...and Happy Birthday to Robben Ford, too!

[Caevan O'Shite]

...and Happy Birthday to Robben Ford, too! December 16, 1951

[harvey]

[SEHpicker]

Happy Birthday Robben - one of my fav blues/jazz players

[whitefang]

Wasn't familiar with him until viewing the clips, and he's alright! So, thanks for that.

 

AND a happy birthday to him, too!

Whitefang

[Larryz]

Happy BD Robben! cool blues, man...

[Caevan O'Shite]

.

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____ [video:youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhBFlAviexw

 

 

____ [video:youtube]

 

 

____ [video:youtube]

 

 

Also dig the following:

 

Robben Ford Shares a Miles Davis Lesson

by Jude Gold & Robben Ford in association with Guitar Player Magazine

 

Guitar Player[/i] magazine & truefire.com, quoting Robben Ford]This is the great lesson I learned playing with Miles Davis, says Robben Ford, who toured with Davis in 1986. One night after a show, I was hanging out at the hotel bar with the keyboardist, Robert Irving III, and I asked him about these cool chords Id been hearing him play onstage during vamps and solos. So he went over to the piano and showed me this little harmonic systemthis devicethat Miles had showed him.

 

____ GP's Jude Gold demonstrates part of Robben Ford's "Miles Davis lesson"

 

____ [video:youtube]

[desertbluesman]

Happy Birthday Robbin Ford

[whitefang]

WAIT a minute!

 

Wasn't that a STRAT Robbin was playing all that TASTY JAZZ on with Miles?

 

And....wasn't it ME in a thread of mine about five or so years ago who claimed that a guitarist DIDN'T NEED a fat, hollow bodied guitar to play jazz? And that retailers and manufacturers who perpetuate that myth need to STOP IT??

 

THANK you!

 

AND, thank YOU, Caev, for the re-enforcement! Oh, and thank YOU too, Robbin....

Whitefang

[Fred_C]

Wasn't that a STRAT Robbin was playing all that TASTY JAZZ on with Miles?

 

And....wasn't it ME in a thread of mine about five or so years ago who claimed that a guitarist DIDN'T NEED a fat, hollow bodied guitar to play jazz? And that retailers and manufacturers who perpetuate that myth need to STOP IT??

 

Whitefang

 

This comment is specious to the point of being ludicrous. .

 

My first inclination was to compile an extensive list of jazz guitarists who play hollow and semi-hollow bodies. But I realized that would be too time consuming because they number in the hundreds.

 

Then I thought that I would mention the fact that the lesson is focused on playing a modal line over a vamp. But, it dawned on me that you probably don't have any insight into playing within modes or what a "vamp" is for that matter.

 

Then I thought that I would recommend actually learning the lesson, but that wouldn't work either because you can't read notation of any kind.

 

I also thought that I would discuss the differences in tonal character required for different sub-genres of jazz. Although it is possible to play any genre on anything with six strings, it is a matter of tonal appropriateness. So, while a Strat could be appropriate for a jazz/funk part like the one in the lesson, it would be totally inappropriate for playing jazz standards in chord melody style, or for "comping" a vocalist, or playing rhythm in a big band or combo setting. However, you would only disagree based upon your extensive knowledge of jazz guitar technique and sound.

 

So, I've decided not to respond at all. Because as one of my favorite comics, Lewis Black observed, "you can't fix stupid!"

 

 

[whitefang]

Boy----talk about "specious".

 

I'll look at it this way....

 

If Ford playing jazz on a Strat was good enough for MILES, well, then---who the F u c k are YOU?

 

Besides, I never claimed that you SHOULDN'T play jazz on a fat, hollow bodied mostrosity. Just that it wasn't always NECCESARY. After all, NObody ever discounted or dismissed ED BICKERT because he long time played very good and acceptable jazz on a TELECASTER!

 

As for tonal appropriateness, I often don't spent too much time on this forum because I get bored with the huge amount of space taken up with discussions about PEDALS. Seems there's a pedal available for accquiring any "sound" or "tone" one wishes to create. And I at least know enough to realize one can merely change the location of where he picks the strings to also create a change in tone.....closer to the bridge will sound much different than somewhere between the bridge and the neck.

 

Also, you don't need to be able to PLAY jazz to LOVE it.

 

And I usually joke around that I sing primarily in the key of "J". But, I DO appreciate a good singer. Even when I don't CARE for what they're singing.

 

Anyway; Merry Christmas........skidmark!

Whitefang

[SEHpicker]

It's good to witness the wonderful "Christmas Spirit" between gentle hearted forum members...LOL!

 

Relax guys. We're only hear for a little while.

