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Here is an "intersting" new product from Sonic Foundry..this is an excerpt from an e-mail they sent me today. [b]Sonic Foundry's Super Duper Music Looper lets budding musicians and composers make their own music in minutes! It's a fun, exciting program that young music makers will love. Only $29.95 from Sonic Foundry. http://www.sonicfoundry.com/promo.asp?keycode=6695 Based on our award-winning ACID program, Super Duper Music Looper has core ACID functionality, but in a simplified, kid-friendly interface. We've taken the basic elements of ACID and created a product that will let music makers of every age click, paint, and play their way to creating fun music! It's the perfect music creation tool for young composers and performers ages 6 - 10 and beyond.[/b] The Super Duper Music Looper... Oh boy...lets bring in a whole new generation of short-cut-wanna-be-musicians that just DON'T PLAY A FUCKING THING, but are convinced that they ARE musicians because they "create" "new" "music". Will we be able to put out an entire album from start to finish with just one mouse click one of these days.??? H-E-L-P!!! I'm thinking of selling my guitars and keys...are they becoming obsolete? [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/frown.gif[/img] This message has been edited by miroslav on 08-07-2001 at 11:40 AM

miroslav - miroslavmusic.com

 

"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."

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Heh. Reminds me of in the mid 80's when Elton John's former drummer Nigel Olssen did ads for Mattel Synsonics drums. Remember them? Nigel: "This is me after years of practice!" [recording of drum fill plays] Nigel: "And this is you after just a few minutes with Mattel Synsonics!" [recording of the exact same fill on Synsonics] I couldn't BELIEVE a drummer went so far as to do that. I was mortified. So were all my drummer friends. And yeah, Mattel sold a shitload of those things, and yeah, a lot of the kids who bought them probably went on to be those evil drum-machine-programming types. [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] But it's not as if real drums and real drummers have actually become obsolete, although for awhile there in the 80's we were all seriously afraid that they would. I suspect this loopy-thingy will fill a similar niche... sure it will create a lot of wannabees but kids who really know what's going on will still learn to play instruments. --Lee
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I'm just not happy at this attemt to invent "short-cuts" to creating music and possibly even to achieving fame and fortune using these "one-click" "creative" tools. I wonder if attendance at elementary or high schoolmusic programs is up, down or even. What about private music schools/lessons...are kids thinking they might not need to do that anymore in order to becoome a "rock star"? "Why, I can just buy one of these "one-click" gizmos and I can make all kinds of great music!" Boo hoo... [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/frown.gif[/img]

miroslav - miroslavmusic.com

 

"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."

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maybe this is the begining of the end.....er....another step towards the end of looping as we know it. in my opinion, looping is becoming obsolete. i find it hard to take looping seriously as it is becoming asmost too easy to do it nowa days. theres a lot more to making good music than a computer looping program and a loop library. loop software or not, it takes a lot of hard work and skill to produce something that will stand out from the rest of the hurd and actually go somewhere. SactoG
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Well, ya gotta consider who the target audience is for this product: Kids. On the positive side, it helps them with computer literacy skills and gets them doing something with audio/music. Also on the positive side, it takes away the mystery of, like, how a hip hop producer might loop some funk tune from the '70s and call it a new "song". If anything, if there are a lot of products like this for kids, either it'll kill the market for music that uses loops in a non-creative manner (which is good!) or it might eventually lead to some sort of new electronic music breakthrough... Who knows? The kids that stick with it and get really serious about it might start wanting real instruments played by humans anyway... At least, that's been my experience. Anything that inspires the love of music [i]or audio[/i] in kids is fine by me. This particular product is not like teaching a kid to be a musician (an instrument would do that), but an audio engineer. I wish they had toys like that when I was a kid. [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]
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[quote]Originally posted by Lee Flier: [b]Heh. Reminds me of in the mid 80's when Elton John's former drummer Nigel Olssen did ads for Mattel Synsonics drums. Remember them? Nigel: "This is me after years of practice!" [recording of drum fill plays] Nigel: "And this is you after just a few minutes with Mattel Synsonics!" [recording of the exact same fill on Synsonics] I couldn't BELIEVE a drummer went so far as to do that. I was mortified. So were all my drummer friends. And yeah, Mattel sold a shitload of those things, and yeah, a lot of the kids who bought them probably went on to be those evil drum-machine-programming types. [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] But it's not as if real drums and real drummers have actually become obsolete, although for awhile there in the 80's we were all seriously afraid that they would. I suspect this loopy-thingy will fill a similar niche... sure it will create a lot of wannabees but kids who really know what's going on will still learn to play instruments. --Lee[/b][/quote] I brought my son (whose name is also Nigel) to see him do a drum clinic....he's a very bare bones drummer, nothing fancy. But solid and steady. He's also pretty down to earth, he talked to me for thirty minutes or so about his own son, who is also a drummer, like my son. I imagine he was taking money ANYWHERE he could find it....anybody ever work as a sideman? It ain't the best living in the world, my experience was with a gospel singing quartet...they paid us squat. But anyhow, old Nigel is doing clinics, so that ought to tell you how good Elton was paying him.
Down like a dollar comin up against a yen, doin pretty good for the shape I'm in
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On the other hand.... I imagine there's at least a few people who at a younger age, bought a "paint-by-numbers" set, and enjoyed the process so much they went on to painting their own works, either as an enjoyable avocation or even a career. What's the harm in showing a beginner how different parts of music go together to make a whole? Those with the inclination will become bored with the "beginner's set" and go on to learn to make music themselves, those less inclined will have had some fun and may even recognize true musical ability on the radio that they wouldn't have before. Just my $.02

