics and quality of sounds are actually terrible reasons for choosing the laptop route. Sadly, these are the most common reasons why musos are interested in it.

 

So what is the laptop route good for? Freedom. Virtually unlimited freedom (see what I did there?) to get that perfect rig. The perfect action of your choice, the perfect sounds of your choice, in the perfect form factor/weight of your choice, the knobs/faders/controls of your choice, the ergonomics of your choice. And it's control heaven - as Jeff points out, there's nothing you can't do with a laptop rig. This freedom is the real advantage of a laptop rig, which no hardware can give you.

 

So it depends on how much you value this freedom, this choice. Are you willing to put up with the hassle, the effort, the time spent being an engineer and designer to get this perfect rig? Do you want it that badly? Then, and then only, is a laptop rig worth it. Otherwise, it's very, very wise to stick to hardware.

-Guru

[yannis D]

Some good info here, much appreciated...

 

Latency is important to me, at the minute I'm using the AISO4ALL driver on my desktop @64 samples and while most sounds I don't notice any latency, with the large sample size pianos I do notice it slightly.

 

Yes I am currently playing in live bands and wanting to use mainly the killer Hammond and VOX sounds from Vintage organs. I suppose I could order online from somewhere with a 30 day money back guarantee and try it out, see if its for me. If not, return it for a refund.

 

I'm in two minds again weather or not to go for the UR22 or try the Behringer and see how their drivers are.

 

If it is too much messing on stage i may just have to buy an SK1 or Nord electro, although they are a lot more expensive than this option.

 

Sorry to say but since you will only use hammond and vox sounds, why don't you go to the Electro road? You can find an E2 quite cheap and it will save you from many problems (cables running around, stability fears, etc). I find this solution much more practical and organic than carrying around a laptop, a sound interface, cables, usbs etc etc. I myself use my laptop - but not when only bread and butter sounds are required. Keep it simple on stage and concentrate more on your hands. My thouthgs.

[AnalogGuy1]

For example, with the live host I'm currently using (Cantabile) if I use a different USB port, Cantabile treats it as a different input altogether.

Not to hijack the thread, Brad added virtual ports to Cantable 3. You take your midi feeds from, for instance, a virtual midi port called "top keys" and "bottom keys", and then in just one box you tell it that "top keys" today means your Roland RD700GX on USB port 1, and tomorrow means something else. Very cool. (Although IMHO I don't think Cantable 3 is quite ready for release yet...I'm having fun with the beta though.)

[Analogaddict]

My advice would be to use a controller with built-in sounds. That way, you can get through the gig even if the laptop goes down.

[wiggy80]

Guys, Im just trying this out from my laptops headphone jack (haven't yet bought the UR22).

 

Im getting some random crackling that i don't get when i use my desktop, Im using the ASIO4ALL driver, could it be the laptop is under powered for the job? Its an Intel core2duo 1.87Ghz with 2GB of RAM. ive set the control panel power option to "performance"

 

If I bought the UR22 would it solve the crackling problem?

 

Any suggestions?

 

Thanks

[theshinenz]

no you need a higher spec PC, I would recommend at least a i5 PC with 8gb of RAM, the popping if because the CPU it not powerful enough.

[Ashville.Guru]

no you need a higher spec PC, I would recommend at least a i5 PC with 8gb of RAM, the popping if because the CPU it not powerful enough.

Quite possibly, but not necessarily.

 

Pop/crackles are caused by a combination of several factors:

• High audio load (not all softsynths are the same).
  
• Low buffer sizes
  
• Low specs - CPU/RAM
  
• Poor interface
  
• DPC issues (only on some laptops)
  

So to a limited extent, it is possible to compensate for a weak CPU by adding a powerful interface, increasing buffer size and reducing audio load. The last two involve compromising on latency and sound quality.

 

Here's an example. Using Pianoteq + headphone outs, you may get crackling at 128 samples with 128 note polyphony, but no crackling at 256 samples with 64 note polyphony. With the UR22, you might be able to run 128 samples at 64 note polyphony - thus reducing latency. Hope this makes it clearer!

 

BTW, What buffer size are you using, and what plugins? VB3 works well with lower-specced machines, if I'm not mistaken.

 

DPC latency is a completely separate issue. Some laptops have the issue, some don't, and processor specs have nothing to do with it. Download and run Latency Checker or Latencymon to check whether your system has this issue or not. If it does, no interface can solve the problem.

 

But yeah, if you want to run serious audio loads at low latencies, then a powerful processor is the way to go. And clock speed is more important than CPU generation. There are no easy, straightforward answers to whether an interface will help with your old laptop. Good luck!

 

- Guru

[Markay]

My experience with NI products is that they demand a lot of resources. If you plan to run these or other high end synths you will need a current generation high spec CPU, RAM and SSD.

 

I had a similar experience on a Core Duo with B4II and other Kontakt plugins.

 

VB3 hosted in Cantabile with other less demanding VST's worked perfectly.

[wiggy80]

I downloaded the latency checker that Guru suggested, there were a few spikes(not many) that were causing the crackles/drop-outs.

 

Ive made a few performance tweaks and disabled some drivers/services that i didn't need, i also disabled the anti virus. Its made an improvement, its still not perfect but its better than before.

 

Ive got an audition for a Queen tribute band in January so ill take it to that and try some of the Piano and DX7 sounds.

 

I guess really i could do with a more powerful laptop but ill try manage for now, im more of a desktop man but obviously cant take that to a gig,lol. Ill see how it goes.

 

Thanks for your help guys, its really appreciated

[mate stubb]

Nothing says "Queen" like DX7, I always say.