[Larryz]

I remember some of the discussions over the years and I remarked that there are many youtube clips of great sounding jazz players using Tele's and Strats these days. I was told that there have always been some well known guys doing this and it wasn't all that new. Well for me Youtube is new! I stand by my comments; that it's more of the newer comers to jazz that are using solid body guitars these days. I also mentioned that if you bring a Tele or a Strat to a jazz club you'll be treated to the evil eye! They just don't fit in as well in the genre as a nice hollow body jazz box with a single neck humbucker. You'll not see any pedals and you will experience mellow tones (and yes, some flat wound strings too! even though some players still don't care for them)...I have to agree that if you review pictures of thousands of well know jazz players, the boxes I have described will be most prevalent. There's definitely a reason for it and if you ever get a chance to see it live by guys like Bucky Pizzarelli and Frank Vignola like I have, you'll know what I'm trying to describe...(also check out any of Robert Conti's Youtube clips).

 

Merry Christmas to you all and hope the old jazz standards continue to serve out those mellow tones for us...You'll notice the Strat and Tele boys using their front pickups in the clips too LOL!

 

 

[harvey]

@caev thanks for the lesson! I've seen that before but it reminded me to practise it a bit more.

 

If you hear Miles' "So What" it's the kind of thing the horns are doing over the head (played on double bass). Kinda stacked fourths. Love it

 

@Fred. I'm not sure what was so incendiary in Whitefang's post to warrant your heated response. Surely we can disagree respectfully around here without personal slurs.

[harvey]

Ronny Jordan uses those voicings in his solo (at around 0:20) and then, like Davis, during the head (around 3:25).

 

[whitefang]

I'll apologize for my outburst. AND the "skidmark" remark( HEY! I kinda like the POETICNESS of that!)

 

And to address Larry---Didn't THIS FORUM'S primary HERO---LES PAUL have to deal with much of the same thing when he introduced HIS concept of a NEW guitar?

 

Lest we forget, the long honored AND treasured Les Paul model from Gibson WAS originally designed for JAZZ USE.Besides,there are many hollow bodied guitars I like and lust after---

 

Remember also----There are many who could make a similar argument involving other genres...Many might argue that you HAVE to have a thin and SOLID bodied guitar, like a Stratocaster, in order to play Rock'n'Roll....OR you CAN'T be a legitimate "country picker" without a TELECASTER---or else, maybe a Gretsch(sic) of some kind.

 

Now, didn't we also just heap lots o' love on TED NUGENT on HIS birthday?

 

And, did HE make his mark with a Strat, Les Paul or a VOX or RICKENBACKER? Well, NO! IT was a GIBSON BYRDLAND he was pounding on in "Baby Please Don't Go" and "Journey To The Center Of The Mind"!

 

I remember seeing the group FROST, when THEY were just making a name, and DICK WAGNER and the OTHER guitarist( can't think of HIS name---) were BOTH kickin' it out on 335's! AND then, there's ALVIN LEE in "Woodstock". What was HE playing?

 

Yet, I have a friend, ALSO a jazz guitarist, who claims those AND bigger, deeper hollow bodies CAN'T be used for Rock Music because they're likely to cause too much feedback, or have TOO MUDDLED a sound., Now, he started his jazz "career" with a Ventures Mosrite, THEN a Gibson 335 "Stereo" and a HOWARD ROBERTS for a short while. He moved down to Florida several years ago, so I don't KNOW what he's using these days.

 

I don't know what set Fred off, either. Plus, I never hid the fact( in fact, I often made it a POINT to mention)that I can't read music, and skill wise, I'm barely above being a "hack". And I was also pretty sure that the good Caev probably posted those clips( that he also pointed out to me in a PM) because I claimed to have both an ignorance of Mr.Robbin Ford, AND his music. And I suppose Caev was just looking to forward information, and an introduction to Mr. Ford's work, NOT neccesarily provide a music lesson. I merely pointed out that Mr. Ford was PLAYING some very good sounding JAZZ GUITAR on something OTHER than some fat, hollow body "Herb Ellis" model, and also reminded older and long time forum members about me bringing up this topic quite some time ago in these forums, and Fred went off the deep end!

Whitefang

 

[Larryz]

I'm not arguing with you Fang, nor am I taking sides in your on-going problem discussing issues with Fred. I'm simply stating my opinion with regard to the big fat hollow body or the slimmer semi-hollow bodies with single humbucker pickups at the neck position, that are favored by most jazzers. You don't have to believe me, you can google up pictures of the most famous jazz musicians at your leisure. I agreed with you that you can play jazz quite well on a Tele or Strat. I haven't read that Les Paul developed the Les Paul for jazz, but I have no reason to doubt what you're saying. However, the Jazzmaster was developed by Leo for jazz players as a solid body guitar. It never caught on with them much like the Les Paul, and found it's way into rock and roll, much like those hollow bodied and semi-hollow bodied Gretschs. The 335 is like a blues/jazz cross-over SUV...I agree that you can play any genre on any guitar and do a great job of it. If you show up in a jazz club with a Tele, it will do a right smart job of fitting in, depending on who is playing it and if it's tone and sound fit in with the rest of the musicians. It's just that most jazzers have their own version of a jazz box and for good reason IMHO.

