You too can be a musician in just 5 easy steps...

[SFOracle]

I have 2 boys, ages 2 1/2 and 2 months and both my wife and I are accomplished musicians (pianists/keyboard players primarily, but I also play guitar, sax and drums). Needless to say, in the next couple of years, we intend to introduce boys to piano lessons. My 2 1/2 year old can already play (very) simple melodies on a toy keyboard and is fascinated to watch me (and try and help me) play. I have no objection to kids learning to manipulate audio with loop based tools. Music has been going electronic since Les Paul's time and there is definitely a lot to be learned about recording, manipulating and re-mixing digital audio from this approach to "creating" music. But the technical skill to slice, dice, cut and paste clips of pre-recorded or sampled music is additional and optional to understanding, playing or creating music, it will never replace learning to play an instrument. Super Duper Loopers, and other "me too" products are not really going to introduce many children music in a lasting manner. I remember the Lowrey and Bontempi organs of the '70s with the color coded and numbered keys and the automatic accompanyment systems built in. While I was struggling with classical piano lessons, some smiling little brat could sit at the organ and play a one line melody of "You are My Sunshine" with their right hand while pressing the color coded accompanyment key with their left hand and presto - music. It may have impressed the hell out of the old ladies bridge club, but it never really introduced anyone to music. I don't know of anyone who learned to be a musician this way. The problem is; once you have mastered this relatively simple technique, there is no where to go from there (unless you turn off the accompanyment machine and start to learn how to really play the organ). Loop machines, groove boxes etc. have similar limitations. Now it is true, that in the hands of a skilled musician, loop based tools can be used to create music, but unless your kid learns at least some music theory (formally or not) and develop some technique (chops), on some instrument, he/she is not likely to create anything more interesting than "You are My Sunshine" for the bridge ladies. Don.

[Master Zap]

I think the most important if you want kids to be into music, to be perceptive to what [i]ignites THEM[/i]. I got to play flute, french horn, and trumpet in School. I was really good at it but I never [i]felt[/i] for it. So I quit. (My teacher practically begged me to continue, though... interesting memory that...) But then I bought a synth... and, well, the rest is history. I thought myself about chords and harmonies..stuff I *wanted* to know... I was never interested in playing "Wiegenlied" in church so the old ladies cried (I did, and they did, and it wasn't for me playing bad). I wanted to experiment with harmonies and sounds, neither of which you really can do on a trumpet, especially not when pieces of paper with dots on it is placed in front of you with a "play this" mentality. Too many children have been PUT OFF from music by traditional "piano lessons" et al. I think a lot of the "traditional" schooling system is totally far out wrong. This is where COMPUTERS come to the rescue. They have patience and work at the kids pace, and can teach the kid what the kid wants. I see my own children (3, 4.5 and 6.5) do amazing things with computers, the oldes reads and writes and draws and speaks a little english, a little danish, a little norweigean, a word or two in french... where did he learn it? COMPUTER GAMES!! He puts in a game and INTENTIIONALLY sets it to "French" and plays it in french mode! He's nutty that way [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] Anyway, my point is... keep the spark alive. It's *ALL* that matters. The rest can come later, and will come naturally. /Z

[SFOracle]

I have 2 boys, ages 2 1/2 and 2 months and both my wife and I are accomplished musicians (pianists/keyboard players primarily, but I also play guitar, sax and drums). Needless to say, in the next couple of years, we intend to introduce boys to piano lessons. My 2 1/2 year old can already play (very) simple melodies on a toy keyboard and is fascinated to watch me (and try and help me) play. I have no objection to kids learning to manipulate audio with loop based tools. Music has been going electronic since Les Paul's time and there is definitely a lot to be learned about recording, manipulating and re-mixing digital audio from this approach to "creating" music. But the technical skill to slice, dice, cut and paste clips of pre-recorded or sampled music is additional and optional to understanding, playing or creating music, it will never replace learning to play an instrument. Super Duper Loopers, and other "me too" products are not really going to introduce many children music in a lasting manner. I remember the Lowrey and Bontempi organs of the '70s with the color coded and numbered keys and the automatic accompanyment systems built in. While I was struggling with classical piano lessons, some smiling little brat could sit at the organ and play a one line melody of "You are My Sunshine" with their right hand while pressing the color coded accompanyment key with their left hand and presto - music. It may have impressed the hell out of the old ladies bridge club, but it never really introduced anyone to music. I don't know of anyone who learned to be a musician this way. The problem is; once you have mastered this relatively simple technique, there is no where to go from there (unless you turn off the accompanyment machine and start to learn how to really play the organ). Loop machines, groove boxes etc. have similar limitations. Now it is true, that in the hands of a skilled musician, loop based tools can be used to create music, but unless your kid learns at least some music theory (formally or not) and develop some technique (chops), on some instrument, he/she is not likely to create anything more interesting than "You are My Sunshine" for the bridge ladies. Don.