Botch

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Are you guys worried about loosing your gig to some kid working with loops?? Don't quit your day job [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] But seriously. I agree with the guys that have said that if it gets kids closer to music, the more the merrier. I've seen many kids get turned of from music due to boring and strict piano lessons. You just gotta find the balance. My 1st keyboard was one of the stupid casio vl tone things. I would sit down and figure out short melodies before I even knew what a C sharp or an A flat was. What ever works for you.

Korg Kronos X73 / ARP Odyssey / Motif ES Rack / Roland D-05 / JP-08 / SE-05 / Jupiter Xm / Novation Mininova / NL2X / Waldorf Pulse II

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The biggest problem with this program is that the only way to get vocals recorded into it is with Mr. Microphone [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/redface.gif[/img] ------------------ ----------- KHAN (Always hopeful, yet discontent) [url=http://www.floydtribute.hpwebhost.com]www.floydtribute.hpwebhost.com[/url]
So Many Drummers. So Little Time...
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<> Bingo. Programs like this are GREAT -- do you think we're better off as musicians if kids play with Super Duper Looper or play with Game Boys? It gets them into music, just like the keyboards with the keys that light up. Some will become bored. Some will get more interested and want to do more. But the main thing is that Sonic Foundry is helping to create an audience that will be able to appreciated GOOD loop-based music because they'll know what's involved in making it. And they'll be able to differentiate between the "put-it-together-in-15-minutes-to-make-some-bucks" artists and those who genuinely love what they do and do it from the heart. Any thing that makes kids want to play music is good.
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for the record i got into music in a way youde all laugh at no doubt for a few months id messed around just in Cool Edit Pro, cut n paste stuff i was getting into raves, and learnt to dj whilst playing also with this 'great new program' REBIRTH i got over dj'ing, due to the glamour attatched to it. i was having more fun making my own tracks in Rebirth unlike most though, i realised how boring rebirth is and got this GREAT NEW PROGRAM called ACID fast forward time and i bought a sound module/sequencer fast forward again and here i am at the Conservatorium of Music studying Music Technology. i have a drum kit, sampler, two powerful pcs, sound modules, guitars, keybboards etc etc etc. i play them all and others to verying degrees of skill and i owe it all to those ENTRY LEVEL but still very FUNCTIONAL programs think about it. why ego trip because we use cubase and pro tools or habe SSL's or something.... you know i music tool is a music tool. whilst the trend is leaning towards 'NOW,EASY,INSTANT,COOL,DJ' it will even out a bit i think. and if all these people suddenly tuned into making music, LIKE ME, go on, LIKE ME, to further their musical education, i think its great but dont take anything i say too seriously. im constantly reminding myself i know very little (as should we all) in the grand scheme of audio. no matter how many years i dedicated to it, or how many releases and gigs ive had, there is always so much to learn.
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I do agree with ROD, POPMUSIC and CRAIG: Those programs will reveal a whole new world to Kids... I am a (Sonic Foundry) ACID user and I love it. When I first saw it, I was somehow excited because of it easiness of use AND Worried because of its easiness of use... understand? I was getting jealous and nervous in the same way most of you are right now... DJ's calling theirselves "musicians" was a close nightmare... It actually happened, but have not perceived a lot of new DJ's leaving real musicians unemployed. I just became a tool. Great producers around the globe use those tools with sucess. A lot of people is creating crap with it, the only difference is that they make their crap easier... Tools are just tools... Knowledge and Virtuosity have no replacement. ------------------ [b]Gustavo G Lozada[/b] Moderador de: [url=http://www.musicplayer.com/nuestroforo]MusicPlayer.com/NuestroForo[/url] [i] "La voz en Español en Música y Tecnología"[/i] [url=http://www.mp3.com/trax_mx]GusTraX[/url] @yahoo.com