[SEHpicker]

Great breakthroughs and amazing innovations are often accomplished by bucking the accepted "norm". Look what Bela Fleck does with a banjo, or the way Stanley Jordan plays guitar - amazing stuff and definitely not the way Grampa did it.

Those guys and others make playing jazz on a tele seem passe'.

[whitefang]

As Les Paul was working AS, and widely KNOWN AS, a JAZZ GUITARIST at the time of his guitar's developement, I just assumed......

 

Again, I'm NOT insisting you SHOULDN'T use a fat, hollow body guitar for jazz, only that it isn't neccesary. And several well respected jazz guitarists have proven so.

 

MY bone of contention is that too many guitar makers and/or distributers perpetuate a myth that you MUST play jazz on one of those styles of guitars by marketing them as "JAZZ GUITARS", leading the gullible young LEARNER, wishing to BRANCH OUT into jazz, actually THINK he can't play that music on anything BUT what THEY claim is...a JAZZ GUITAR, as if it's NOT suited for anything else, which, of course, is NOT true!

 

And thanks anyway, for the condescention and patronization of suggesting I look up old photos of "jazz legends" to see that THEY plied their trade on fat, hollow bodied guitars. AS IF I didn't alREADY KNOW that! I mean, GIBSON didn't name those two models the HERB ELLIS and HOWARD ROBERTS because they thought the names sounded cool...

 

Also, if I could play jazz to any degree of acceptable competence, and was noticably rejected by a group of other jazz players if I showed up at a gathering for a jazz jam because I might come in with something OTHER than a fat hollow body, I'd have to assume it's NOT the MUSIC they take seriously...

Whitefang

[Larryz]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Les_Paul <---here's the Les Paul story according to Wiki. Looks like he was well known in other genres like country and blues as well as jazz. Also as a luthier and inventor...

 

At any rate, I can't agree with you more and there was no intention of being condescending or patronizing. I was simply pointing out that the big old jazz boxes can be seen in youtube clips and promo photos of most of the great jazz players and for good reason. Many of them had guitars with two humbuckers but the switch was usually in the neck position...You'll see more jazz boxes being used by the greats than Telecasters and Marshall stacks...(now that's condescending!)

[Scott Fraser]

MY bone of contention is that too many guitar makers and/or distributers perpetuate a myth that you MUST play jazz on one of those styles of guitars by marketing them as "JAZZ GUITARS", leading the gullible young LEARNER, wishing to BRANCH OUT into jazz, actually THINK he can't play that music on anything BUT what THEY claim is...a JAZZ GUITAR, as if it's NOT suited for anything else, which, of course, is NOT true!

Whitefang

 

Just my opinion, but I don't believe anybody is really perpetrating the stated myth. The 'gullible young learners' are going to emulate their heroes, & if that person's hero is Lenny Breau, they'll be jonesing for a Telecaster & trying to play Lenny's jazz licks on that. If someone else's hero is John Pizzarelli, they'll be looking for a 7 string hollow body archtop & ignoring pointy solid bodies. There's really not a conspiracy afoot.

[Larryz]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egs21b_N2tE <--- +1 Scott...I've posted this clip before but, here's Bucky and John on a pair of father and son 7 strings...

[whitefang]

Well, yeah Scott, there's that, but not everybody has a particular HERO in any or every genre of music. Someone might just wish to learn jazz, jazz structure, or jazz phrasing or something on that order. To try to sell unsuspecting young or uninformed consumers( and....THAT is the "conspiracy") a specific model of instrument by claiming to be either a "jazz" guitar, or "folk guitar"( and, I HAVE seen THAT as well!) will gear them into believing only a specific model or design of guitar is qualified for success in the ability to play this music. There ARE acoustic archtop guitars that work equally well in the presentation of folk music as well as a flat top "dreadnoughts" with a huge round sound hole can.

 

Now, I see nothing wrong with the well trained or well heeled and skilled guitarist who does well at playing jazz buying such a style of guitar. I just feel it would be more practical and prudent to discover whether or not he can obtain the skill or has the TALENT for such music before investing what could be a lot of money(in his case) in what one wishes to declare a "jazz" guitar.

 

Beides, emulating your hero is no guarantee of success. Hollywood was once filled with young rudementary skilled actors who looked and dressed like JAMES DEAN, who himself once learned that dressing like MARLON BRANDO did in one movie was no quick road to success. And how many would-be folk singers crowded Greenwich Village dressed in chamois jackets and little "Dutch boy" caps, JUST like DYLAN wore on his debut LP cover? Did THAT make them FOLK SINGERS?