[thoughtintruder]

[quote]Originally posted by Rod CA: [b] I have many friends who started learning piano, and gotten turned off from music, even after years of playing, becuase the lessons were just plain dull. If they had options of how to get into music, would it be different? (I don't know) I had a lot of friends taking piano lessons when I was younger, and some (only a few?/most?) of their teachers had a method of teaching that was total verbal and mental abuse. A lot of parents can't do that. Buying a crappy upright and looking up a teacher's name in the yellow pages is not the best option, IMHO. [/b][/quote] Why do piano teachers and the like get such a bad rap? Maybe it's the feeling we get from DIY that inspires us....

[Steve LeBlanc]

I had nothing but excellent piano teachers...I remember them all fondly...they were all exceptional though...there's lots of bad teachers out there.

[Rod S]

[quote]Originally posted by thoughtintruder: [b] Why do piano teachers and the like get such a bad rap? Maybe it's the feeling we get from DIY that inspires us.... [/b][/quote] I don't want to imply that all teachers are bad. Many are very good, and do it for the love of music, and have a lot of patience with stubborn/obnoxious/nonpracticing students [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] I find that a lot of teachers just want people to become players, not musicians. They instruct students on how to play difficult pieces of music. Example : I had a friend of mine who was could play very difficult piano pieces (all classical). High school graduation, I decided to put a band together (all the guys I had played with were outside my school). We decide to do 'let it be' ... since I'm also a keyboard player, I told the guy to do the piano part, and I would just come just set my synth to an organ sound and figure something out (listening back to the tape recently I'm surprised how good it sounded [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] )I gave him the tape of the song.. he looked at me like I was an alien... I gave him the sheet music... he played exactly per the sheet music.. I ask him to 'improve' a bit on the sheet music, since it was a bit 'dry', the chord inversions weren't right.. he was lost. So I fixed the sheet music by hand, and gave it back to him. I mean, come on! That's a simple song. Free your mind. I've met many players like that. Is it a bad thing? I think so, but again it boils down to what you expect/want. If playing music means being able to play beautiful pieces of music composed hundred of years ago it's your choice. But that choice has to be made by the student, and not by the teacher. Music is supposed to be a creative thing, IMHO. How piano teachers go and say.. ok, here's a chord sequence. Play something around it. Just play... use your creativity. It really boils down to what you expect and what your goals are. There should be a balance. Regarding my comment about the piano teacher: Example : Father calls piano teacher in phone book.. meets her (let's assume it's a she)... she seems nice, polite, says she's taught a lot of students. Kid starts playing... looses interest after a few months. Teacher's fault or Student's fault? Someone like Steve can probably figure it out (my comment about being from a 'musical family'), (sorry Steve, not picking up on you, I'm just saying your kids are fortunate that they are being introduced to world of music with someone with knowledge and passion about it, and you're to a certain extent an exception) orient the kid but maybe another parent can't. Why not let the kid do his own exploring? My comment is that maybe traditional music education is not he best thing for everyone. I'll close with a few comments, not mine, from another topic, but a lot if applies, all of them from the fine people from this forum: [quote] [b]One thing about having your son learn keyboard. Remember to sit down with him and show him how to make music, don't show him any chords, scales, notes, sheet music, or theory, that can all come later. Just sit down with him and make and play music. Those future piano lessons can kill all desire to continue so if he has a good foundation in playing and making music outside of them, he'll have a better foundation to make it through the desire killing piano lessons. I personally, wouldn't have made it through all my piano lessons if my mom hadn't sat down with me when I was young and just played the piano with me. No theory, no sheet music, nothing, just my mom and I playing stuff on the piano.[/b][/quote] [quote][b] Bullseye! right on target [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] Be VERY careful with young children, having a not so good teacher who puts pressure on the kid will absolutely kill the desire. I know a guitarist who is a children's psychologist by profession and he says: sending a young kid to violin, piano or whatever lessons is ill-treatment most of the time, before the kid has the age of 12 it will hate the instrument.[/b][/quote]