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What I think we're starting to see is that, the power to create music/audio easily will be put into *anybody's* hands, even those who consider themselves non-musicians. MIDI and the cheapie Casio/Yamaha keyboards in the '80s were the first step in this direction, but I think we're probably headed towards a much bigger wave of cheap electronic noisemakers marketed toward the general public. Things like the Super Duper Looper and the mod-tracking software on the Playstation are probably the tip of the iceberg. I see good things coming out of this. It definitely takes away some studio mystique for the general public (wait until they release a karaoke machine with AutoTune!). If the public knows how the tricks are done, many musicians and audiences won't be as impressed with the technology end... The focus will be more on [i]the music[/i] rather than the tools used to create it, I think. This message has been edited by popmusic on 08-08-2001 at 02:21 AM
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I just got the email too. I thought miroslav had changed the name as a joke. Well, it's a kid product, so that explains the silly name. There was actually an interesting article on electronic musician a few months back about the current 'toys'.... there's some drum toys which sound pretty damn good. I wish I had this stuff to play when I was a kid. As a future parent (hopefully), I think the responsability will eventually lie on me to try to steer my kid in the right direction. Give him options but also advice on where he can go with it. Karaoke with Autotune. Now that would be one good use for auto tune. [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] I think every new technology provides some *evil* side effect. Can we blaim obesity on cable TV? [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] Blame the internet on low productivity on companies? It's ultimately up to us how we use and abuse new technology.

Korg Kronos X73 / ARP Odyssey / Motif ES Rack / Roland D-05 / JP-08 / SE-05 / Jupiter Xm / Novation Mininova / NL2X / Waldorf Pulse II

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I started out with Acid Music and think it's the best entry tool for recording in DAW. Now........ Mac PT Mix Plus It's great to see budding new song writers, now I can see more future clients happening. Think I'll buy somemore farm cards and build somemore rooms to teach how to use their new "fruit looper". This is a great time to refine your craft guys. Remember "MASTERING" not everyone can do it. What about a good mic, mixer, speakers. You'll need more than pocket money to buy these. Sometimes it's easier to play the instrument than try to trim a loop to sync. What about midi, I used to use only loops before I discovered midi. Now I have about 4 sound modules maxed out with expansion cards. But there's nothing like a real drummer....sorry....good real drummer. Singers.......there's alot that not even auto tune can help. Nick
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Hey...nothing wrong with putting music into kid's hands...instead of some bad habits...not my point. I don't have any kids, but if I did, I would rather buy them a guitar, or get them some piano lessons or some other R-E-A-L instruments so they can L-E-A-R-N to really play M-U-S-I-C. I would also turn them on to everything from Bach to B.B. King... ...THAT would be the true path toward learning and appreciating music and maybe...becoming a real musician in the process...not the "Super Duper Music Looper". There have been a lot of "music" "toys" for boys and girls between the ages of x-x...that kinda' get young kids, sorta' into music. I just don't think that the best way to open a 6-10 year old child's mind to music, is by starting them off on computer driven loop based "music creating" program. Besides, Sonic Foundry states that this is a [i]"music creation tool for young composers and performers ages 6 - 10 and beyond"[/i]so they are not thinking just kids. My old piano teacher is probably rolling over in her grave (hmmm don't realy know if she is dead...well, you know what I mean). So...of course it's not a bad thing to get kids into music ANY WAY we can, but this would not be my first, second, third...etc. choice. You folks with kids...do what you think is best. I would rather see them first focus on music fundamentals with real instruments. If they THINK they are achieving true musicianship and artistic creativity with some "one click" toy...how you ever gonna' get them to pick up a real instrument and become proficient at it??? That's some pretty thin ice... Worst thing you can do is FIRST show someone a "short cut" to something and THEN try to get them to go the long way...especially kids. Think about it…

miroslav - miroslavmusic.com

 

"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."