Whitefang

 

[whitefang]

I'll post this last attempt and try to be taciturn about this matter for a while....

 

 

I'm secure in the knowledge that I'm NOT wrong when I state that one DOESN'T NEED a fat, hollow bodied guitar in order to play jazz music.

 

AND i don't understand WHY people feel the need to inform me of stuff I already know, which IS irrelevant, that many past and present jazz guitarists DO play their music on fat hollow bodied guitars. It's as if had I posted that nobody needs a fork to eat toaster waffles, they'd post links to websites that are RIFE with video clips of people eating toaster waffles with forks! Or they'd post, "President Obama eats toaster waffles with a fork, and so do all the congressmen on the hill!"

 

I do have a friend, a classically trained guitarist who now plays jazz, who did concede that yes, you CAN play jazz on practically any guitar made out there. But to HIS credit, he forwarded the following argument.....

 

"In many areas of jazz music, there are, or is, tones and a tone most look to achieve. Like many OTHER forms of music, jazz too, is laden with stereotypical attatchments. The fat hollow body guitar is one, for example. Too is that any guitar HAS to have some particular TONE, which he described as,,,"Mud-modal"---

 

He did also concede that this tone CAN be accomplished on just about any electric guitar given the proper adjustments of tone settings on both guitar and amp. But also pointed out, in which I'll gladly go along with, that this tone CAN be more easily achieved with very little effort on a fat hollow bodied, one pick-up so-called "jazz" guitar. Another is, well, he said he knew more than a few fellow "jazz men" who played EVERYthing in "octaves", ala Wes Montgomery, thinking that, "It ISN'T jazz unless you DO play this way!"

 

It all was making me fear, also, that this fine forum might turn into something akin to "Farcebook", or "Fakebook" (which is what I've taken to calling "Facebook" lately, due to my not encountering a larger collection of PHONIES and FAKERY anywhere else!) And based on my personal experience, a FREE exchange of ideas and/or self expression is NOT welcome if it means such expression or ideas fall outside of THEIR box. OR if, GOD FORBID, you should use a CUSS word or two in the proccess!

 

The day this forum offers "like" buttons and "friends" lists is the day I'm gone! I already have reservations about the use of an "auto censor".

 

As a final thought about the "jazz" stuff......

 

I don't care WHAT type of guitar someone plays this music on. I rather prefer to make opinions of it based on how WELL PLAYED I think it is, rather than WHAT it was PLAYED on.

 

Oh, and that's NOT ONLY jazz, either.....

 

I don't know how many of you will be tuning in until or until AFTER the holidays, so in the interest of well wishing, and tolerant inclusion----

 

HAPPY/MERRY HANNUKWANZMAS everyone!

Whitefang

[Larryz]

Don't try to get taciturn on us you anti-big-box-hollow-body that probably eats waffles with a spoon! Have a Merry Christmas, a Happy Holiday or a Festivas for the rest of us!

 

[Sharkman]

But can you play jazz on a toaster waffle? I'll bet you can't.

[harvey]

But can you play jazz on a toaster waffle? I'll bet you can't.

 

You can, but only plugged into a polytone amp. No exceptions!

 

[whitefang]

I take umbrage at being called "Anti big box hollow body". Nothing of the sort is true. THIS is why I fear this forum is turning into something akin to FAKEBOOK( or FACEBOOK, if you will).

 

I've posted stuff on that waste of time and watched helplessly as person after person turned what I posted into something it WASN'T, and soon, EVERYbody had it in for me over something I NEVER SAID!

 

What was most frustrating was, I ONLY post in PLAIN ENGLISH! And it's disheartening to discover HOW many Americans are increasingly having difficulty in understanding it!

 

But, no mind....I'll just capitulate and say I hope everyone has a "Merry/Happy Ramahannukwanzmas!" (thought I'd try to get 'em ALL in!)

Whitefang

[Larryz]

Instead of taking it as an offense, try taking it in the spirit of which it was intended (I.E. AS A JOKE!)...I have no idea of what goes on with Facebook or Twitter as I have never been on them and will try to continue steering clear until technology catches up with me again...Merry/Happy Ramahannukwanzmas!

[whitefang]

How about a humorous aside about WAFFELS?

 

In an old Charlie Chan movie, Chan, in France, atempts to get waffels for breakfast. The waiter, unfamiliar with the word, or dish, causes Chan to attempt to DRAW a picture of what waffels look like, hoping it will help.

 

The waiter rushes off only to return a bit later and hands Chan a book of CROSSWRD PUZZLES, and proudly announces, "Waff-ELLS!"

 

And in learning you do your best to AVOID both FAKEBOOK and TWIT-er only makes me have renewed respect for you, Larry!

Whitefang

[Larryz]

Thanks Fang, I knew you had a humorous side aside...