[Steve LeBlanc]

Good quotes...I don't even sit my child at the piano...it's just there and he wants to touch it and make music with it cause he loves music. When I'm playing piano sometimes he'll climb up next to me and jam a little but he spends more time on it by himself. I don't know if he'll still be into playing music later...I'm not going to force my idea of what's right and wrong when it comes to playing...I just make the instruments available to him. In a few years he'll either lose interest or ask me for more knowledge and for a teacher. My mom never had to force me to go to piano lessons...I was always eager to learn all I could (I started lessons at age 5)...she did have to force me to practice though and I really love her for that. But back on topic...if I had a computer/box that made the music for me I don't know if my desire to learn technique, etc. would have been so strong. I just don't know. Zap might argue that technical ability is a waste of time...I think it's essential...but I'm a young 29 year old dinosaur I guess [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] This message has been edited by Steve LeBlanc on 08-08-2001 at 07:33 PM

[Master Zap]

Well, yes, I might argue technical ability is a waste of time. If you play a lot it'll come to you anyway. The way I've seen piano teachers... *STARTING* the poor kids with meaningless pointless "technique" drivel and "posture" shit is just beyond dumb. Take that along the road. It's like typing. I have NEVER learned to type, ever. When I went to school I did the electronics/telecom branch, and those who did the economic branch got typing lessons. I was for one reason or other in their typing room, and I sat down and I typed circles around all the students, and nowdays I promise you I'll type figure eights around their [i]teacher[/i]. Why? Because I am at a computer, typing code, all freaki'n DAY. Nobody ever taught me how to put my fingers to type my fingers told me what was the most efficient way [i]for me[/i]. It came by doing, not by "practicing". I was a good programmer WAY before I was a monster typist. I think the same thing should apply to music lessons. Teaching piano players to play old music from days gone is neat, but it's the equivalent of telling a typist to type out the complete works of Shakespear. How fun is that? Not at all. How creative? Absolute Zero. If you want to copy shakespear, use a computer, or an infinite number of monkeys, whatever works [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] [quote]I ask him to 'improve' a bit on the sheet music, since it was a bit 'dry', the chord inversions weren't right.. he was lost[/quote] EX-friggin-ACTLY! My wife went through 13 years of piano school. She can sight-play quite a bit. She played Rachmaninov at her peak. Still, when we met and I told her "play a G minor" she had to *think* quite a bit to do it. That STUNNED me. She plays these huge pieces, but she sees only "notes", not "harmonies". I play Bach's toccata and fugue in D-minor and my brain and fingers "see" the harmonies/chords (and they scream at Bach "enough with these same two chords already!" [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img] ) but when she plays it she just sees.. notes. When I play a song I can substitute a chord realtime coz my fingers didnt stretch just like that just now. She stops and fixes it to fit the dots. [b]And most importantly of all[/b] She can play almost anything all by herself. Start a simple drummachine, or even a meteronome, and tell her "play to this", [i]and she can't do it[/i]. That not only STUNNED me at first but it FLOORED me completely. For me, playing *to* a beat is so natural that its completely crazy. Every time I play I do have a beat in my head going anyway... so when there is a 1 1/2 bar of rests in a sheet I really wait for 1 1/2 bar - when she plays she sees 1 1/2 bar of breaks and just waits a little - 90% of the time far too short. Of course, this is all how she was before I met her and we started tinkering together. Now only the other night we were toying along singing "My Way" and I was trying to play the chords from some song book thingy, and she shoved me to the side and played instead of me coz I screwed up so badly trying to find some Bbsus4 chord fingering crap and lost my place in the tabs [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] /Z

[TubeDude]