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[quote]Originally posted by miroslav: [b]I don't have any kids[/b][/quote] Hey you wanna borrow some for a while? Got two teenagers and two suitcases!!!!! : )
Down like a dollar comin up against a yen, doin pretty good for the shape I'm in
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[quote]Originally posted by miroslav: [b]I would rather buy them a guitar, or get them some piano lessons or some other R-E-A-L instruments so they can L-E-A-R-N to really play M-U-S-I-C. I would also turn them on to everything from Bach to B.B. King... [/b][/quote] Agreed -- but this software isn't about music... it's about audio. It's about training kids to become good at manipulating audio. It's Pro Tools for kids. The only way a manufacturer can sell this kind of software to non-techie parents is to make them think it's just like a musical instrument. But it's really a "DAW lite" kind of thing we're talking about, not a replacement for a piano. Heck, if synthesizers, samplers, and MIDI couldn't make real pianos go away, I doubt loop-based software is gonna do it. [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img]
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[quote]Originally posted by popmusic: [b]...but this software isn't about music... it's about audio. It's about training kids to become good at manipulating audio. It's Pro Tools for kids. The only way a manufacturer can sell this kind of software to non-techie parents is to make them think it's just like a musical instrument...[/b][/quote]\ Yes...bingo...my whole point...misleading the parents AND kids. Why would you want to teach kids about manipulating audio to "create" "music" if they haven't gotten any solid foundation in REAL music first? A "cart before the horse" mentality, and just false, cheap short cuts... ...fuck it. Some people just don't want to put in the time & effort...and they just want instant gratification. It's wrong to get kids hooked on that same mentality... all you parents that do that, will pay the price when those kids get older...some of you already know what I mean! [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]

miroslav - miroslavmusic.com

 

"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."

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Kids are resilient and info sponges. If you plant a seed, they'll either reject it or crave more of it. And only time will tell. Both of my kids are trained musicians, with great ears. Shortcuts never produce a good result whether it's in music, athletics, academics, or whatever. However, I am of firm mind that whatever I do for my kids that I feel is positive is definitely my business. My goal was to plant a seed, something they can cherish and pass to their own kids....my love of music.
Down like a dollar comin up against a yen, doin pretty good for the shape I'm in
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[quote]Originally posted by strat0124: [b]Both of my kids are trained musicians, with great ears.[/b][/quote] Cool!!! I kinda' missed the boat (well still not too late) with having kids. I always planned on passing the "gift of music" on to "my kids". Shit, if I had kids at an early age, by now they would be in the studio recording/jammin' with me!!!

miroslav - miroslavmusic.com

 

"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."