I don't care what anyone makes or how easy it was making it. Truth is, I work hard for what I produce and it has GOT to be MUCH more satsifying that anything someone could ever make with a loop program. I could go nuts on a loopbased program I've never used and in 1 day be making great use of it, but it wouldnt be all too satisfying. Lets see someone make good use of a guitar in 2 days. Nope, not happening. That stuff is fun, but when it comes to true musical skills, well... you are either born with it, or you wish you were. Period. Let em have fun. Maybe it'll increase the chances of me actually meeting someone SOMEWHERE that can carry on a conversation about something remotely interesting to me and not car rims and shit. Ya know? If this stuff was only around when I was 16, though! [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img] Heres a taste of my stuff, the site and band name and song name I just made up to toss it on MP3. Ya might like it, I dunno. [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] http://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26196 Peace! This message has been edited by TubeDude on 08-09-2001 at 04:57 AM

[miroslav]

[quote]Originally posted by SFOracle: [b]...Super Duper Loopers, and other "me too" products are not really going to introduce many children music in a lasting manner. I remember the Lowrey and Bontempi organs of the '70s with the color coded and numbered keys and the automatic accompaniment systems built in. While I was struggling with classical piano lessons, some smiling little brat could sit at the organ and play a one line melody of "You are My Sunshine" with their right hand while pressing the color coded accompaniment key with their left hand and presto - music. It may have impressed the hell out of the old ladies bridge club, but it never really introduced anyone to music. I don't know of anyone who learned to be a musician this way. The problem is; once you have mastered this relatively simple technique, there is no where to go from there (unless you turn off the accompaniment machine and start to learn how to really play the organ). Loop machines, groove boxes etc. have similar limitations. Now it is true, that in the hands of a skilled musician, loop based tools can be used to create music, but unless your kid learns at least some music theory (formally or not) and develop some technique (chops), on some instrument, he/she is not likely to create anything more interesting than "You are My Sunshine" for the bridge ladies.[/b][/quote] Yes...pretty much what I've been saying from the start. Some folks are arguing that ANYTHING is OK as long as it "gets kids into music"...and that they would rather see kids play with the Super Duper Music Looper than a Nintendo game. Well...if you reduce the Super Duper...to "just a game" for kids to have "fun playing with"...than it IS nothing more than a toy...just like the Nintendo. So, what's the difference...let them play, they ARE JUST KIDS as some of you keep implying...they need to have FUN, not some rigorous discipline/training on some traditional instrument... r-i-g-h-t?… [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] Yes and no... I know some of you feel that improvisation and creativity will get you there, so why put all this effort into practice and discipline? OK...I too followed that path once. All those classical music pieces and finger training exercises...YUK!!!...I just wanted to jam and improvise...be creative. Well, I've accomplished a lot on my own without all the practice, practice, practice...but I would have accomplished so much more had I stuck to that god-awful classical training regimen...my old teachers were right, I was wrong. Funny though...when I was young...when I was a kid...I KNEW I WAS RIGHT...I was more focused on the fun/creative stuff, and now my playing/theory is not where it could have been...where I wish it was. I can still do a lot with just creativity and the limited training that I did have, but having those classical/traditional fundamentals down REAL solid, sure would save my ass at times, AND… also cut down on the time it takes on occasion to figure out those "tricky parts", AND… also to explore compositional areas that I couldn't do, without those fundamentals. Most instruments have been around for a very long time...and yet most competent teachers of today and yesterday follow the SAME BASIC FUNDAMENTALS during the early years of training (especially when you are a child). I get the feeling that some folks today are trying to second guess those tried and true teaching methods. My whole point is and has been about SHORT CUTS...they are very inviting, I've taken them myself, but to truly appreciate a short cut...you really should know what the long, hard road is like first. I can confidently say that all those musicians that have taken the long hard road and first nailed down those traditional fundamentals will now agree that it was the right path...though I'm sure when they were 8-9 years old, they too just wanted to have fun, and forget all that damn practice. There certainly are "natural musicians"...they play like there's no tomorrow, without ever having any formal training...but they are the exception not the norm. If you or your kids are interested in music seriously(key word), then discipline is important...YES even for kids...after they "eat their vegetables", "do their chores", and "practice those finger exercises"...THEN they can go play and have fun too. Who's in charge anyway, the 6-year-old or the parent? [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] I also see the focus behind Sonic Foundry's release of the Super Duper…it is targeted marketing…"if we can hook 'em when they're young, then they will maybe go with our full-blown products as they get older"…I don't think anyone there really said, "hey, this will be a great program to teach kids music fundamentals". Now, I'm not faulting SF for their marketing strategy…I'm just pointing out that they realized that there are a LOT of "instant gratification" mentalities out there, that have emerged mostly in the last few generations. So…they are ready and willing to feed that hunger even further…they are not alone, they are not totally at fault…each new generations wants *it* quicker, easier, and to last longer…which in itself is not a bad thing, but most of those people also don't want to work too hard at getting "it". OK…I'll stop for a bit…anyone else? [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

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[quote]Originally posted by miroslav: [b]I know some of you feel that improvisation and creativity will get you there, so why put all this effort into practice and discipline? OK...I too followed that path once. All those classical music pieces and finger training exercises...YUK!!!...I just wanted to jam and improvise...be creative. Well, I've accomplished a lot on my own without all the practice, practice, practice...but I would have accomplished so much more had I stuck to that god-awful classical training regimen...my old teachers were right, I was wrong. [/b][/quote] But... you're never too old to learn theory, learn fundamentals, or to practice. When I was a little kid and took piano lessons, I pretty much *HATED* them, until I talked my folks and my piano teacher into incorporating a songbook with popular music into the lessons. So I played both classical music (and did all the exercises) *AND* I learned some cheesy pop tunes of the day. When I was a teen, I stopped taking lessons for a few years and only did the kind of music I wanted to do -- which was (can you guess?) pop music. When I started getting serious about pursuing a career path in music, I started taking lessons again [i]because I *wanted* to learn[/i] and started getting back into the technique and classical end of things again. In college... Heck, I played more classical and learned more theory than I ever wanted to. But I'm really glad all the theory was presented to me [i]when I was genuinely interested in learning it[/i] rather than force-fed to me as a kid... It probably would have turned me off to music forever. In a sense, learning theory and THEN learning how to play is kind of like putting the cart before the horse -- you have to develop a passion for music and playing before you can be genuinely interested in learning how things work behind the scenes. Granted, now that I know theory, it makes it a lot easier to learn new instruments... But for a first instrument for a kid, I think it's probably a better idea to develop a real sense of satisfaction out of playing the instrument before getting theoretical. So I don't think Super Duper Looper and its ilk aren't the end of music as we know it... It's a toy -- probably a powerful one -- but it can help gain experience in just [i]one[/i] area of musical knowledge... Engineering. Even if a kid who grows up on the Super Duper Looper never goes on to play a real instrument, s/he might at least be able to record (and edit) others who do. This message has been edited by popmusic on 08-09-2001 at 10:43 AM

[Master Zap]

[quote] Who's in charge anyway, the 6-year-old or the parent [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img][/quote] You obviously dont have kids of your own? [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/eek.gif[/img] /Z

[miroslav]

Sounds like you and I traveled similar paths, popmusic...hehehe I've considered formal lessons again for piano or guitar, but man there's not enough hours in the day!!! Musically, I spend most of my time focused on the production aspect of music, and alas...my playing is just there to feed the production sometimes. [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/frown.gif[/img] Don't get me wrong, I won't just throw some crap down so I can proceed with the production of a tune, but I seem to only play when I need to record something...and I don't sit down and JUST PLAY anymore...well I wan't to, but I need about 3-4 hours added to the day. Hmmm...could we do a 30 hour day insted of the 24 hour thing...? [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] I also thought about getting into a band/live gig again...mostly for fun and to improve chops...not to make money, but...there's that 24 hour thing again that gets in the way,...and I'm already steeling from my "sleep time" way too much...not a good thing! Hey...maybe that Super Duper Music Looper IS what I really need....to help me cut down on my creative/production time, and then I can get back to those fundamentls and theory...practice, practice, practice... [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] This message has been edited by miroslav on 08-09-2001 at 11:14 AM