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This product is nothing new from Sonic Foudry. It's just a dumbed down version of ACID that sells for $29. BTW, you can use ACID Xpress for FREE right now, so there is nothing stopping kids from using this type of technology today. Like Craig, I would also rather have my kids arranging loops then to have them glued to a Playstation. They probably just changed the name because they realized that parents aren't going to be too thrilled about buying their 8-yeard children a program named after an illegal hallucinogen ;-). -Dylan
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[quote] Shit, if I had kids at an early age, by now they would be in the studio recording/jammin' with me[/quote] Ehm. [url=http://www.mp3.com/littlevictor] Click here to hear little victors self-produced hit \"Pitta Pitta Psst\"[/url] [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] (N.b. he is actually 6 now and has made more tracks, I need to update that page!) /Z
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[quote]Originally posted by Anderton: [b]<> Bingo. Programs like this are GREAT -- do you think we're better off as musicians if kids play with Super Duper Looper or play with Game Boys? It gets them into music, just like the keyboards with the keys that light up. Some will become bored. Some will get more interested and want to do more. But the main thing is that Sonic Foundry is helping to create an audience that will be able to appreciated GOOD loop-based music because they'll know what's involved in making it. And they'll be able to differentiate between the "put-it-together-in-15-minutes-to-make-some-bucks" artists and those who genuinely love what they do and do it from the heart. Any thing that makes kids want to play music is good.[/b][/quote] Craig - I agree with you 100% - - My kids LOVE to play with ACID, and if doing it gets them involved with recording sound and making loops, that's great. (I don't really see a need for a 'dumbed-down' version - the regular one is simple enough). They don't make music, but they do make some pretty interesting collages of their own - generally, vocal outtakes from Monty Python, South Park (no, they're not *young* kids), and miscellaneous cartoons ("Yogi, the ranger won't like it"). The sound sort of reminds me of FIresign Theatre at times... - Philbo Tangent Music
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[quote]Some people just don't want to put in the time & effort...and they just want instant gratification. It's wrong to get kids hooked on that same mentality... all you parents that do that, will pay the price when those kids get older...some of you already know what I mean![/quote] I couldn't agree more...it's about problem solving...my kid sits at the piano frustrated as hell at times but he keeps climbing back up and gets better everytime ([b]He's only 2 years old![/b]). Same thing with his Drums. I think this kind of development...PATIENCE is very important...I'm very proud of my Son, his drive to learn is incredible. He does have a machine that makes music with a touch of a button...he got bored of it pretty quick and I don't see the same look of accomplishment after he's made noises with it. To me it's kinda like TV vs. Books...teach your children to read properly...it takes Patience but they get so much more out of it. The TV is little more than a distraction.
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I have to admit I haven't made my mind on this issue yet. I used to think the only 'proper' way to learn music was through the traditional means (learn piano, guitar, a woodwind instrument) etc, but starting with something like ACID is BS. But talking to people recently has made me a little more open minded in this issue. I have many friends who started learning piano, and gotten turned off from music, even after years of playing, becuase the lessons were just plain dull. If they had options of how to get into music, would it be different? (I don't know) I had a lot of friends taking piano lessons when I was younger, and some (only a few?/most?) of their teachers had a method of teaching that was total verbal and mental abuse. If 200 people start learning ACID, and 10 of those get bored of it and learn music, did you gain 10 future musicians, or did you loose 190 because of the instant gratification lure? Steve, you come from a 'musical' family, and you are able to guide your kid into music well based on your experience. A lot of parents can't do that. Buying a crappy upright and looking up a teacher's name in the yellow pages is not the best option, IMHO. My dad sat down with me to play on pianos. He taught me simple melodies on a shitty casio keyboard. He went to most of our concerts, drove us to practice. Are most parents capable/willing to do that? [b] I couldn't agree more...it's about problem solving...my kid sits at the piano frustrated as hell at times but he keeps climbing back up and gets better everytime (He's only 2 years old!). Same thing with his Drums. [/b] Kids are different! Some get frustrated and abandon it. If they start with something easier, is it wrong? (Again, I don't know. I'm just 'raising issues' [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] ) Patience is important, but people have different degrees of it. I don't watch that much TV, but I enjoy it. I like reading books. I'd hate to have only one of the 2 options. Growing up, my parents never restricted TV time, we had a VCR every since they became popular, and my parents said they would get a videogame if we wanted. Result? I was a total book worm, never cared much for TV, my brother never cared for TV either, we never got a videogame (never cared for them). Kids need limits to a certain extent, and guidance. But I do also think they deserve options, and are capable of making the *right* choice, whatever it is. Let's do an analogy. Are collages and simpler forms of painting less worthy than a 'real' painting with a canvas? Kids do collages with pictures all the time, it's fun and they learn something from it. Why can't we let kids do the same? Do they have to go to art school and learn to draw shapes in the correct proportion, know how balance colors, etc? A few months back I had to 'babysit' from some friends (dreaded experience, since I"ve never had kids). I stopped at an arts store and got some stuff to do glass etching. Dug around their parents garage and found some old bottles. They had a blast! Would I have been wrong to bring a laptop with the software and let them have some fun? [b]Why would you want to teach kids about manipulating audio to "create" "music" if they haven't gotten any solid foundation in REAL music first? A "cart before the horse" mentality, and just false, cheap short cuts...[/b] Why? because it's fun. because they are kids. Let kids be kids. If they are interested enough guide them in the right direction. [b] Some people just don't want to put in the time & effort...and they just want instant gratification. [/b] I agree. But can you blame the tools? I still think its up to the parents to steer the kids in the *right* direction. I think we live in a time of the 30 second attention span. Would those people be different if you gave them a piano instead of ACID? Would they be less searching for instant gratification? I don't know.

Korg Kronos X73 / ARP Odyssey / Motif ES Rack / Roland D-05 / JP-08 / SE-05 / Jupiter Xm / Novation Mininova / NL2X / Waldorf Pulse II

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