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[quote]Originally posted by miroslav: [b]I've considered formal lessons again for piano or guitar, but man there's not enough hours in the day!!! Musically, I spend most of my time focused on the production aspect of music, and alas...my playing is just there to feed the production sometimes. [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] [/b][/quote] Well, that's what I realized about my guitar playing around November of last year... I knew the basics of playing guitar, but when it came to a recording situation (I was all revved up and ready to start writing/recording), my playing was... not where I wanted it to be. So I took (and am kind of still taking) a sabbatical from recording. I wanted to get better at playing not just my own stuff, but more importantly, songs that I enjoy and am influenced by. I've also made a conscious effort to play with other folks... Feeding off of other musicians is a great feeling, and it's all too infrequent if you have a home studio. I figure that I'd like to get better at playing guitar so I would have something [i]worth[/i] recording. I've come to the conclusion that I personally don't like recordings which are edited down to the smallest little detail. (And I've made more than a few recordings this way.) I enjoy hearing recordings with natural-sounding performances (very little punching in), and maybe even a few mistakes here and there. To get that kind of sound (minus the mistakes), practicing is the key. It's been almost a year since I decided to focus almost solely on practicing... I'm definitely no Les Paul, and I still have a long way to go, but my playing has improved to the point where I'm closer to where I want to be for recording purposes. Or maybe I really haven't improved much -- maybe I just got more confident. Two funny things have happened in the meantime, though... 1) I found that I really love playing guitar. Before, I only *liked* it, and my initial motivation for learning was to have a certain kind of sound in my productions that wasn't there before. (Ever try to imitate an acoustic guitar strum with samples? Yeeechhhh!!!!) 2) I started recording something this week... And I didn't mean to start recording anything until I moved into a house. (I live in an apartment, and I have to keep the noise down.) The guitar parts... Well, nobody's gonna confuse them with a session musician, but I think they work well for the kind of music I'm doing. So much for my sabbatical. [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] Sorry if this is getting too far away from the original topic... It's just that I know exactly you're coming from, and I had to comment. What you're looking for *can* be done, and you *can* do it even if you don't have as much free time as you'd really like, but it does take commitment, a change of focus, and perhaps a little time away from your DAW. [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] This message has been edited by popmusic on 08-09-2001 at 11:54 AM

[miroslav]

I'd like a LOT of time away from my DAW! It can become such a habit...digital junkies! [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/eek.gif[/img]

[strat0124]

I built a little home studio to make it easier to record or rehearse, but my problem is finding the time to record. I never have the time these days, and because I play almost every weekend, those days are shot. So recording time is at a premium. I'm looking at four days at the end of the month I have open, but you never know in my household what the next "adventure" is gonna be.

[Steve LeBlanc]

[quote]But... you're never too old to learn theory, learn fundamentals, or to practice.[/quote] Well, yeah this is true I guess...but Theory/Fundamentals aren't fun when you're an adult...I worked as an assistant English teacher at an adult school once...It's VERY difficult to teach adults ANYTHING...or even teenagers for that matter. I LOVED learning to read music, finger technique and classical style pieces of music when I was young. I was lucky to have progressive teachers who were able to go beyond Bach (which I think is essential learning by the way) and teach Bartok, Debussy, etc. If the children show any serious interest in music, I think you really owe it to them to add discipline to that experience at a young age...I think they'll thank you for it like I thank my Mother everyday. Almost all of the technical ability I have was learned before I was 13...I got into heavier concepts in my later teens but the bulk of what I know now was learned very early on. I was NEVER frustrated on the piano when it came to technique. I picked up the Guitar when I was in my 20s and everytime I play the thing I feel very uncomfortable with my technique...this doesn't exist on the piano...the piano is like riding a bike or reading for me because I learned all three at around the same time [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] You can argue this stuff is worthless all you want but I think the truth is pretty much self-evident. I'd be willing to admit I'm wrong but no one in this or any other thread has come close to proving otherwise... This message has been edited by Steve LeBlanc on 08-09-2001 at 01:08 PM

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[quote]Originally posted by Steve LeBlanc: [b] Well, yeah this is true I guess...but Theory/Fundamentals aren't fun when you're an adult...I worked as an assistant English teacher at an adult school once...It's VERY difficult to teach adults ANYTHING...or even teenagers for that matter. [/b][/quote] The reason is probably because children (in general) aren't afraid to fail. Adults get hung up on the whole "what if I make a fool out of myself" or "what will other people think" thing... Personally, the reason I keep learning new things (I've started to learn drums in the last year, and hopefully violin sometime soon) is because I'm always curious and I really don't care if I make a fool out of myself -- as demonstrated by some of my posts on this board. [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]

[miroslav]

[quote]Originally posted by popmusic: [b]...children (in general) aren't afraid to fail. Adults get hung up on the whole "what if I make a fool out of myself"...[/b][/quote] Well then...I guess most of us here are still just kids... [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] So...strat0124 complains about too much live playin' time and not enough studio, and some of us would like to trade recording time for some giging and jammin'... ...it's that damn greener grass over there...yeah over there on the other side... [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] Even though I would like to play more...I love my time in the studio...slowly constructing a tune from scratch, molding it track by track...spending 16+ hours at a clip with just food and potty breaks...totally oblivious to the world outside. Man I love that shit!!! I always get a kick out of "outside people" trying to "break through" to me during those long sessions...it's like...I see their lips move, but I never hear a thing they say...I just nod... [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] <<"...If the children show any serious interest in music, I think you really owe it to them to add discipline to that experience at a young age...I think they'll thank you for it like I thank my Mother everyday...">> I hear you Steve...there ain't no short cuts!

[the stranger]

IMO, some of ya'll are missing a very important aspect of ACID. Sure, it's a loop program, but it is totally useless unless you have the musical sense to make it work. It's just like writing a good song in any other manner. You have to know how to make the whole greater then the sum of it's parts. What about a composer that uses paper and a pencil, doesn't play a single instrument, but has the skill to create wonderful music? And ACID can be easy. When I use it it isn't easy, because I don't settle for anything but perfection. So, it may be easy to use the software, but that doesn't mean it's easy to write a good song. P.S. Just for the record, I play guitar, drums, bass, and more. I only recently got into the ACID thing. It is great for creating backdrops for solo guitar. [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

[Master Zap]

[quote]Well then...I guess most of us here are still just kids[/quote] Isnt that what separates the Average Joe and us Immortals? I mean in general? [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] /Z

[Mr Darling]

So what is the issue here? Did you actoualy learned playing guitar and keys to become a rock star or do you simply enjoy music? Are you afried that with this tools kids will be able to make better music then you? (we all know that crap music is done also in the best equipt studio with great musicans) If there is any kind of music talnet the tool of choice is irelevent, if good music will come from it - I don't really care how they did it. If it's crap I don't care at all [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] Just my 2cents ------------------ Visit http://www.DarlingNikkie.com/sounds for free MP3's

[miroslav]

[quote]Originally posted by dr destructo: [b]IMO, some of ya'll are missing a very important aspect of ACID. Sure, it's a loop program, but it is totally useless unless you have the musical sense to make it work. It's just like writing a good song in any other manner. You have to know how to make the whole greater then the sum of it's parts.[/b][/quote] No...I actually support your point, and further expand mine to say that many new generations are being "fooled" into thinking that they CAN become good musicians and write REAL music with these types of tools. For someone that has serious musical chops/knowledge, they already know the value of theory and practice, and these tools are then utilized with that knowledge already under their belt.

[miroslav]

[quote]Quotes originally posted by Mr Darling:[/quote] [b]So what is the issue here?[/b] The false belief that short cuts will get you *there*. [b]Did you actually learned playing guitar and keys to become a rock star or do you simply enjoy music?[/b] When I started taking lessons the term "rock star" wasn't coined yet...so no...it was because I had an interest and love of music. However, as we get older, were all a little guilty of looking in the mirror and playing a few "air guitar" chords, just to see what we look like. [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] SO...it's OK to "simply enjoy music"...AND ALSO...be a successful "rock star". Why do some people continue to try and keep these two separate??? [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/frown.gif[/img] [b]Are you afraid that with this tools kids will be able to make better music then you? (we all know that crap music is done also in the best equipped studio with great musicians)[/b] When all the "one click" toys have become boring to many of these kids...I will still be making music...so am I scared...? [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/eek.gif[/img] The sad part is that the KIDS will think that they ARE making better/real music with these short cuts. When instead they are just regurgitating someone else's work and then calling it "original"... [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/frown.gif[/img] [b]If there is any kind of music talent the tool of choice is irrelevant, if good music will come from it - I don't really care how they did it.[/b] Ahhh...the end justifies the means. Well, I agree that some folks are naturally talented and nothing can keep them down...but I also notice that there sure IS a lot of lousy music that is being accepted by the newer generations as GOOD. Short cuts are becoming the norm, instant gratification is the goal...not long term career/talent development and some real staying power. I just feel that if we adults, give kids the "green light" to taking a lot of short cuts in life, forgetting about fundamentals that require some hard work and practice, and focusing only on instant gratification...we are NOT doing these kids any favors. Time will tell...won't it? Can I hear a bit from parents of 8-16 year olds please...how ya' doin' with those...*values*...? "…here we go loop de loop…"